Options

[1folinepilot]

How much was lost during the time frame between voting in the union and the CBA? By NJ standards, profits are meager at best for an operation of that size, albiet they are profits. But, the proof is in the pudding with there is a hiccup and the economy softens. Majors were profitable even with the large contracts, but when the industry hiccuped, nearly all but Delta was forced into bankruptcy protection because the unions didn't act fast enough. The only reason that Delta held off is because they are the least unionized out of all the majors, but even then the pilot's union failed to act and the inevitable happened. Anybody that doesn't think the industry can turn quickly is fooling themselves, and anybody that thinks that the union is sensitive to the profitability to a company is fooling themselves even more. If the company is profitable, the union only sees an opportunity to fatten it's wallet, not to allow job security by allowing the company to plan for the future.

Bob, Why do you allways have to blame the pilots for managements inability to react to the ever changing market and turn a profit? The NJA pilots were simply doing their jobs as they were trained, required and expected to do and it was their management that chose not to work with them. Once their Management team chose to work with the pilot group with a CBA, they had record profits and growth!

The only difference is that NJA mgt now works with their pilots as a valuable asset instead of treating them as an annoying liability.

 

[gutshotdraw]

And, what do you mean the "least unionized"? Is that like being a little bit pregnant or a little bit dead? A pilot group either is or isn't unionized.:smash:

What a tool.

Not to defend B19 but he was referring to the fact that Delta's pilots are union but the vast majority of the company's other employee groups are not. If memory serves, only the dispatchers or some other small group of employees are union besides the pilots. Mechanics, flight attendants, rampers, etc. are not union. Delta has the lowest percentage of unionized employees of any major U.S. airline.

Details clarified. Resume B19 bashing.

 

[Guitar Guy]

AA has unions for its pilots, mechanics, dispatchers, flight attendants and rampers yet they didn't file bankruptcy in the wake of 9/11.

And Don Carty lost his job for trying to get the unions to accept concessionary contracts under the guise of shared pain while secretly setting up "retention bonuses" for select management personnel.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Not to defend B19 but he was referring to the fact that Delta's pilots are union but the vast majority of the company's other employee groups are not. If memory serves, only the dispatchers or some other small group of employees are union besides the pilots. Mechanics, flight attendants, rampers, etc. are not union. Delta has the lowest percentage of unionized employees of any major U.S. airline.

Details clarified. Resume B19 bashing.

Thank you, it's only the pilots and dispatchers. For that reason bankruptcy was held off the longest there. I need to remind those that mentioned AA, that the pilot's union did not act until management was walking up the stairs to the courthouse and they realized that they needed to do something before the judge forced them to. They didn't act in the best interest of the carrier, they acted in the best interest of the union.

 

[Guitar Guy]

So why did Don Carty leave AA?

 

[Ultra Grump]

Majors were profitable even with the large contracts, but when the industry hiccuped, nearly all but Delta was forced into bankruptcy protection because the unions didn't act fast enough.

BS. Since you're supposedly "airline management," here's a tip for you to help your carrier avoid bankruptcy during the next "hiccup:" charge the customer at least what it costs to provide the service. If fuel prices go up (the last "hiccup"), so should the ticket prices, rather than hitting the employees up for concessions.

 

[dime line]

BS. Since you're supposedly "airline management," here's a tip for you to help your carrier avoid bankruptcy during the next "hiccup:" charge the customer at least what it costs to provide the service. If fuel prices go up (the last "hiccup"), so should the ticket prices, rather than hitting the employees up for concessions.

Hes too dumb to understand what you said.......Because he is part of the management team that can't figure that out........

 

[WabiSabi]

I need to remind those that mentioned AA, that the pilot's union did not act until management was walking up the stairs to the courthouse and they realized that they needed to do something before the judge forced them to. They didn't act in the best interest of the carrier, they acted in the best interest of the union.

Nice try. Sorry Bob, you're glossing over your gross omission doesn't cut it. You were caught with your pants down because you omitted one "minor" fact. I wouldn't hold you to this but, since you pay so much lip service to your exalted knowledge of the industry, it is inexcusable. It's simple. You're reaching.

Babble on Bob, babble on.

 

[SilverSurfer]

Spiral continues

The death spiral continues at Options.

For the second year in a row management has screwed its employees by reducing benefits and raising the cost.

When their peak travel season is a disaster this year and charter sell off cost them 50 mil just to keep the doors open they will blame the pilots. All they need to do to understand what is wrong at Flops is look in the mirror. Sh!thead and Baboo need to go.

This place is a joke.

 

[dash_trash]

Babu - Wikipedia

In British India, "Babu" was a term used to describe a native Indian clerk. The word was originally used as a term of respect attached to a proper name, but later, especially when used alone and not as a suffix, was a derogatory word signifying a semi-literate native, with a mere veneer of modern education. In the early 20th century the term Babu was frequently used to refer to bureaucrats and other government officials, especially by the Indian media; in this sense the word hints at corrupt or lazy work practices. It can also mean the pimp or client of a sex worker. The term babu has thus fallen out of favour in polite society, since it may be taken as an insult.

:laugh:

 

[SilverSurfer]

So Sorry

In British India, "Babu" was a term used to describe a native Indian clerk. The word was originally used as a term of respect attached to a proper name, but later, especially when used alone and not as a suffix, was a derogatory word signifying a semi-literate native, with a mere veneer of modern education. In the early 20th century the term Babu was frequently used to refer to bureaucrats and other government officials, especially by the Indian media; in this sense the word hints at corrupt or lazy work practices. It can also mean the pimp or client of a sex worker. The term babu has thus fallen out of favour in polite society, since it may be taken as an insult.

So sorry my brother, I didn't know the proper spelling of our esteemed second in command's new name. "Babu" goes right along with Sh!thead!:laugh:

 

[FRLWD]

I need to remind those that mentioned AA, that the pilot's union did not act until management was walking up the stairs to the courthouse and they realized that they needed to do something before the judge forced them to. They didn't act in the best interest of the carrier, they acted in the best interest of the union.

You keep regurgitating the same lies over and over again.

The pilots union at AA refused to take concessions until management allowed them to look at the books, so they could make an informed decision. Management agreed; the pilots signed non-disclosure agreements, hired corporate finance attorneys to help sift through the information, then drafted a concessionary contract based on the information and advice provided by their attorneys.................A far cry from chasing management up the courthouse steps.

What's next? You going to regurgitate those articles about airline finance from seven years ago?

 

[B19 Flyer]

You keep regurgitating the same lies over and over again.

The pilots union at AA refused to take concessions until management allowed them to look at the books, so they could make an informed decision. Management agreed; the pilots signed non-disclosure agreements, hired corporate finance attorneys to help sift through the information, then drafted a concessionary contract based on the information and advice provided by their attorneys.................A far cry from chasing management up the courthouse steps.

What's next? You going to regurgitate those articles about airline finance from seven years ago?

Let me rephrase my statement. The union didn't act until the carrier was on the edge of bankruptcy. The financial situation didn't happen overnight, it never does. The union ALWAYS waits until the carrier is financially drained before acting, even when the writing is already on the wall as it was early in 2001. Instead of acting with with the best interest of the carrier and the employees the union represents, they would rather wait until the rank and file employees go through several layoffs, a hiring freeze and furloughs. Then, the carrier is forced to use a tool such as bankruptcy to reduce labor costs to a point where the carrier can survive.

Oh, and as far as the seven year old info, that was only to point out that the industry was hurting LONG before 9/11. But the unions as always failed to act.

 

[SilverSurfer]

All mighty management

B19 or Bob T. who gives a sh!t. They are obviously cut from the same piece of defective cloth. Both have the opinion that management is the pinnacle of achievement in aviation, that management is the fix for all that ails us, and that they/management should prosper in bad times while their employees should take it in the shorts. He and Bob think all of us pilots are a bunch of ignorant whining "A types" that should just be thankful that we have a job and do what ever he and his mooron PM/PSM group tells us...:angryfire NOT happening Bob.

B19 talked about the Airlines Unions and the pilots waiting till looming bankruptcy before giving concessions. At least they did pitch in to help. But what about management, did they take cuts in pay and benefits, did they work more, if they did are they now going to have fight to get back what they gave up. Hell no. In fact they will get large bonuses far and above anything they may have given up and far more then the pilots will get.

B19/Bob you have have a VERY biased, one sided view of the world. In your world management is everything and everyone else is here to serve them....
uke: NOT

 

[dime line]

Let me rephrase my statement. The union didn't act until the carrier was on the edge of bankruptcy. The financial situation didn't happen overnight, it never does. The union ALWAYS waits until the carrier is financially drained before acting, even when the writing is already on the wall as it was early in 2001. Instead of acting with with the best interest of the carrier and the employees the union represents, they would rather wait until the rank and file employees go through several layoffs, a hiring freeze and furloughs. Then, the carrier is forced to use a tool such as bankruptcy to reduce labor costs to a point where the carrier can survive.

Oh, and as far as the seven year old info, that was only to point out that the industry was hurting LONG before 9/11. But the unions as always failed to act.

you say the unions fail to act, what about you and your management not acting right now here at FLOPS, do you have a matrix on the number of owners that have left, why have they left you ask? just look at your boss. have you figured out where your gonna get new pilots? have you figured it out that were gonna fight you till the very end?