Over AGE 60 PILOTS TO FLY IN UNITED STATES

[Chest Rockwell]

Yes, I know, I was at Midway Connection in the early 90's and we had some of those guys on our E120s and D228s. I know the rules, and we had some very old retired old pilot engineers (ROPES) flying the 727FE and L1011 FE after age 60 too until we got rid of them. Regardless, we all know the rules and have known them since we got hired. ALPA will fight that rule, and most ALPA members are younger. Heck, we just got rid of 2300 senior pilots here at DL, and that is 2300 fewer votes to try to increase the age limit.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I do not recall anyone at Midway Connection who was over 60 years of age.

 

[General Lee]

I do not recall anyone at Midway Connection who was over 60 years of age.

When I started there were a couple. One was in the training department.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[The Prussian]

Hmmmmm...I sense a lot of BS being slung around on this thread....(??!?)

 

[Flopgut]

flobgut, I planned on working way pass 60 when I was going to work for ACA in 1996, but the one rule for everyone of 1994, took that option away. So don't give me anyone flying today knew the rule.

Oh, yeah....let me clarify that. Pilots flying FAR 121. Good catch, I should have realized someone would make the stretch to project FAR 135 onto this. Gosh, I admire you. You may return the car key to your ear and continue drilling out wax.

 

[Chest Rockwell]

When I started there were a couple. One was in the training department.

Bye Bye--General Lee

None whoever flew the line were over 60. Check the seniority list.

 

[General Lee]

None whoever flew the line were over 60. Check the seniority list.

I am pretty sure they were over 60, but maybe they were just close. A captain of mine on the E120 told me that we had a couple, and I guess he got that wrong too. I was aware of the regs, so that is why I remember that. I never asked them, though. Crazy.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Flopgut]

When rules that were put into place no longer apply to the current situation they are changed! Look at all the laywers there are in this country to make sure this continually happens. The rule that was put into place in 1959 no longer applies since people live much longer, are much healthier and have to work longer to get there retirement benefits respectively at 62,65 and 67. The age rule will change whether you like it or not, its just a matter of time. The more airlines that disolve there pension obligation will just strenten the pace at which it gets changed. IMO the younger Pilots would be better off to try to get a gradial phase in of age rather than taking an immediate 5 year hit!

If the rule of 59 is no longer appicable, then maybe seniority is no longer applicable? Because it has no less been a rule since 59. Even with the extraordinary staffing dynamic you've experienced at SWA, strict seniority has been the baseline. I'm glad to hear you conceed that this is an "immediate 5 year hit"; maybe we can continue to find middle ground.

Safety and seniority can be argued similiarly. To the extent one can argue that age does not affect safety, it can also be argued that the most senior is not always the safest. So if we profoundly overhaul this profession's seniority makeup, should we not overhaul the degree to which seniority prevails? Because as it is, seniority is everything, and this rule change simply gives it away with blatant disregard to effect. That blatant disregard for any effect is what makes this possible change a (at least partially) safety detriment. Maybe HR Diva would comment on abandoning seniority please?

You assert the career has changed and a retirement age increase will help all of us. We all live longer, are healthier, have lost pensions, and will have to wait longer for entitlement benefits etc. (your words) And you want to help the career out so lets follow through with it fully. Lets go with rostering and equipment assignments! That way when SWA starts flying international they can hire some captains with that sort of experience and staff them above you. They can be paid more than you, get better vacations than you, have more of the holidays off than you get, and enjoy more time with their families than you.

How does that sound? Sounds like crap to me and I would hate to see you force fed a poop sandwich like that. But hey, thats what the age change does to someone junior to you, and your comfortable with that. Wouldn't the easy answer be to keep age 60?

 

[Jim Smyth]

Wouldn't the easy answer be to keep age 60?

Keep living in denial. Change is coming and you will either help to form its new rules or you will be forced to live under someones elses rules, your choice. Starting in November you will have foriegn Pilots flying into US airspace that are over 60 years old. The US Pilots wont be far behind. Nothings perect in life now or in 1959 either. I have never heard anyone have a good idea on its transformation, but a gradial phase in would be a good start so nobody takes a big hit. YMMV

 

[General Lee]

Keep living in denial. Change is coming and you will either help to form its new rules or you will be forced to live under someones elses rules, your choice. Starting in November you will have foriegn Pilots flying into US airspace that are over 60 years old. The US Pilots wont be far behind. Nothings perect in life now or in 1959 either. I have never heard anyone have a good idea on its transformation, but a gradial phase in would be a good start so nobody takes a big hit. YMMV

Now that the ATC guys got a waiver to age 60, do you think they should go to 65 also? All we need are age 65 pilots and controllers asking eachother "What was that? Say again?" I think the move to age 60 for controllers will influence the age to stay at 60 for pilots.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Jim Smyth]

Now that the ATC guys got a waiver to age 60, do you think they should go to 65 also? All we need are age 65 pilots and controllers asking eachother "What was that? Say again?" I think the move to age 60 for controllers will influence the age to stay at 60 for pilots.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Wow, they got a wavier ah? So I guess there is the possibility that we may also get a wavier Huh? Its called changing the rules to meet the needs of the current situation. It happens all the time and will also happen for Pilots. If it isnt this year it will be brought up again next year and then the year after that.

So you flew Dorks for the Midway connection? I was at the Midway main line. Did you flow through to the Mainline or werent you there long enough, just curious.

 

[General Lee]

Wow, they got a wavier ah? So I guess there is the possibility that we may also get a wavier Huh? Its called changing the rules to meet the needs of the current situation. It happens all the time and will also happen for Pilots. If it isnt this year it will be brought up again next year and then the year after that.

So you flew Dorks for the Midway connection? I was at the Midway main line. Did you flow through to the Mainline or werent you there long enough, just curious.

No flowthourgh for me. I did some odd jobs afterwards and then went to DL. My point is that if the ATC guys are limited to 60, for a job that is stressfull like ours at times, what makes you think the FAA or Congress etc. will allow a higher age retirement for airline pilots? I doubt it. Sure, things can change, rules can change, but that doesn't mean we will follow. I have a feeling ALPA will be against it, and will testify against it too. They do have a say, even if G4G5 doesn't think so. We shall see.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[pilotyip]

Raise it to 100

Seen on AOPA 91 year man solos last month, wanted learn to fly all his life, asked on what he wanted to do next, be an airline pilot. So we have to raise the age to 100 to accommodate his new pilot.

 

[jetfo]

I agree with you a lot, General, but I think you and a lot of other people that think the age 60 rule will stand are in for a rude awakening.

The government dropped the ball with pension reform YEARS ago, now they're going to have to live with it. The PBGC is going to require a Federal bailout, the aviation community is in shambles, and it is, in large, a product of failure of the Federal Government to pick a side. Either they side on "free enterprise" and stop bailing out airlines when they go belly-up and/or protecting airlines when working try to engage in self-help, OR the government decides to re-regulate the industry. Pick one, this mix and match of which rules apply to which airline isn't working - hasn't for the last 20+ years.

In this case, where you stand has a LOT to do with how involved you are and what you have to gain. If you're age 60, have no pension (or a $2,400 a month check and you were planning on $12,400 because YOU EARNED IT, IT WAS PART OF YOUR HOURLY COMPENSATION THAT A PORTION OF IT WENT TO YOUR PENSION, then you probably feel justified to keep working if you want to.

Similarly, you should be allowed to retire if you DESIRE at age 60. Megadeath, I hear you, I will HOPEFULLY be set enough to disappear at age 55, but if I'm not, it should be my choice to keep going to 60, 65, as long as I can hold the medical.

BonesF15, I think you're right on the mark. I see Congress, the Senate, and the President all signing legislation that allows an Age 65 pilot to fly, then I see the FAA stepping up and saying "Fine, but just like an EKG is required at certain age groups, we'll simply add to that list and past age 60 require a $1,500 physical every 6 months to keep going including stress EKG and EEG, cardio enzyme, tighter blood pressure ranges, etc, and rule out about 60-70% of the over-60 pilots anyway."

Don't think they'll be able to stop the FAA from doing that, which will have an added plus: if older pilots want to keep flying they'll have to keep themselves in better shape, reducing their health-care costs dramatically.

PurpleTail, the above should satisfy your safety concerns, and I agree with you completely, I see some age 40 pilots who scare the crap out of me - they look like a walking cardiac risk then they fly with 19 year old 400 hour wonder-kids and I'm thinking (I don't want my family on THAT airplane when his kicker cuts out).

The ICAO rule is set to go into effect whether anyone likes it or not. A lot of Indian and Chinese airlines will go to hiring age 60-63 pilots who have thousands of hours in the 747/757/767 A330/340 and simply convert their FAA licenses over to their own country's ICAO equivalent with an equivalency exam and the normal sims required for new-hires and those guys will start flying all over the world again. THAT'S the loophole for US pilots for now, and once the U.S. government (and the FAA) sees that there's no way to prohibit these guys and gals from doing it, they'll probably cave in.

No reason to shut the barn door AFTER the cows have exited the building. Age 65 is coming whether you like it or not, gentlemen.

Just to add to your excellent commentary, what justification will the FAA or the House and Senate have for denying US citizens the right to fly for a 121 carrier to age 65, if they permit 121 pilots from all other nations to do so in US airspace and to and from US airports?

The answer is that there is no justification and the law will have to be changed to be equitable, and if the Supreme Court decision is challenged again, it will be overturned!

As you pointed out, that will be accompanied by more rigorous medicals, and due to that and other factors, the impact will not be nearly as dramatic as some, like ALPA will have you believe.

Unless there is a substantial change, such as the bird flu pendemic or $200/barrel oil, there will be substantial increase in demand for air transportation and a concurrent need for pilots over the next 5-10 years, negating any major long term career impact on current 121 pilots.

Most if not all furloughed pilots will have the opportunity at recall with their respective carriers within the next three years, or they will have the opportunity to move to another major carrier. The growth by itself will soften the impact and a longer career will give more pilots the opportunity to move on to the largest aircraft and pay.

Let's look at the glass as half full and be cautiously optimistic

 

[Deadalus]

It's not a change for safety reasons. It's a change so you idiots that married multiple trophy wives can keep your new hoochie momas and vacation homes. It shouldn't be changed because of financial reasons. Get out so I don't have to keep baby sitting your stupid butts.

 

[jetfo]

Now that the ATC guys got a waiver to age 60, do you think they should go to 65 also? All we need are age 65 pilots and controllers asking eachother "What was that? Say again?" I think the move to age 60 for controllers will influence the age to stay at 60 for pilots.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Hopefully soon will will not be communicating over the radio and use data transmission instead!

No more "say again," "please confirm," etc. Don't worry General, we will still have young FO's to help the old geezers, after all isn't that what we are doing now ;-)