Over AGE 60 PILOTS TO FLY IN UNITED STATES

[General Lee]

Wow, they got a wavier ah? So I guess there is the possibility that we may also get a wavier Huh? Its called changing the rules to meet the needs of the current situation. It happens all the time and will also happen for Pilots. If it isnt this year it will be brought up again next year and then the year after that.

So you flew Dorks for the Midway connection? I was at the Midway main line. Did you flow through to the Mainline or werent you there long enough, just curious.

No flowthourgh for me. I did some odd jobs afterwards and then went to DL. My point is that if the ATC guys are limited to 60, for a job that is stressfull like ours at times, what makes you think the FAA or Congress etc. will allow a higher age retirement for airline pilots? I doubt it. Sure, things can change, rules can change, but that doesn't mean we will follow. I have a feeling ALPA will be against it, and will testify against it too. They do have a say, even if G4G5 doesn't think so. We shall see.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[pilotyip]

Raise it to 100

Seen on AOPA 91 year man solos last month, wanted learn to fly all his life, asked on what he wanted to do next, be an airline pilot. So we have to raise the age to 100 to accommodate his new pilot.

 

[jetfo]

I agree with you a lot, General, but I think you and a lot of other people that think the age 60 rule will stand are in for a rude awakening.

The government dropped the ball with pension reform YEARS ago, now they're going to have to live with it. The PBGC is going to require a Federal bailout, the aviation community is in shambles, and it is, in large, a product of failure of the Federal Government to pick a side. Either they side on "free enterprise" and stop bailing out airlines when they go belly-up and/or protecting airlines when working try to engage in self-help, OR the government decides to re-regulate the industry. Pick one, this mix and match of which rules apply to which airline isn't working - hasn't for the last 20+ years.

In this case, where you stand has a LOT to do with how involved you are and what you have to gain. If you're age 60, have no pension (or a $2,400 a month check and you were planning on $12,400 because YOU EARNED IT, IT WAS PART OF YOUR HOURLY COMPENSATION THAT A PORTION OF IT WENT TO YOUR PENSION, then you probably feel justified to keep working if you want to.

Similarly, you should be allowed to retire if you DESIRE at age 60. Megadeath, I hear you, I will HOPEFULLY be set enough to disappear at age 55, but if I'm not, it should be my choice to keep going to 60, 65, as long as I can hold the medical.

BonesF15, I think you're right on the mark. I see Congress, the Senate, and the President all signing legislation that allows an Age 65 pilot to fly, then I see the FAA stepping up and saying "Fine, but just like an EKG is required at certain age groups, we'll simply add to that list and past age 60 require a $1,500 physical every 6 months to keep going including stress EKG and EEG, cardio enzyme, tighter blood pressure ranges, etc, and rule out about 60-70% of the over-60 pilots anyway."

Don't think they'll be able to stop the FAA from doing that, which will have an added plus: if older pilots want to keep flying they'll have to keep themselves in better shape, reducing their health-care costs dramatically.

PurpleTail, the above should satisfy your safety concerns, and I agree with you completely, I see some age 40 pilots who scare the crap out of me - they look like a walking cardiac risk then they fly with 19 year old 400 hour wonder-kids and I'm thinking (I don't want my family on THAT airplane when his kicker cuts out).

The ICAO rule is set to go into effect whether anyone likes it or not. A lot of Indian and Chinese airlines will go to hiring age 60-63 pilots who have thousands of hours in the 747/757/767 A330/340 and simply convert their FAA licenses over to their own country's ICAO equivalent with an equivalency exam and the normal sims required for new-hires and those guys will start flying all over the world again. THAT'S the loophole for US pilots for now, and once the U.S. government (and the FAA) sees that there's no way to prohibit these guys and gals from doing it, they'll probably cave in.

No reason to shut the barn door AFTER the cows have exited the building. Age 65 is coming whether you like it or not, gentlemen.

Just to add to your excellent commentary, what justification will the FAA or the House and Senate have for denying US citizens the right to fly for a 121 carrier to age 65, if they permit 121 pilots from all other nations to do so in US airspace and to and from US airports?

The answer is that there is no justification and the law will have to be changed to be equitable, and if the Supreme Court decision is challenged again, it will be overturned!

As you pointed out, that will be accompanied by more rigorous medicals, and due to that and other factors, the impact will not be nearly as dramatic as some, like ALPA will have you believe.

Unless there is a substantial change, such as the bird flu pendemic or $200/barrel oil, there will be substantial increase in demand for air transportation and a concurrent need for pilots over the next 5-10 years, negating any major long term career impact on current 121 pilots.

Most if not all furloughed pilots will have the opportunity at recall with their respective carriers within the next three years, or they will have the opportunity to move to another major carrier. The growth by itself will soften the impact and a longer career will give more pilots the opportunity to move on to the largest aircraft and pay.

Let's look at the glass as half full and be cautiously optimistic

 

[Deadalus]

It's not a change for safety reasons. It's a change so you idiots that married multiple trophy wives can keep your new hoochie momas and vacation homes. It shouldn't be changed because of financial reasons. Get out so I don't have to keep baby sitting your stupid butts.

 

[jetfo]

Now that the ATC guys got a waiver to age 60, do you think they should go to 65 also? All we need are age 65 pilots and controllers asking eachother "What was that? Say again?" I think the move to age 60 for controllers will influence the age to stay at 60 for pilots.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Hopefully soon will will not be communicating over the radio and use data transmission instead!

No more "say again," "please confirm," etc. Don't worry General, we will still have young FO's to help the old geezers, after all isn't that what we are doing now ;-)

 

[jetfo]

It's not a change for safety reasons. It's a change so you idiots that married multiple trophy wives can keep your new hoochie momas and vacation homes. It shouldn't be changed because of financial reasons. Get out so I don't have to keep baby sitting your stupid butts.

I don't know about trophy wives, but a trophy girlfriend sounds good ;-)

As far as babysitting, I thought we babysat each other to cover each other's butts!

 

[Jim Smyth]

No flowthourgh for me. I did some odd jobs afterwards and then went to DL.

I also did odd jobs for 6 months after Midways demise (very rude time of my life!) and then got picked up by Southwest. Your going to like this. Last November I got my check from the banktrupcy court from Midway Airlines that went out of business in November of 1991! It wasnt much but more than I ever expected. Midway was in business for 13 years and in bankyrupcy for 14 years! I hope if they owed you anything you got your piece of the pie too.

Your only the second ex-Midway Pilot that I now know of that got picked up by Delta. They sure didnt take too many Midway Pilots.

I sure hope for all are sakes that things get better down the road for all the airlines and we can get back to the good times again with you guys setting the bar again. Best of luck over there at Delta.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Yes, I know, I was at Midway Connection in the early 90's and we had some of those guys on our E120s and D228s.

No they didn't. I was hired as a captain on the Dork because they ran out of people with sufficient Total Time to be covered by insurance. Sorry to raise the BS flag on you. The oldest person I flew with was a former CP from Britt and he was only in his 40's when I was in my early 20's.

I know the rules, and we had some very old retired old pilot engineers (ROPES) flying the 727FE and L1011 FE after age 60 too until we got rid of them.

Nice. Glad there are people around who are eager to "get rid" of their fellow pilots.

Regardless, we all know the rules and have known them since we got hired. ALPA will fight that rule, and most ALPA members are younger. Heck, we just got rid of 2300 senior pilots here at DL, and that is 2300 fewer votes to try to increase the age limit.

Hey Gen'l. How many fights has ALPA won in the past year? Past 2 years? Past 5 years? Do you see a pattern developing. I didn't think so.

Got rid of 2300? Oh you got 'em all right. They walk out the door with their full retirement and then you let them right back in so the company can save some training costs. All the while the furloughed and other people you claim will benefit from the continued discrimination against qualified pilots are sitting there planted on their thumbs. You're a regular bunch of Musketeers over there at DL, one for all... Yeah.

 

[Flopgut]

Keep living in denial. Change is coming and you will either help to form its new rules or you will be forced to live under someones elses rules, your choice. Starting in November you will have foriegn Pilots flying into US airspace that are over 60 years old. The US Pilots wont be far behind. Nothings perect in life now or in 1959 either. I have never heard anyone have a good idea on its transformation, but a gradial phase in would be a good start so nobody takes a big hit. YMMV

Change is OK. I want to avoid continuous change. I want to see some type of routine established as we retire you "boomers". Your generation has a history of "gleaning the fields" and I'm pretty sure once you get an initial favorable change, you'll be back for more. 65 is not likely to be adequate for you folks.

I'm in favor of putting age 60+ pilots in the right seat. It meets the JAA rule nicely and patterns the way age 60+ engineers were intergrated.

 

[Bringupthebird]

I'm in favor of putting age 60+ pilots in the right seat. It meets the JAA rule nicely and patterns the way age 60+ engineers were intergrated.

Which right seats? What equipment? What do you do when there's a furlough? What about stagnation and the impact this has on mid-level seniority F/O's who can't hold CA, but want to bid bigger equipment and can't? How about the F/O who can't hold a line because there's a new F/O senior to him? Who makes up his loss in pay? Are you going to re-write the CRM curriculum to address new CA's flying with former CA's?

Let's talk union politics. Suppose in order to placate the top tier of F/O's that may get a chance at CA by continuing the injustice known as AGE 60, you have a new demographic of F/O's: 1) Those who can't get off of reserve because of your scheme 2) Those who move up a little, but are still facing the glass ceiling of widebody equipment because of your scheme 3) F/O's who used to be CA's but are thrown a "bone" which still punished them for the crime of turning 60.

Can you imagine any of these people showing loyalty and allegiance to the CA's in the union? This civil war will result in roll call vote after roll call vote with the F/O's taking every possible opportunity they can to stick it to the greedy CA's that came up with and sold this idea to the FAA and congress.

Conversely, we can take this rare opportunity of burgeoning prosperity at the airlines and do away with Age 60 while upgrades due to expansion continue. If there ever was a time that this rule could be changed with the minimum of pain, it's now.

Flop, you need to return to Lav A and continue working this idea of yours out, bud.

 

[Flopgut]

Which right seats? What equipment? What do you do when there's a furlough? What about stagnation and the impact this has on mid-level seniority F/O's who can't hold CA, but want to bid bigger equipment and can't? How about the F/O who can't hold a line because there's a new F/O senior to him? Who makes up his loss in pay? Are you going to re-write the CRM curriculum to address new CA's flying with former CA's?

Let's talk union politics. Suppose in order to placate the top tier of F/O's that may get a chance at CA by continuing the injustice known as AGE 60, you have a new demographic of F/O's: 1) Those who can't get off of reserve because of your scheme 2) Those who move up a little, but are still facing the glass ceiling of widebody equipment because of your scheme 3) F/O's who used to be CA's but are thrown a "bone" which still punished them for the crime of turning 60.

Can you imagine any of these people showing loyalty and allegiance to the CA's in the union? This civil war will result in roll call vote after roll call vote with the F/O's taking every possible opportunity they can to stick it to the greedy CA's that came up with and sold this idea to the FAA and congress.

Conversely, we can take this rare opportunity of burgeoning prosperity at the airlines and do away with Age 60 while upgrades due to expansion continue. If there ever was a time that this rule could be changed with the minimum of pain, it's now.

Flop, you need to return to Lav A and continue working this idea of yours out, bud.

No one got into this business to be a semi permanent FO. No one. Additionally, there are currently NO career expectations for a 121 pilot past 60, so anything is a gift. An age 60+ pilot should be allowed to fly at the discretion of the rest of the pilot group. (Frankly, they should be re-interviewed) Surplus them to the bottom of the list below furloughs, or let them be intergrated with the new hires. If they can't get along with the captain or don't like their new situation, it can be handled exactly how it is currently dealt with. Its really no big deal, most of the age 60+ engineers I have worked with have been great. It is really their opportunity to display a degree of exemplary professionalism that is pretty rare. Most contributed to a very well run flight deck and elevated the abilities of those around them. Others fell asleep and ran the center tank dry!

Doesn't sound like your going to be equal to that degree of professionalism. The "rare opportunity" as you call it, is actually a low tide moment in this business when some pilots have been completely forsaken in deep furlough, or might be getting shot at in the desert, and mgt. can abuse pilot labor horribly. Now is the time when some want to help others get a fair share, and some like you want to continue whipping those who are down.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

That way when SWA starts flying international they can hire some captains with that sort of experience and staff them above you. They can be paid more than you, get better vacations than you, have more of the holidays off than you get, and enjoy more time with their families than you.

Let's pretend that you are right in that SWA will fly international. Why....oh why would they need to bring in captains with that sort of experience? There are already pilots at SWA with that experience. and, if they are senior enough, they could fly the international stuff...as Captains.

Other airlines have started flying international after having only domestic operations....the one I knew of went straight seniority. I personally wouln't bid international....my arse is only good for a 2.9-3.1 leg.

Tejas

 

[Bringupthebird]

No one got into this business to be a semi permanent FO.No one

So when is your CA upgrade class? You did bid CA didn't you?

Keep working on those schemes. I know deep inside is an great idea just waiting to get out. Just don't push too hard and have a stroke, we need you here.

 

[Flopgut]

Let's pretend that you are right in that SWA will fly international. Why....oh why would they need to bring in captains with that sort of experience? There are already pilots at SWA with that experience. and, if they are senior enough, they could fly the international stuff...as Captains.

Other airlines have started flying international after having only domestic operations....the one I knew of went straight seniority. I personally wouln't bid international....my arse is only good for a 2.9-3.1 leg.

Tejas

I can't wait to see day one at Mexico City for SWA. Not pretty.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Keep doing 6 legs a day for 20 more years, and I bet you will look great and feel great!

What is it that makes you think that the trips at SWA have 6 legs a day? there are some that do...and if a pilot wants them, they are there....but I don't fly those kind of trips...and I know lots of guys who don't touch them either.

Tejas

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Do you want a 61 year old fireman carrying you down a burning staircase?

What if he was the only fireman that showed up? Then what?

Tejas

 

[Tejas-Jet]

I can't wait to see day one at Mexico City for SWA. Not pretty.

Are you gonna be there that day? Won't be a problem for me, I've been there before...plus , I'm bi-lingual.

Tejas

 

[Flopgut]

Are you gonna be there that day? Won't be a problem for me, I've been there before...plus , I'm bi-lingual.

Tejas

OK. I meant that to be more a jab at Jim's vision of his own "super seniority" than a jab at SWA's ability to fly international. But you have to admit, if you've been there or CUN, CZM, or SJD, "SWA derby" isn't going to easily translate to one runway, no taxiway, full proceedure airports. Throw a few heavies in the mix...I don't know...It'll be crazy.

 

[Flopgut]

So when is your CA upgrade class? You did bid CA didn't you?

Keep working on those schemes. I know deep inside is an great idea just waiting to get out. Just don't push too hard and have a stroke, we need you here.

Thanks, for the word of caution. I've been practicing by making submerged fecal oragamies of what I'm sure you look like.

BTW, an upgrade for myself is real close. Thats not going to change my mind on this issue. I'm sure thats hard for you to imagine.

 

[General Lee]

No they didn't. I was hired as a captain on the Dork because they ran out of people with sufficient Total Time to be covered by insurance. Sorry to raise the BS flag on you. The oldest person I flew with was a former CP from Britt and he was only in his 40's when I was in my early 20's.



Nice. Glad there are people around who are eager to "get rid" of their fellow pilots.



Hey Gen'l. How many fights has ALPA won in the past year? Past 2 years? Past 5 years? Do you see a pattern developing. I didn't think so.

Got rid of 2300? Oh you got 'em all right. They walk out the door with their full retirement and then you let them right back in so the company can save some training costs. All the while the furloughed and other people you claim will benefit from the continued discrimination against qualified pilots are sitting there planted on their thumbs. You're a regular bunch of Musketeers over there at DL, one for all... Yeah.

I guess I have to explain it all over again. The reason we brought back some early retired guys was because ALPA enforced the contract allowing only 24 hours notice to retire. So, at the end of each month, guys would take a look at the Gatt rate one more time and possibly bail out. If we lost 400 guys in one month, which was very possible, then we could conceivably lose all of the 777 captains and 767 captains, all in 24 hours, which would ground the fleets. Would that have helped our financial situation? Nope. So, we had to either drop the 24 hour required notice for something longer to get a bid out, or allow some guys below age 60 to come back for a set amount of time, and those guys were mainly check airmen who could give IOEs to new captains. But, you never thought of this type of situation, and instead opened your big mouth without thinking.

And, I saw some very senior pilots at Connection. I was told by one of my first Brasilia Captains that we had some near or over 60. If they left before you got there, then great. I have no clue what happened to them.

And, without ALPA, how would most of us do with contract negotiations? I bet you would be a great negotiator....... Yeah right.

Those 2300 pilots leaving DL was good for those guys, getting some of their promised pension, and great for the rest of us still around. We all got something, some got cash, some got to stay and not get furloughed or got recalled. We recalled about 900 people due to the retirements. Get your facts straight.

Bye Bye--General Lee