Organization Of Black Airline Pilots

[Caveman]

I agree. However, the root of the problem is inner city black adults have abdicated any and all responsibility for the raising of their children. It's not racism that's the problem, it's black urban culture that's the problem.

OBAP is treating the symptom. Instead of attacking the problem at the source they attempt to put a bandaid on it by getting preferential hiring or by motivating the kids. I like the idea of motivating kids but abhor ANY preferential hiring. I'd be more impressed by OBAP if they were in the trenches demanding that urban black adults start raising their kids appropriately. Until all of us start doing that nothing will change. They'll keep pumping out kids, they'll keep abondoning them physically and mentally, and they'll keep hollering racism. We need to address the real problem not the negative outcomes created by the problem.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Caveman....

I'd be more impressed by OBAP if they were in the trenches demanding that urban black adults start raising their kids appropriately. Until all of us start doing that nothing will change. They'll keep pumping out kids, they'll keep abondoning them physically and mentally, and they'll keep hollering racism.

agreed.... How?

and while we are working on inplementing how... is what OBAP doing...ok?

 

[Caveman]

Try this on for size. Mind your own business and try running your own life and stop acting like you know what's best for everyone else or every other race.

I am minding my own business. I generally stick to my functional lily white, conservative christian neighborhood and stay away from the dysfunctional war zone that most inner cities have become. Inner city blacks are not tending to their own business and that's why their culture is in complete chaos.

I have no obligation or desire to help until you get your own house in order. Stay in school, stop teenage pregnancies, get a job and stop shooting each other over 'respect'. It's not hard to get ahead in America. Here's a fool proof plan:

1. Graduate high school.
2. Don't get pregnant or get someone else pregnant.
3. Don't get married until one of three things happens:
a. Graduate college
b. Serve one enlistment in the military
c. Graduate from a trade school
4. Keep debt to a minimum (student loans o.k.)

If anyone follows this plan they'll be about 22 and off to a good start. It doesn't require any wealth. All it requires is the desire and discipline to do some real basic things. Until inner city black culture embraces this kind of thinking they are screwed. The main reason white America is successful is because more of us follow this plan than inner city blacks do. It has nothing to do with racism. It's all about personal responsibility and each community's willingness to stand up and say "Hey! That behavior is inappropriate! Stop it!"

 

[Caveman]

Caveman....



agreed.... How?

and while we are working on inplementing how... is what OBAP doing...ok?

How? See the above post.

What OBAP is doing regarding going to the schools is fine. I'm not crazy about the idea they were looking for a black pilot. Any pilot that comes from less than ideal circumstances would be better than a black pilot from an upper class background. However, positive examples are good regardless of the source. I still don't like any affirmative action or pro minority hiring that's based only on skin tone.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Preferences? Gee...Years ago....I remember a black guy, 1st LT, and I was his IP.

Unfortunately, he didn't do well in Pilot Training....He wwent to a Fac Board...and they had him washed out.

At no time was there any conversation about this student's performance with me...the IP. the only conversations that I recall that took place were with me and my Flight Commander.

I testified at the Board...had everything documented ( like I did with everyone else)...said my peice and left the room.

BTW...his dad was a very high ranking civilian at the Pentagon. I never heard a word.

Preferences? Don't know about that...but there's my example.

 

[get2flyin]

I agree. However, the root of the problem is inner city black adults have abdicated any and all responsibility for the raising of their children. It's not racism that's the problem, it's black urban culture that's the problem.

OBAP is treating the symptom. Instead of attacking the problem at the source they attempt to put a bandaid on it by getting preferential hiring or by motivating the kids. I like the idea of motivating kids but abhor ANY preferential hiring. I'd be more impressed by OBAP if they were in the trenches demanding that urban black adults start raising their kids appropriately. Until all of us start doing that nothing will change. They'll keep pumping out kids, they'll keep abondoning them physically and mentally, and they'll keep hollering racism. We need to address the real problem not the negative outcomes created by the problem.

Excellent points I hadn't considers. So what you're saying is maybe we should get a bunch of old white guys from upper class to head out of the suburbs and talk to the inner-city kid's PARENTS and tell them their kids can be anything they want to be. Ok......uh.....any volunteers? Anyone?

Just kidding...but in all seriousness, I think we're more likely to be able to influence social issues by providing positive roles models and guidance to kids who may not have them rather than letting the negative cycle continue while we stand on the sidelines shaking our heads disapprovingly. We already know that doesn't work. So if this is what we're trying to rally members of OBAP to do, GREAT!

As far as preferential hiring, we tend to support those around us that we can relate with. How many of us helped a guy from our former airline get a job with our current airline, even if we didn't know them that well? Or maybe from our Alma mater? Hell, I'm guessing you're former Marines. Would you help a fellow Marine? I'd damn well hope so. In essence, you'd be giving them preference. I HATE the idea of hiring unqualified pilots into our profession, period. But it's hard to think poorly of someone who is trying to mentor an eager young mind and prepare them to receive the torch as it's passed down through our profession.

(Speaker Notes: Speech complete, cue the band to start playing America the Beautiful)

I'm sorry if that became a little overly dramatic. I spent a number of years as a teacher and I still have a great belief in the youth.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I am minding my own business. I generally stick to my functional lily white, conservative christian neighborhood and stay away from the dysfunctional war zone that most inner cities have become. Inner city blacks are not tending to their own business and that's why their culture is in complete chaos.

I have no obligation or desire to help until you get your own house in order. Stay in school, stop teenage pregnancies, get a job and stop shooting each other over 'respect'. It's not hard to get ahead in America. Here's a fool proof plan:

1. Graduate high school.
2. Don't get pregnant or get someone else pregnant.
3. Don't get married until one of three things happens:
a. Graduate college
b. Serve one enlistment in the military
c. Graduate from a trade school
4. Keep debt to a minimum (student loans o.k.)

If anyone follows this plan they'll be about 22 and off to a good start. It doesn't require any wealth. All it requires is the desire and discipline to do some real basic things. Until inner city black culture embraces this kind of thinking they are screwed. The main reason white America is successful is because more of us follow this plan than inner city blacks do. It has nothing to do with racism. It's all about personal responsibility and each community's willingness to stand up and say "Hey! That behavior is inappropriate! Stop it!"

Agreed... the cylce needs to stop...however, it is easier said than done..... isn't that obvious?

A recent book by Sachs, with a forward by Bono of U2, titled The End of Poverty... clearly shows that insisiting that others simply rise up and make the choices we have such as your 1-4 are much easier said than done. (the book is about world poverty, not "poverty" in the US).

How do you expect a 13 year old to make good judgement choices when his entire world is pushing him/her to go in the opposite direction. To simply say... "the child just should" when the resources, skills, leadership, culture and motivation is not there is niave...

To turn our back on people until they make choices 1-4 and not help until they do is irresponsible and weak.

So what is wrong with helping someone obtain the goals of 1-4. What's wrong with mentoring, leading, guiding, helping...etc....

That takes real courage, leadership and strength. That is true power...

 

[Caveman]

Agreed... the cylce needs to stop...however, it is easier said than done..... isn't that obvious?

A recent book by Sachs, with a forward by Bono of U2, titled The End of Poverty... clearly shows that insisiting that others simply rise up and make the choices we have such as your 1-4 are much easier said than done. (the book is about world poverty, not "poverty" in the US).

How do you expect a 13 year old to make good judgement choices when his entire world is pushing him/her to go in the opposite direction. To simply say... "the child just should" when the resources, skills, leadership, culture and motivation is not there is niave...

To turn our back on people until they make choices 1-4 and not help until they do is irresponsible and weak.

So what is wrong with helping someone obtain the goals of 1-4. What's wrong with mentoring, leading, guiding, helping...etc....

That takes real courage, leadership and strength. That is true power...

I don't disagree that what's required for change is difficult. The problem is that it must come from the community itself. The rest of us can mentor, support and guide until we're blue in the face. We might save some, but the core problem will remain. The inner city black community has to right itself. The resources are there. The support from the rest of us is there. We've spent 40 years and $5 trillion (literally) trying to enact the change.

Until enough black voices stand up and make some noise IMO it won't change. There has to be societal and peer pressure and as of now the few voices willing to speak out are shouted down, ala Bill Cosby. If the Jesse Jacksons and Al Sharptons of the world won't call a spade a spade (no pun intended) and hold people to task for their behavior the inner city black community is doomed. It's a cultural problem, not an economic one.

As far as OBAP or any other organization mentoring a few kids, fine. It doesn't hurt. It still doesn't address the core issue. I still don't agree with preferential anything. Any organization that espouses that philosophy is misguided IMO, even if they do good works elsewhere.

I believe there is a double standard regarding these types of organizations, but that's a different complaint. I can separate the basic goodness of an outfit like OBAP and still be resentful that I would never be allowed to create a similar organization targeted towards disadvanteged white kids. OBAP isn't my problem, the double standard is what grinds my ass.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Fair reply.......

 

[highsky]

I agree. However, the root of the problem is inner city black adults have abdicated any and all responsibility for the raising of their children. It's not racism that's the problem, it's black urban culture that's the problem.

OBAP is treating the symptom. Instead of attacking the problem at the source they attempt to put a bandaid on it by getting preferential hiring or by motivating the kids. I like the idea of motivating kids but abhor ANY preferential hiring. I'd be more impressed by OBAP if they were in the trenches demanding that urban black adults start raising their kids appropriately. Until all of us start doing that nothing will change. They'll keep pumping out kids, they'll keep abondoning them physically and mentally, and they'll keep hollering racism. We need to address the real problem not the negative outcomes created by the problem.

Well said.

 

[AV80R]

Caveman - I agree with you too.

 

[skydash]

So does Bill Cosby.

 

[waveflyer]

Agreed... the cylce needs to stop...however, it is easier said than done..... isn't that obvious?

A recent book by Sachs, with a forward by Bono of U2, titled The End of Poverty... clearly shows that insisiting that others simply rise up and make the choices we have such as your 1-4 are much easier said than done. (the book is about world poverty, not "poverty" in the US).

How do you expect a 13 year old to make good judgement choices when his entire world is pushing him/her to go in the opposite direction. To simply say... "the child just should" when the resources, skills, leadership, culture and motivation is not there is niave...

To turn our back on people until they make choices 1-4 and not help until they do is irresponsible and weak.

So what is wrong with helping someone obtain the goals of 1-4. What's wrong with mentoring, leading, guiding, helping...etc....

That takes real courage, leadership and strength. That is true power...

Sorry Rez But i find this ironic considering your fairly constant statements about ALPA membership apathy and uninvolvement and even your signature.
So you're saying that leadership does come first?
(!)

 

[waveflyer]

The girl's grandmother said this when she was complaining about messing up and not balancing her checkbook:
"That's an Arkansas tooth problem, honey."
"What?" .....
"It's not hard to brush your teeth, but people in Arkansas sure do have a problem with it. You can apply that to anything... it's easier to exercise than to not, easier to be educated than ignorant. Choose your work and your pain, or life will choose it for you-= you can't get through life easy- but it's a lot easier to stay on top of things than not"
I love the south- they have sayings for everything!

Caveman- the part i would disagree with is that we are not a part of the inner city community. Bad things happen when people are broke and undereducated... The Middle East should teach us that. The idea that we can hole up in the suburbs and it will never affect us is naive. (Like ignoring the abuses and poverty in the middle east helped to create 9/11)

Part of being in a good home, a good community, a good nation, ... ie: making this a GOOD WORLD- is doing MORE than you 'should' have to. Get to a school... Show the inner city kids your ideas... You'll be surprised that it might be the first time any of the kids have heard those 4 ideas. It would be good for both of you I promise.

 

[AV80R]

... Bad things happen when people are broke and undereducated... The Middle East should teach us that. The idea that we can hole up in the suburbs and it will never affect us is naive. (Like ignoring the abuses and poverty in the middle east helped to create 9/11)...

I'm sorry but I think that's total nonsense. This is a typical leftie mantra –
- IF we bring up Mexico's economy - the illegal immigration will stop...
- IF we eradicate poverty in Middle East - terrorism will stop, etc, etc...

How about - if we secure our borders - the illegal immigration WILL stop?!
The “broke and undereducated” terrorists of 9/11 came from one of the world's richest countries and they were not broke. Neither were they undereducated - the problem is they were overeducated in the "religion of peace."

 

[waveflyer]

One of the richest countries that oppresses their people and does not share the wealth that should be equally theirs.

I find that people are more apt to believe religious BS the more uneducated they are.

 

[waveflyer]

btw-

I've grown up and live in America. To call me liberal is a compliment. But in the end i'm a moderate. In politics when you deviate too far from center, bad things happen...

 

[John Pennekamp]

Unless you are taller than 6'5" and 250lbs I doubt I'm smaller than you.....

How about spring time... the D is too cold ths time of year...

Bigger doesn't mean tougher. And I knew you'd find a way to cop out. Rez, you are all talk and no substance. Just let me know when you're ready to man up. I was in Detroit the other day... it wasn't that cold.

 

[John Pennekamp]

But the bannana pudding with the vanilla wafers is soooooo good.

How is anyone harmed by OBAP? Are white guys harmed?

How are white guys harmed? They are denied opportunities based on being the wrong race. As evidenced by the tales of US Air applicants being given gouge and preferential treatment white applicants weren't. That's called "reverse discrimination". and it's a daily FACT here in Atlanta.

Take a white kid... less than 10 years of age... dreams of being a pilot... just like his dad.... he can't wait to turn 15 to take flying lessons. family is well off financially...

dad dies. Income is cut by over 50%. Life insurance kicks in but that goes for everyday living, college funds and retirement.


Now, no money for flying lessons, single mom & kids have to move to lower middle class home. Life is tough.

Kid is angry. Doesn't do well in school, but wants to fly and knows his bad grades will hurt his chances. He is a downward spiral. Temptation to hang with the wrong crowd is there...

Mom would love for him to be a pilot, but really just wants the kid to make it....




Any one care about this white kid? Should he get a push? Maybe a scholarship? maybe a free Air Inc package? maybe a free discovery flight. Maybe a mentor. maybe someone to belive in him.. anyone...???



Oh yeah.... ****** him... cause race is colorblind and you got yours..... he just needs to pull himself up... and its all his fault cause his dad died... and its his dad fault for not making more money and buying more insurance....

Yeah... ******* em all cause you got yours....

MOD INPUT, REZ consider yourself warned about masking the language

Yes, you're 100% right. Nobody cares about him BECAUSE HE IS WHITE. If he were black, he would be eligible for all kinds of government and private scholarships, including ones from OBAP. And don't tell me for one minute that any caucasian has EVER been awarded an OBAP scholarship.

Have you ever been to the WHITE ghettos of Detroit? Warren? River Rouge? Dearborn? Or any city for that matter? Do you think the movie "8 Mile" was just a Hollywood fantasy?

Not only black poor kids are underprivileged. But they are the only ones anyone wants to help THAT is RACISM.

 

[Reebo]

And don't tell me for one minute that any caucasian has EVER been awarded an OBAP scholarship.

Not sure about the scholarship winners, but plenty of caucasians have recieved something even better than a scholarship from OBAP.

It's called a JOB.

 

[shooter]

How are white guys harmed? They are denied opportunities based on being the wrong race. As evidenced by the tales of US Air applicants being given gouge and preferential treatment white applicants weren't. That's called "reverse discrimination". and it's a daily FACT here in Atlanta.



Yes, you're 100% right. Nobody cares about him BECAUSE HE IS WHITE. If he were black, he would be eligible for all kinds of government and private scholarships, including ones from OBAP. And don't tell me for one minute that any caucasian has EVER been awarded an OBAP scholarship.

Have you ever been to the WHITE ghettos of Detroit? Warren? River Rouge? Dearborn? Or any city for that matter? Do you think the movie "8 Mile" was just a Hollywood fantasy?

Not only black poor kids are underprivileged. But they are the only ones anyone wants to help THAT is RACISM.

No such thing as reverse discrimination JP. That is discrimination. You, BBB and Caveman are all saying the same thing. And I agree with you guys. No race means no race. Why is it so hard for so many to be colorblind without exception?

 

[Dizel8]

On a similar note, having some old white guy walk into a class of young black students and tell them they can be whatever they want might sound a little suspect. How could somebody who would be perceived as being from the "suburbs" expect to have any credibility with the kids? I think the idea is having somebody who the kids could identify with be the one to deliver words of encouragement.

Maybe not the worst thing that could happen, after all, it would be the man, telling the kids that they could be whatever they want to be, IOW, the man is not trying to keep them out.

People like Jesse and Al are often trying to tell the black community, that they are not given a chance by the whites. That is the blame mentality and as long as it is perpetuated, we will not see the black community take their rightfull place in society as a whole.

Cosby spoke out and he was crucified, plenty of great black men and women has been labelled as being too "white" or as being the white mans pawn.

I agree with the posters that said, that change starts a home and I am always reminded of the story of the black inner city grandmothers who harrased the crack dealers so much that they left.

Interestingly, it is often the older blacks who, who are pushing this generations kids forward, ie, the grandparents are the one doing the pushing. Perhaps they can see, that opportunities present, will be missed and they can remember the past and how far we have come and yet they know, that we are not there yet.

 

[JoeMerchant]

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/4/3/234500.shtml

http://www.acton.org/commentary/commentary410.php

 

[VWDrvr21]

I don't see the point in doing that, but if it was done, it would be considered racist.....Picking people because of race is wrong......be it white, black, brown, or yellow....

No,Its only wrong when a white person is doing it!

 

[FreightGod]

As to the hiring aspect that you railed on have you ever ASKED your airline HR how the hiring of minorities are handled?

Yawn...
Yes kid, I know how the hireing and how the firing is done.

Last count I had 19 civilian flying jobs.
Including instructor and check-airman on aircraft ranging from Piper Aztec to B-747.
I have signed off white and black guys, no incentives or extra pay for turning anybody down.
2 guys from Jamaica with Green-Cards failed to impress me and I did not sign the dotted line.

Same with a few white guys from wherever..

Just be proffesional, do yer homework and fly the darn airplane..And uh, don't ever try to kiss ass, it is sooo easy to see through.

1 guy I gave IOE to an Argentinian guy on furlough from United, told me on first flight that I must have lots of luck with the ladies because I was so handsome.
Made me puke..Kissing arse without even blushing he did.

Typically the guys that can't fly try to talk and make friends.

Keep mouth shut, fly plane and be neutral.
If ya impress the check airman or the captain will buy dinner and drinks that evening.
If ya are useless, ya should be back working the taxi-cabs next week. Color or kissing won't fly the craft or impress nobody.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Did you do a interview prep?

Previous Millitary?

Will Fly for Food?

Air Inc?

All of the above will provide the same info the OBAP guys had. Where do you think they got the idea from?

The difference: All of the others besides OBAP would accept my application for membership (sans military).

And no, I relied on friends for the intel from the interview. Pure unadulterated, old-fashioned networking and hard work.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Still waiting for someone to tell us how they've been harmed by OBAP..... how the group is harmful...

Compartments and compartmentalization through partnership and plausible deniability while blaming "quotas" and "the government".

Not that it matters but I was flat out told but United's Nancy Stutke in 1997 that I "was not competitive for other pilots in my category".

I said, "Que?"

She said, "You need 7,000 hours and 4 type ratings to be competitive."

I say, "Well how come I know of a few friends at work (yes, I have black, yellow, red, female and brown friends:nuts: ) who just got hired with less time and less type ratings (3,000TT and 1 type).

She said, "You are a white male (under her breath)".

I just hit 7,000 hours in 2007. That's 10 years of potential seniority loss at a carrier that I never interviewed at because I am white and therefore not qualified. I withdrew my app and never applied again.

Not harmed by UAL/OBAP? Sure. I agree. OBAP is nothing more than a mechanism for recruiting standards UAL under Stutke championed.

I did also lose about 300 numbers at US Airways when I was held up for 3 months in the pool because, according to the pilot recruiting department (phone convo) that they needed to maintain a certain class ration quota in regards to EEOC requirements.

How much harm there? In light of what's happened at US with the seniority fallout? Nothing. I'd still be junior to a 2005 hire. What would it have meant though if I had gone on to retire like I was supposed to as #1... after being there for 4 years?

EEOC can kiss my white ass in regards to mandating hiring quotas for a safety sensitive job but then causing recruitment departments to adjust the mins downward for those minorities to qualify for an interview. OBAP wasn't part of a solution to this problem therefore, by default, it was not helping to solve it. At the very least, it resembled an arms dealer working with 3rd world countries.

 

[aerobato]

Yawn...
Yes kid, I know how the hireing and how the firing is done.

Last count I had 19 civilian flying jobs.
Including instructor and check-airman on aircraft ranging from Piper Aztec to B-747.
I have signed off white and black guys, no incentives or extra pay for turning anybody down.
2 guys from Jamaica with Green-Cards failed to impress me and I did not sign the dotted line.

Same with a few white guys from wherever..

Just be proffesional, do yer homework and fly the darn airplane..And uh, don't ever try to kiss ass, it is sooo easy to see through.

1 guy I gave IOE to an Argentinian guy on furlough from United, told me on first flight that I must have lots of luck with the ladies because I was so handsome.
Made me puke..Kissing arse without even blushing he did.

Typically the guys that can't fly try to talk and make friends.

Keep mouth shut, fly plane and be neutral.
If ya impress the check airman or the captain will buy dinner and drinks that evening.
If ya are useless, ya should be back working the taxi-cabs next week. Color or kissing won't fly the craft or impress nobody.

Wow! you are a legend in your own mind...

 

[inline]

How are white guys harmed? They are denied opportunities based on being the wrong race. As evidenced by the tales of US Air applicants being given gouge and preferential treatment white applicants weren't. That's called "reverse discrimination". and it's a daily FACT here in Atlanta.



Yes, you're 100% right. Nobody cares about him BECAUSE HE IS WHITE. If he were black, he would be eligible for all kinds of government and private scholarships, including ones from OBAP. And don't tell me for one minute that any caucasian has EVER been awarded an OBAP scholarship.

Have you ever been to the WHITE ghettos of Detroit? Warren? River Rouge? Dearborn? Or any city for that matter? Do you think the movie "8 Mile" was just a Hollywood fantasy?

Not only black poor kids are underprivileged. But they are the only ones anyone wants to help THAT is RACISM.

Great point. And if you really want to see racism in action, try to get a pilot job ( or any job) with the federal government if you're a white male. You go to the bottom of the list.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Sorry Rez But i find this ironic considering your fairly constant statements about ALPA membership apathy and uninvolvement and even your signature.
So you're saying that leadership does come first?
(!)

You want to compare relatively economically stable college educated professionals with inner city kids?