Organization Of Black Airline Pilots

[Rez O. Lewshun]

... I'm sorry but I think that's total nonsense. This is a typical leftie mantra –
- IF we bring up Mexico's economy - the illegal immigration will stop...
- IF we eradicate poverty in Middle East - terrorism will stop, etc, etc...

How about - if we secure our borders - the illegal immigration WILL stop?!
The “broke and undereducated” terrorists of 9/11 came from one of the world's richest countries and they were not broke. Neither were they undereducated - the problem is they were overeducated in the "religion of peace."

How about both?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Bigger doesn't mean tougher. And I knew you'd find a way to cop out. Rez, you are all talk and no substance. Just let me know when you're ready to man up. I was in Detroit the other day... it wasn't that cold.

Sounds good Johnny P.

You're determined to meet in DTW...

You call OBAP and set it up.... give me a set of dates and I'll pick one....

We'll go to the inner city and talk to the kids...

I'll buy the rental car and lunch....

 

[jke406]

You want to compare relatively economically stable college educated professionals with inner city kids?

There are disadvantaged kids of every race, including whites.

If we're going to have quotas for "less advantaged" demographics, let's have a "redneck" category on applications for the hillbillies who grew up dirt poor in the backwoods.

Shouldn't they receive the same benefits/assistance as "disadvantaged" minorities?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Compartments and compartmentalization through partnership and plausible deniability while blaming "quotas" and "the government".

Not that it matters but I was flat out told but United's Nancy Stutke in 1997 that I "was not competitive for other pilots in my category".

I said, "Que?"

She said, "You need 7,000 hours and 4 type ratings to be competitive."

I say, "Well how come I know of a few friends at work (yes, I have black, yellow, red, female and brown friends:nuts: ) who just got hired with less time and less type ratings (3,000TT and 1 type).

She said, "You are a white male (under her breath)".

I just hit 7,000 hours in 2007. That's 10 years of potential seniority loss at a carrier that I never interviewed at because I am white and therefore not qualified. I withdrew my app and never applied again.

Not harmed by UAL/OBAP? Sure. I agree. OBAP is nothing more than a mechanism for recruiting standards UAL under Stutke championed.

I did also lose about 300 numbers at US Airways when I was held up for 3 months in the pool because, according to the pilot recruiting department (phone convo) that they needed to maintain a certain class ration quota in regards to EEOC requirements.

How much harm there? In light of what's happened at US with the seniority fallout? Nothing. I'd still be junior to a 2005 hire. What would it have meant though if I had gone on to retire like I was supposed to as #1... after being there for 4 years?

EEOC can kiss my white ass in regards to mandating hiring quotas for a safety sensitive job but then causing recruitment departments to adjust the mins downward for those minorities to qualify for an interview. OBAP wasn't part of a solution to this problem therefore, by default, it was not helping to solve it. At the very least, it resembled an arms dealer working with 3rd world countries.

So in order for you to have gotten hired.... who would not have gotten hired....

If you want to play to the total competitive game, there is always someone better, faster, stronger than you.....

based on that, you'd never get hired....

SR-71 pilots and NASA astronauts have been denied employment at UAL, AMR, etc... why?

Have you considered Stuke didn't tell you everything?

 

[JoeMerchant]

So in order for you to have gotten hired.... who would not have gotten hired....

If you want to play to the total competitive game, there is always someone better, faster, stronger than you.....

based on that, you'd never get hired....

SR-71 pilots and NASA astronauts have been denied employment at UAL, AMR, etc... why?

Have you considered Stuke didn't tell you everything?

Rez...you are advocating racial preference........pure and simple.....You believe it is OK to choose someone because of their race.....

PC racism is OK.......

 

[737 Pylt]

There are disadvantaged kids of every race, including whites.

If we're going to have quotas for "less advantaged" demographics, let's have a "redneck" category on applications for the hillbillies who grew up dirt poor in the backwoods.

Shouldn't they receive the same benefits/assistance as "disadvantaged" minorities?

You see this is what happens when your parents are "brother and sister."
How can anyone take this POS seriously?
Tanker/jmoney/jerk406, all the same troll posting useless stuff!
So troll, when you take your white hood to the cleaners, do you have it laundered, or dry cleaned?
737

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez...you are advocating racial preference........pure and simple.....You believe it is OK to choose someone because of their race.....

PC racism is OK.......

Nope. Wrong again....

So...should airlines hire all MIL guys and only all MIL guys? How about all USAF guys but no tanker guys... and no A-10 guys. How about only F-16/15 and F22 guys?

One reason the AMR A300 crashed out of JFK was the MIL guys running the training dept. They advocated multiple hard rudder deflections... works great in tactical jets.... a problem... the A300 isn't a tactical jet.

You think pilots should be hired based on airman qualifications only. Who gives a shat about TT. You think cause you are white with more TT than the minorities you should get the job.... I'd rather fly with a 2000TT pilot with an excellent character, skillset and personality than a 8000TT toolbox.

I'd rather hire minority who has worked hard to overcome challenges and is not bitter than some entitled SJS white boy.


Diversity is good. And when I say diverstiy I don't mean skin color... I mean life expereince diversity...


Don't be a hater Joe.... it's ugly.

 

[FLYLOW22]

So in order for you to have gotten hired.... who would not have gotten hired....

If you want to play to the total competitive game, there is always someone better, faster, stronger than you.....

based on that, you'd never get hired....

SR-71 pilots and NASA astronauts have been denied employment at UAL, AMR, etc... why?

Have you considered Stuke didn't tell you everything?

Did I mention that I once worked in a major airline recruitment department?

Did I mention that Nancy (UAL) wasn't the only one practicing these quota staffing methods. She was just stupid enough to say it with the conviction that the quotas were a good thing.

The sky is vast...

 

[FLYLOW22]

I'd rather hire minority who has worked hard to overcome challenges and is not bitter than some entitled SJS white boy.


Diversity is good. And when I say diverstiy I don't mean skin color... I mean life expereince diversity...


Don't be a hater Joe.... it's ugly.

The issue is really not about who is hired... entirely.

The issue is really about how candidates are selected for the interview based on race and how they are slotted for class dates based on quotas for the class.

Basically, if there are more white (soon to be a minority by 2034) candidates for a class but there needs to be XX% of minorities, a higher percentage of minorities are getting called for interviews and fast-tracking it to class getting a seniority number before their white candidates.

Actually hiring that minority with less experience than a white counterpart (or the "average" overall experience of all candidates) is a temptation on the part of the recruitment department just to make the quota.

Safety sensitive job = need for experience.

Attitude, aptitude and ability are also measured during the interview process but we aren't talking about that here... at least I'm not. Those aspects are self-evident and not racially profiled.

I think the best candidate for the job should be picked. No strings. No quotas. No gouge. No OBAP.

The best candidate based on MANY factors that the interview process is designed to metric. Race is hardly important in this job as I never can see the pilots from the back anyway when riding.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I think the best candidate for the job should be picked. No strings. No quotas. No gouge. No OBAP.

If you could eliminate the human factor in that selection then you might have something... but as long as people are picking.. they are going to used biased measurements to select.

IOW, they are going to select people like them.. that have similiar values and characteristics and features.

Even jB tried to lose their good ol boy methodology for selection, but in the end, there was still the inside track to employment.....

 

[pipe]

There are disadvantaged kids of every race, including whites.

If we're going to have quotas for "less advantaged" demographics, let's have a "redneck" category on applications for the hillbillies who grew up dirt poor in the backwoods.

Shouldn't they receive the same benefits/assistance as "disadvantaged" minorities?

That's a heluva good point.

I flew with a captain a few weeks ago who didn't have indoor plumbing until he was 15.

My father hitchhiked to college with one suitcase and ten dollars - he's a PhD now.

Both plain old white boys. I guess if they'd have had some help they'd be ok now. (sarcasm fully intended)

PIPE

 

[waveflyer]

Sounds good Johnny P.

You're determined to meet in DTW...

You call OBAP and set it up.... give me a set of dates and I'll pick one....

We'll go to the inner city and talk to the kids...

I'll buy the rental car and lunch....

I'll join you. IM me and I'll make it work as well.

 

[Draginass]

The main reason white America is successful is because more of us follow this plan than inner city blacks do. It has nothing to do with racism. It's all about personal responsibility and each community's willingness to stand up and say "Hey! That behavior is inappropriate! Stop it!"

Caveman has it right. It's really so stunningly simple. The black community is almost completely devoid of true leadership. It's pretty obvious to anyone capable of critical thinking that Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are scam artists who profit from keeping blacks feeling downtrodden and oppressed. Genuine positive contributors to the world like Colin Powell, Condelleza Rice, and Bill Cosby are vilified as stooges of whites. Like the middle-east arabs, the culture of blame is to blame anybody and everybody else for your own stupendous failings.

It will be interesting to see if a potential President Obama turns out to be another pandering leach on black society or a true leader that's going to bring black culture in this country kicking and screaming out of its continued downward spiral.

 

[inline]

Nope. Wrong again....

So...should airlines hire all MIL guys and only all MIL guys? How about all USAF guys but no tanker guys... and no A-10 guys. How about only F-16/15 and F22 guys?

One reason the AMR A300 crashed out of JFK was the MIL guys running the training dept. They advocated multiple hard rudder deflections... works great in tactical jets.... a problem... the A300 isn't a tactical jet.

You think pilots should be hired based on airman qualifications only. Who gives a shat about TT. You think cause you are white with more TT than the minorities you should get the job.... I'd rather fly with a 2000TT pilot with an excellent character, skillset and personality than a 8000TT toolbox.

I'd rather hire minority who has worked hard to overcome challenges and is not bitter than some entitled SJS white boy.


Diversity is good. And when I say diverstiy I don't mean skin color... I mean life expereince diversity...


Don't be a hater Joe.... it's ugly.

I see you've been drinking the democrats koolaid. Diversity is just a code word for legal discrimination against white males. Wait'll Obama gets in the White House, you ain't seen nothing yet.

 

[FLYLOW22]

If you could eliminate the human factor in that selection then you might have something... but as long as people are picking.. they are going to used biased measurements to select.

IOW, they are going to select people like them.. that have similiar values and characteristics and features.

Even jB tried to lose their good ol boy methodology for selection, but in the end, there was still the inside track to employment.....

Bull$hit.

 

[flying zephyr]

just wondering

I just want to know why anyone would want children to go into this business..... Everyone's stressed about pay, jobs, schedules, mergers, seniority. Not too many positive threads????

 

[jke406]

There is a small-but-vocal, disgruntled fringe on this forum that probably doesn't represent pilots as a whole.

 

[737 Pylt]

There is a small-but-vocal, disgruntled fringe on this forum that probably doesn't represent pilots as a whole.

Well, the little tidbit for them sparky, is at least their pilots!

737

 

[~~~^~~~]

There is a small-but-vocal, disgruntled fringe on this forum that probably doesn't represent pilots as a whole.

On the hole, I agree.

http://www.youtube.com/v/5mZAtpFXmQE

 

[Captzaahlie]

Geez you guys. Next time you go to your respective crew lounge, look around and see what the makeup is of your pilot group. Mostly white males I am sure.

Psycho is looking for what is no more than a "role-model" for some inner city kids. It's easier for them to imagine that a job as an airline pilot is attainable, if they see somebody that looks just like themselves has already done it.

I believe there are probably more women pilots now than black pilots, atleast from my observations around airports.

Good luck Psycho.

So I guess "Cracker" can't be a role model for the inner city kids???????

Just for the record I do in fact have black friends, and many of them in the airline industry. (before you start calling me a racist). These friends of mine decided that they could help themselves (just like everyone else) and be ambitious, study hard, and make something of their lives. The problem really is that there have been way too many handouts and the abuse of such handouts. If it needs to be a member of OBAPA to talk to school kids than so be it use a member of the "brotherhood". But my stance will always be that "I think minority quota's for hiring suck" and thats all that this organization is about..... capitalizing on the fact that the airlines will grant interviews on ones race!
(Point 2 "just for the record". I know I'd feel the same way about this if I were black or a female too!)
:angryfire

Here's a gentleman that sees things how it really is:
Click link: "I'm black"

 

[Rook]

Here's a gentleman that sees things how it really is:
Click link: "I'm black"

I think this gentleman pretty much summarizes everything from the link above.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGOYG-8AjeU

 

[Freight Dog]

I fled the civil war in former Yugoslavia as a 15 year old. My hometown was under siege and constant artillery barrage. My parents stayed behind to protect our home and sent only my grandmother with me. We came to the U.S. with just a suitcase, each and that's it. What should I have checked off to even have a chance at an interview, let alone a job? Nothing... I hope my qualifications speak for themselves.

Instead of OBAP or WIA, why not make it gender and race neutral organization such as Pilots Living the Dream or something along those lines that's dedicated to helping out EVERYONE who came from a disadvantageous environment whether they're black, white, Asian, Hispanic, purple, green, male or female or undecided.

You don't correct previous racial injustices by promoting them the other way, i.e. OBAP, NAACP, UNCF, etc.

 

[Captzaahlie]

I think this gentleman pretty much summarizes everything from the link above.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGOYG-8AjeU

RAP= always such a great message!

uke:

 

[bleagle]

I fled the civil war in former Yugoslavia as a 15 year old. My hometown was under siege and constant artillery barrage. My parents stayed behind to protect our home and sent only my grandmother with me. We came to the U.S. with just a suitcase, each and that's it. What should I have checked off to even have a chance at an interview, let alone a job? Nothing... I hope my qualifications speak for themselves.

Instead of OBAP or WIA, why not make it gender and race neutral organization such as Pilots Living the Dream or something along those lines that's dedicated to helping out EVERYONE who came from a disadvantageous environment whether they're black, white, Asian, Hispanic, purple, green, male or female or undecided.

You don't correct previous racial injustices by promoting them the other way, i.e. OBAP, NAACP, UNCF, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pH900FGqwKs&feature=related

Do you really think it is strictly about qualifications? Many of the comments on this board show how much we all have to change.

I agree about correcting previous racial injustices....our generation is just too ignorant and self serving to change....

and don't forget... a 15 yr old from yugoslavia had a much better chance than a black 15yor old from the good ole' US of A getting hired by the airlines...only just a few years ago.

Did you know that black veterans did not receive the same veterans benefits than their white counterparts (WWII)?

Why are harassment/discrimination classes and training still held at all american companies?

Botton line....I think time is the only solution to cure this situation....racism and classism will continue to be huge problems for our "forward thinking, heavily diverse" community.

 

[Freight Dog]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pH900FGqwKs&feature=related

Do you really think it is strictly about qualifications? Many of the comments on this board show how much we all have to change.

It's not. It's about the overall picture of an individual REGARDLESS of their race, sex, or national origin.

and don't forget... a 15 yr old from yugoslavia had a much better chance than a black 15yor old from the good ole' US of A getting hired by the airlines...only just a few years ago.

Really? How do you figure? All that black 15 year old has to do is have a dream and a goal in life, then apply him/herself towards achieving it. Are you saying that 15 year old black teens are somewhat less capable of having a childhood dream or applying themselves towards achieving their goals than kids from former Yugoslavia? Come on... you know that's bullsh*t.

This country is THE Land of Opportunity. If you want something bad enough and are willing to give it all towards achieving it, there's no stopping you. That's the beauty of this country.

Did you know that black veterans did not receive the same veterans benefits than their white counterparts (WWII)?

What about black vets from the Gulf War? Somalia? Iraq/Afghanistan? Are they getting less?

Why are harassment/discrimination classes and training still held at all american companies?

Hmmm.. ever been to Hawaii? You should see the racism against white people here. It's often hilarious. But it's very real... Let me put it this way - racism = ignorance.

Botton line....I think time is the only solution to cure this situation....racism and classism will continue to be huge problems for our "forward thinking, heavily diverse" community.

Agreed... but you have to look forward, not backward. You can either live in the past and continue a vicious cycle, or you can learn from the past mistakes and live looking forward to the future.

 

[Way2Broke]

In America you have freedom. It's a great thing. You can choose to be a member of any group with pretty much any agenda as long as that group does not do anything illegal you can gather as a group and attempt to convince others to feel the same way you do. It is up to that person to decide what they feel. For those of you that want to start a "White Pilot Association" .... go ahead.... But I doubt you will get many people to openly "feel" like you because of the past wrongs in our country. But your well within your rights to do so. You won't see my joining either organization as I like to think for myself instead of have others think for me.

It's my personal opinion that there is nothing wrong with being proud of your ancestry and your families past. The things you have overcome and the accomplishments your family has made. This is the fundamental problem here, people fail to see why others are proud of their past. Look at the rebel flag for instance, many families had family members die under that flag. That doesn't make what they were fighting for right (even if they thought it was), but it might mean that some people might be sympathetic to their past. So to some it's a racist symbol but to others "great great great grandfather John" died carrying that flag. Diversity is what makes America great. If we all had the same past life would be very boring. Basically what I am saying is there is nothing wrong with being proud of one's heritage as long as you learn from the mistakes of the past and don't repeat them. Sooo... Black Pilot's Association and WAI... More power to ya! Hooray Freedom! Everyone should be proud that they live in such a great country where you can have any organization you choose.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I see you've been drinking the democrats koolaid. Diversity is just a code word for legal discrimination against white males. Wait'll Obama gets in the White House, you ain't seen nothing yet.

so diversity is bad? a threat?

Bull$hit.

I take it you don't have worthy reply?



White males claiming victim status= pathetic....

 

[bleagle]

Really? How do you figure? All that black 15 year old has to do is have a dream and a goal in life, then apply him/herself towards achieving it. Are you saying that 15 year old black teens are somewhat less capable of having a childhood dream or applying themselves towards achieving their goals than kids from former Yugoslavia? Come on... you know that's bullsh*t.

WOW... I said that just a few years ago that a 15 yr old from yugo. would have a better chance of getting hired by an airline than a 15 yr old natural black male citizen... NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH LESS CAPABLE TO DREAM BUT IN TERMS OF GETTING HIRED!
Again, if everything is so fair and equitable in this country, the WHY does the US government require discrimination training, harassment training etc...? Why the need for organizations for the advancement of "minorities", or women? So, do you think the anti-discriminatory policies set forth by the US GOV is bullsh*t?

This country is THE Land of Opportunity. If you want something bad enough and are willing to give it all towards achieving it, there's no stopping you. That's the beauty of this country.

True...
You can get anything in this country as long as you have the money or the ability to access money...education, homes,etc? Why the need for EEOC when it comes to purchasing homes or applying for loans, college admission etc...oh, that's right racism does not exist anymore...

What about black vets from the Gulf War? Somalia? Iraq/Afghanistan? Are they getting less?

Finally no!!!

Agreed... but you have to look forward, not backward. You can either live in the past and continue a vicious cycle, or you can learn from the past mistakes and live looking forward to the future.

Agreed...
that is why we should encourage forward thinking... integrate hiring panels with younger pilots of all ethnicities, NOT just the silvered hair old dogs with their old way of thinking.... introduce new people who are forward thinking...

Maybe if ALL americans were more forward thinking in the past...we would NOT need EEOC or mandated government policies/programs ensuring racial and gender equality.

 

[AV80R]

so diversity is bad? a threat? ... White males claiming victim status= pathetic....

Rez O. Lewshun – sometimes, in order to fight the political correctness battle, the ACLU types ‘invent’ a new language, or new ‘terms’ whenever the original meaning of the words seem offensive to some people.

"Affirmative action” is one of those taboo terms.

I fully realize that there are many forms of discrimination in America AND in many other countries. However, I doubt that you can win the battle against the discrimination and racism by imposing new forms of discrimination.

The affirmative action might have some very good intentions however, when people get preferential treatment over others due to their gender or their race (or any other reasons) - in affect you create a reverse form of discrimination, some even call it revenge discrimination.

Having said that - I will never fault minorities and/or women for using all the tools available to them in order to get the jobs they’re hoping for; all of us would do the very same thing.

In fact, I have personally been to several women-in-aviation seminars although I am a man.
Why? Well, I was using all the tools available to me as well – after all, the seminar catered primarily to women however it was open to both women AND men.

So what’s my point?

Sometimes, it’s easier to look in from outside. Having been born and raised in Europe I find the whole affirmative action debate truly perplexing. People mean well but end up causing even more problems.

Every now and then, when I type a letter to my folks back home I use free online translation services whenever I run into a technical term I can’t seem to remember in Swedish (my native tongue). One website I frequently visit is:

http://lexin.nada.kth.se/swe-eng.html​

Swedish is a Germanic language and I know that you speak German so this should be easy for you.
I typed “affirmative action” into the search window and notice the Swedish interpretation I got.
(I translated the Swedish words 'verbatim' into English and typed them in blue text for everyone else)


English entry word:....affirmative action
Swedish translation:...positiv diskriminering; kvotering (substantiv)
English (verbatim):.....positive discrimination; quote system (noun)


»»» Well, if the discrimination is deemed “positive” to some it must be “negative” to others, wouldn’t you say? If so, wouldn’t that be reverse discrimination?

Also, this online dictionary explains the meaning of different words. Here the term "affirmative action" is explained in Swedish:

“tillvägagångssätt vid till exempel tjänstetillsättning då man prioriterar svagare grupper, till exempel kvinnor och invandrare, före andra grupper.”

And here’s my swenglish translation, so please bear with me:

“a way to, for example through legislative means, prioritize weaker groups, for example women and immigrants, over other groups”

(Blue text is my translation to English)

»»»

Here’s something else that you’ll appreciate. Go to this website and try to translate the very same term into German instead. (Even though I’m sure you already know the answer)

http://translation2.paralink.com/​

English:...............affirmative action
German:..............positive Diskriminierung
English verbatim:..self-explanatory?

» » » « « «​

Do you see my point? Discrimination is discrimination no matter how pretty we make the words that describe it. We call it affirmative action because people didn't like the more accurate term of “positive discrimination” so instead we, the society, invented a term that appears to be less offensive.

I do not know the solution to this problem. However, until we start call things for what they really are, we’ll never be able to find a solution to discrimination in this country.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I do not know the solution to this problem. However, until we start call things for what they really are, we’ll never be able to find a solution to discrimination in this country.

Nice... you got a long post but no solutions... the reasons why European languages don't have direct translations is because the Europeans until the new meillenium could afford to keep thier countries limited in race....

So now its a name.... calories are actually kilocalories... but it is easier and more accpetable to us fat americans to read calories on a nutrition label than kilocalories... Who wants to eat a chocolate bar with 240 kilocalories....

My involvement in this post is in response to those who rejected the solicitation of pilots to visit the inner city...

Point blank.... there is nothing wrong with a person of race helping another person of same race... if you want to point fingers at affirmative action, then go to our democratic gov't....

To be honest... I get tired of flying with white guys. The testosterone gets old, as does the arrogance...... I like flying with females and other races and nationalities like Scans....... different viewpoints are good.

What do you call an advantaged race that is indifferent to a disadvantaged race? Indifference?