Over AGE 60 PILOTS TO FLY IN UNITED STATES

[Boeingman]

Boeingman, Flop could have upgraded already (eligible anyhow) but has chosen not to. Don't shed a tear for the lazy.

I noticed that. It must be part of this new entitlement society we live in today. Poor Mr. WhineyFOFlopgut has to jerk gear by his choice. I am positive he can upgrade already but it just doesn’t suit him.

The other master of "free-verse" is, too, in denial. This God's gift calls everyone with a difference of opinion a "scab" & "johny jet jock" while his 15-page epic's are as much of a "diatribe" & as much "condescending" as he claims others to be.

This is the second time you have chimed in with an asinine reply based on my reply to a sarcastic comment made about and to me. I guess if you are considering me a gods gift, I would consider you and your ilk gods penance.
Now moving on, no idiot, I don’t call everyone a scab. I referred to Flop gut as "sounding" like a scab. The Johnny Jet Jock was a reply to a continued barrage of accusations that us "old geezers" need to be saved continuously from such herculean efforts by pilots like Belly. And you as well I suppose.

For those with a mental capacity and ability to think above the level of an ant, can easily see this. I am not really sorry that your dim witted mind can not come up a reasoned difference.

Those on furlough can't afford to buy a scale model of L-39 while he claims to joy ride his real one.

Wouldn’t matter even if I didn't work for the airline sonny. The L39 wasn’t purchased on my airline salary. Further, when I bought it, it was no more expensive than a well equipped single engine aircraft. Are you going to cry and moan that no one should be able to own a toy because your own career decisions or the industry went down the toilet? Life isn't fair. The sooner you realize that the things like jealousy and envy become easier to deal with.

Now if you want a scale model of my airplane, I can order one for you as I had one made and it is in my office right now. You’re on furlough? I’m looking for someone who will do a good wax job on her. Interested? I’ll pay you a little above minium wage, and if you do a real good job, you can have the model? Deal?

Your whining mocks others on furlough who do not bemoan others for their success. I was furloughed once and it didn't bother me that others worked to pull themselves out of their financial abyss. What is your excuse?

Another fine example of, "F*** you, I got mine!"

And your example is "I am a whiner and going to complain about anyone more successful that I am". Sort of like the principles of communism. I make no apologies for my success outside of the airline. If you don’t like that principle I suggest then your above statement apply’s nicely from me to you personally.

So why all the bitterness crosscut? Does you name signify a mistake made during your circumcision at birth?

Alright boringman ... I'll write back.

I am thrilled.

The fact is a disproportionate number of general aviation old farts are crashing airplanes and killing people. No doubt SOME of these accidents have been attributed to the diminished mental capacity associated with aging. I'm willing to bet there are similar rates of dementia and mental degradation occurring in both populations (general aviation and airline pilot). After talking to numerous other airline pilots, I'm confident ONE of the major reasons old geezer airline pilots don't crash nearly as often as their general aviation brethren is due to timely safety intervention by their first officers.

To deny that: vision deteriorates with age, reflexes slow, mental acuity slows, memory is impaired, hearing declines, etc... is foolish. Age 60 is an appropriate accommodation to mandate retirement in the interest of safety.

You really should stop your arguments based on arrogance. Your attitude of iamtogoodtobeafirstofficerasiamagiftfromgodtoaviationandnooneisbetteratflyingariplanesthaniam
because they make you look ignorant and immature. Have you discussed these numerous incidents with your union or professional standards?

That being said, what you are saying has a shred of validity and is obvious that mental and physical abilities degrade over time. However my question to you is at what point does that actually affect safety? At what point other than an arbitrary age based on nothing but a handshake in the fifties supports your theory and ass umptions? Your unscientific perceived herculean efforts that must save every UPS flight you are on doesn’t really cut it, and like flopgut, makes you look like you are grasping.

The study comparing GA pilots to pt. 121 pilots as an argument is absurd and you know it. If you believe that study you must really have low expectations and abilities with the overall 121 environment or the one in which you operate. How many of those accidents were VFR CFIT at night? VFR? Single pilots ops? Poor training environment or lack of established recurrancy? Medical standards or lack of actual certification? Maintenance related?

Now as for your continued physical descriptions of "old geezers". I am not sure what you are talking about. Maybe all the years of night flying at UPS produces these types you fly with so you are in essence looking at your future. But perhaps you need to pick some better partners at the steam baths you frequent. The real airline guys you mock and childishly describe are few and far between.

Now go die your hair and soak your dentures pops!

Hair looks good partly grey. I also have all my original teeth.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

There are several 55+ age pilots who scare the ratsh*t out of me. They self-certify and the FAA signs off on them

OK....so tell us if you will....what did you do about those pilots that scared "the ratsh*t out of " you?

Did you report them to your Professional Standards? Or your Chief Pilot? Or the VP of Flight Ops? your company's POI? The FAA?

If you know this, and something happens...with one of those age 55+ pilots that have scared the ratsh*t out of you...and you know you could've stopped it from happening....how would you feel about that?

Don't be like Moussaoui....you know its out there...you need to make some calls today....NOW....QUICKLY...DO IT !!!!

Tejas

 

[Phaedrus]

In a completely unrelated topic, Holy K-rap Boeing! If your posts are indicative of your verbosity in general then I have great sympathy for your passengers.
Just kidding. Type on, John Donne, type on!

 

[Lear70]

OK....so tell us if you will....what did you do about those pilots that scared "the ratsh*t out of " you?

Did you report them to your Professional Standards? Or your Chief Pilot? Or the VP of Flight Ops? your company's POI? The FAA?

If anything happens on one of OUR flights, I call Pro Standards.

If it happens on Northwest, I forward it to a friend of mine on the MEC at Northwest and leave it to him to deal with.

If it happened on another airline (it hasn't yet), it'd have to be pretty agregious to make me track down an MEC member I didn't know and, as someone HE doesn't know, proceed to tell them about something one of their pilots did. Probably wouldn't go very far...

That said, it's only happened 3 times, once on our aircraft and twice on Northwest, so they're relatively isolated events and the above-described channels have worked for me.

I always believe in taking things to Pro Standards first. It's polite, professional, and lets the system work from within. Repeated problems and Pro Standards is supposed to take it to the company for retraining / evaluation. The system works.

 

[Clyde]

I think the moral of this whole topic should be how to retire comfortably. I understand that there are some out there who have to work past age 60 because of some financial hardships during their careers. However, for a lot of us, we shouldn't have to work to 65 in order to retire.

Don't let anyone but yourself dictate when you can retire. On paper, figure out how you can retire early (pre-60 or pre-65) and make it happen. At my company, if one lives below their means and invests wisely, a person can retire after 20 years even if they never leave the right seat. I'm going to get raises with seniority and upgrades, but I have conservatively planned on how to retire comfortably if my pay never left my current paygrade.

If you are early in your career, don't let Congress or the FAA dictate when you have to retire. Let them set a mandatory retirement age and let you set your retirement date.

 

[Boeingman]

In a completely unrelated topic, Holy K-rap Boeing! If your posts are indicative of your verbosity in general then I have great sympathy for your passengers.
Just kidding. Type on, John Donne, type on!

LOL!!!, nah my PA's are quick and to the point.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Well....what does a over 60 pilot do right now for a 1st class? Why change anything where thats concerned.

The point of my post was that the pro-Age 60 defenders cite safety as their rationale. When they cry foul at higher medical standards across the board (which could add some marginal degree of safety albeit at a very high cost) their safety argument becomes quite specious.

 

[ivauir]

So then its not about my greed then is it since I am already topped out at the 12+ year pay scale at our company?
But you get to stay their an extra 5 years/
My comments were aimed at the few that continually keep ripping on me in here. You try to use logic and try to make compromises or offer constructive ideas that may benefit everyone. But then you get the comments about keeping your orginal wife ( I only had and still have just 1). Buying your second home ( I only have 1). Making good investments ( I have lived within my means my whole career).
First I hope you don't hink I'm ripping in to you. I respectfully disagree with your position. I cannot recall any compromises you have offered (maybe you did and I missed it)- I offered over 60 in the right seat and was completely ignored.
But all alot of the younger guys see is getting into the left seat and maybe having to wait a few more years to get there if its does go to 65. Most Pilots attitudes to this issue start to change around 40 years old.
You scoff at our perspective, but maybe if you could see it from our point of view we could come up with a compromise that the whole group could support and then you changewould have a much better chance.
If they made it 65 I would probably only go to 62 (current situation) when my Social security kicks in unless I dont have any medical coverage at that time which would probably force me to go to 65. Medical is a hugh deal to me. I have seen lots of bad things happen to people over my life in reguards to health and if you arnt covered you loose big time. Now I am sure the same smart A$$es will come in and say then go buy some. I have health insurance with my work and will buy it if and when its needed and not a moment sooner.

All these guys say they want the change, but won't stay much past 60. I don't buy it. In the heat of the moment with the temptation that fat paycheck dangling I bet almost all stay. There are great reasons to change the rule, but why should one generation reap the full benefit at everyone else's expense?

 

[Occam's Razor]

The point of my post was that the pro-Age 60 defenders cite safety as their rationale. When they cry foul at higher medical standards across the board (which could add some marginal degree of safety albeit at a very high cost) their safety argument becomes quite specious.

I think you misunderstand the argument.

The argument is that the current testing and standards (none and none) are adequate because age is not a statistically significant contributing factor in Pt 121 mishaps. Age 60 is a low enough age to preclude the requirement for standards and/or testing.

The status quo is safe. Changing the age limit would require more testing...and that is not good.

 

[Boeingman]

Changing the age limit would require more testing.

Says who?

 

[32LT10]

LOL!!!, nah my PA's are quick and to the point.

Do you tell them about your Big Watch, L-39, Citation, Investments and some other verbose BS .

Ever wonder why you never fly with the same F/O twice?

 

[32LT10]

Says who?

ALPA took a poll and the old gompers lost. You CO guys wanted to be forgiven and ALPA let you back in. Do you not support your association and what the majority of the membership wanted? That is right, it is all about you. I keep forgetting what I am dealing with.

 

[Boeingman]

The Brain Surgeon Is Back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you tell them about your Big Watch, L-39, Citation, Investments and some other verbose BS .

Ever wonder why you never fly with the same F/O twice?

Now that is odd I seem to see the same guys on a regular basis. Is this something you speak from experience Brain Surgeon? I wouldn't know this problem.

I love the jealousy that drips with each of your posts. You asked for it and you got it. I want to thank you for making my point as well.

P.S. It just dawned on me that my Aero has the same dark green color stripes as your envy. Imagine that!

 

[Bringupthebird]

I think you misunderstand the argument.

The argument is that the current testing and standards (none and none) are adequate because age is not a statistically significant contributing factor in Pt 121 mishaps. Age 60 is a low enough age to preclude the requirement for standards and/or testing.

The status quo is safe. Changing the age limit would require more testing...and that is not good.

Any safety issue regarding age must be viewed as a health issue. If these Age 60 proponents champion the cause of safety (actually, " the world would be safer if I was captain") then they must also advocate stricter medical standards for all pilots. Why stop with just kicking out the old guys? Why not fat guys with high cholesterol? Why not disallow all special issuance medicals and waivers? Why not bring back 20/20 vision?

The answer is simple. They cannot hide behind the safety straw man. They use the defense when it suits them and abandon it when it doesn't. The sixty-year-old of today in no way resembles the sixty-year-old of 1958. In fact to gain an actuarial equivalent you would have a retirement age of 71, so 65 is no great stretch.

We can't pretend that advances in health and medicine haven't been made since 1958. And it is proper that the retirement age will be raised over and over, or simply replaced with a medical and skills-based testing to reflect these advances while insuring public safety. Raising the retirement age to 65 doesn't solve everything, but it is a small, very small step in the right direction.

 

[Boeingman]

ALPA took a poll and the old gompers lost. You CO guys wanted to be forgiven and ALPA let you back in. Do you not support your association and what the majority of the membership wanted? That is right, it is all about you. I keep forgetting what I am dealing with.

I'd like to see that poll today after the NWA and DAL bankruptcies. I would also like to see how the retirees that you and yours hosed would vote today if they would have known then what some of the backstabbers like yourself planned on doing to them. All in the name to save your skins...right I forgot your excuse du joir.

Thats right, I forgot what I am dealing with. A pathetic little man that has no life outside of Uni...er YONITED. You gladly bent over for not one, but two paycuts while screwing your peers who left a legacy for you to destroy.

As far as ALPA, I never asked nor needed to be forgiven. Fact is, ALPA came groveling back to CAL. With ilk like yourself in the association, it is hard to suport anything with ALPA these days.