Ole Gardner checking up on Flight Options

[dime line]

See no evil;

Hear no evil;

Speak no evil;

Join a union;

Have no fun! :laugh:

Moron.........See "nomore" wasnt that fun

 

[netjetwife]

You guys ever notice how management's salaries are unknown while pilot wages are discussed openly...

They expect you skilled, experienced professionals to perform flawlessly, interact graciously with clients, and make judgment calls that impact safety---all for sub par, blue collar wages while they sit at desks working regular hours, going home each evening, and then they have the gall to blame the pilots for problems caused by their mismanagement! Giving professionals a fair contract would end the labor strife quickly. How many executives work without a contract? How many of the white collar positions in the company pay blue collar wages? Let's compare mid-level managers' salaries to the pilots'. Oh wait....Flight Options doesn't want to do that, huh?

 

[SilverSurfer]

Real Increased Risk

OK B-19/Bob let's ask some questions and look at who really causes and has the risk placed on them.

You said, "writing up items that would not normally be written up".

Are you suggesting that our pilots not record known discrepancies? Are you suggesting that our pilots operate an aircraft with known discrepancies? Are you suggesting that our pilots operate in violation of FAR's? Our maintenance and management personnel putting pressure on our pilots to operate in a illegal manner puts increases human factors stress on our pilots in the cockpit, REAL INCREASED RISK, not at some schedulers, maintenance coordinator or managers desk.

You said, "Not supporting the company by refusing ALL overtime, no matter how small it is adds operational demands to all people in the operation and creates additional human factors issues and INCREASES RISK."

The over time stand that the Union has taken was a result of threats of layoffs and forced vacation. I heard that union leadership had conversation with you regarding lifting the OT ban if the forced vacation came to a halt. We still have forced vacation. You and your buddies call it by a new name but it is still forced vacation. You made your bed Bob, get comfortable in it. Forcing our pilots to take vacation during times that prevent them form planning quality time with their families causes additional stress on them thereby producing REAL INCREASED RISK.

You Said, "Causing cancellations and forcing passengers onto charter flights that are not owned by the company INCREASES RISK to the ower."

Bob we are not causing these cancellations, you are. We as pilots are mandated to disclose discrepancies on our aircraft when we discover them. The problem Bob is that in many cases our company management chooses not to fix the discrepancies, pencil whip them and send the jet back out. This results is the same discrepancy being recorded again and another cancellation or delay. You want to fix this problem Bob have your Maintenance personnel to start really fix our jets rather the waving the ink pen over them. Additional repeat write ups, additional stressful interaction with maintenance and management, translates to additional REAL INCREASED RISK in the cockpit.

You said, "Apparently, because the union is not capable of negotiating a contract without tactics such as these, you are an advocate of INCREASED RISK."

Bob I think our union negotiators are very competent to negotiate a contract at the table. They are not the problem Bob, it a unmotivated company management, doing everything they can to drag their feet, stone wall, delay, and ignore industry standard, that causes the negotiation process to be drawn out much longer then is necessary. You, Ford & Harrison, the moorons that sit in upper management are the culprits responsible for the negotiations process to cause stress that produces REAL INCREASED RISK on the entire company.

Bottom line Bob, if you want to fix all the crap that you are trying to sell here, get serious about getting a contract done. Its that simple.

The rest of you post was your normal anti union BS.

Have a nice day Bob.

 

[Myster79]

Delaying flights intentionally by writing up items that would not normally be written up creates additional human factors issues and INCREASES RISK.

Not supporting the company by refusing ALL overtime, no matter how small it is adds operational demands to all people in the operation and creates additional human factors issues and INCREASES RISK.

Causing cancellations and forcing passengers onto charter flights that are not owned by the company INCREASES RISK to the ower.

Apparently, because the union is not capable of negotiating a contract without tactics such as these, you are an advocate of INCREASED RISK.

If I thought for a moment that any union would come on and not threaten the careers of rank and file employees, the financial health of the company or increase risk during the negotiation process I wouldn't feel the way I do but history has shown otherwise.

Oh, and while I'm talking about history, get off the NJ short term contract effects and lets talk INDUSTRY. Every carrier has had a union agreement and at times has been profitable.

Yet every carrier since the beginning of time has has labor trouble and unions have been slow to react forcing carriers into bankruptcy as a result.

B19 your post concerns me.

We are professional pilots and when an aircraft is found to have a discrepancy our job is simple. We write the aircraft up and report the find to MX control. Then it is up to MX to either fix, MEL or MDL the item. Of course they can only MEL / MDL the item if it is approved to do so. Another problem with this though is FLT OPTS MX likes to abuse the MEL and MDL.

We are responsible to our passengers to ensure that we do our jobs correctly and professionally.

You stated that intentionally writing up items that would normally not be written up creates additional human factors..... To who? Also, what items are you talking about?

This really concerns me that you actually think that there is a difference. You are basically saying that some items can be broken. Well you're right, but only after we write the aircraft up and the items are MEL'd or MDL'd. We are not authorized to decide what is acceptable and what is not. We are only doing our jobs. The people in CLE think this is personal. It is our duty as professional aviators and we owe it to the people we fly.

You seem to know your history. Have you ever researched aircraft accidents? There has been countless times when planes departed with a couple of minor problems. They were items viewed as not a safety of flight item. Well they weren't until they had another failure in flight. Now those items that were deemed minor before departure are directly responsible for bringing the aircraft down. I know this to be fact.

As far as scheduling and overtime. I have never worked for a company that is as poor at scheduling then FLT OPTS. Furthermore, we are treated so poorly, by the end of our 8 day rotation, the last thing we want to do is stay an extra day.

You commented about charter. I am glad you did. I can not tell you how many times I called scheduling hours before departure to alert them of a scheduling problem. You know what they tell us? It has been noted, but were not changing it. Well, I tried! There is also the times they duty us on at 0430 in the morning for a 1400 departure. You want to guess what happened that time? Weather moved in and we had a ground stop. We could not do the trip because we ran out of duty time. Oh and just in case you didn't guess, they had to charter the trip. This of course is our fault also. We should have stopped the thunderstorms from moving in.

The problems do not occur because of the pilots. We are only doing the professional job that Options hired us to do. You want someone to blame? Blame the incompetent management, schedulers and maintenance. But, that would be to hard to admit that they are really at fault. It is just easier to blame the pilots and the union.

I see under your ratings it states "desk". I am very glad to see that. We need pilots like you at a desk. Because God help the passengers if you were behind the controls.

 

[GerryG]

Delaying flights intentionally by writing up items that would not normally be written up creates additional human factors issues and INCREASES RISK.

Not supporting the company by refusing ALL overtime, no matter how small it is adds operational demands to all people in the operation and creates additional human factors issues and INCREASES RISK.

Causing cancellations and forcing passengers onto charter flights that are not owned by the company INCREASES RISK to the ower.

Apparently, because the union is not capable of negotiating a contract without tactics such as these, you are an advocate of INCREASED RISK.

If I thought for a moment that any union would come on and not threaten the careers of rank and file employees, the financial health of the company or increase risk during the negotiation process I wouldn't feel the way I do but history has shown otherwise.

Oh, and while I'm talking about history, get off the NJ short term contract effects and lets talk INDUSTRY. Every carrier has had a union agreement and at times has been profitable.

Yet every carrier since the beginning of time has has labor trouble and unions have been slow to react forcing carriers into bankruptcy as a result.

Wow, that's pretty specific for a guy who doesn't even work at Flops.

With regard to your last comment, I think you know that in most cases bankruptcy is actually used by management as a tool to force unions back to the bargaining table.

Also, I think you also know that the types of actions you describe above have never been endorsed by the union. They are in fact the result of frustration on the part of individual pilots.

If you truly want to protect the office workers, as you say. Why not step up to the bargaining table and get this thing done. Balls in your court. Take some responsibility for your actions man, stop trying to lay it all of on the union. Yes I know some of the blame comes from above your head, but perhaps spending a little more time engaged in negotiations would help. Yea I heard you've been telling the pilots -again- that "the union doesn't want more bargaining sessions", that's a lie and you know it.

Point is, you have the power to make all the labor strife end by getting the contract finished. If this thing ends up in the toilet, it will be remembered that you and your cronies put it there and that will make two black marks next to your name. Time to stop listening to that union busting law firm and get-er-done. The pilots are way past the fear stage, know what I mean?

 

[Hobbes]

B-19 is a blubbering idiot. FUD flinging moron. EVERY single pilot I know who is anti-union avoids these boards like the plague. That is why they are anti-union, they are so against confrontation and any anxiety over things that they just bury their heads in the sand. So there is no doubt that this jackass is BT or even a lackey from FH getting on here to spread the FUD.

This pilot right here just made a change. From now on, all acts of mx incompetency, fraudulent signoffs, and pilot pushing are not only going on ASAP but will also be reported to the FAA hotline.

800-255-1111

http://www.thebark.org/docs/faasafe.htm

http://faa.gov/safety/

And as far as mgmt salaries being known? A PSM just told us the other day that he is being paid 105,000. And he is way down the seniority list. What are they being paid for? Certainly not good management. They are being paid for keeping their mouths shut about all the illegal and immoral acts they see and are forced to commit.

I can't imagine there is a single soul that would be sold by the FUD this idiot is flinging from his crystal palace, but it is entertaining and enlightening to see him come on here and show his true colors.

I usually peel SCABS off and flush them down the toilet. We will do the same thing here.

 

[B19 Flyer]

B19 your post concerns me.

We are professional pilots and when an aircraft is found to have a discrepancy our job is simple. We write the aircraft up and report the find to MX control. Then it is up to MX to either fix, MEL or MDL the item. Of course they can only MEL / MDL the item if it is approved to do so. Another problem with this though is FLT OPTS MX likes to abuse the MEL and MDL.

We are responsible to our passengers to ensure that we do our jobs correctly and professionally.

You stated that intentionally writing up items that would normally not be written up creates additional human factors..... To who? Also, what items are you talking about?

This really concerns me that you actually think that there is a difference. You are basically saying that some items can be broken. Well you're right, but only after we write the aircraft up and the items are MEL'd or MDL'd. We are not authorized to decide what is acceptable and what is not. We are only doing our jobs. The people in CLE think this is personal. It is our duty as professional aviators and we owe it to the people we fly.

You seem to know your history. Have you ever researched aircraft accidents? There has been countless times when planes departed with a couple of minor problems. They were items viewed as not a safety of flight item. Well they weren't until they had another failure in flight. Now those items that were deemed minor before departure are directly responsible for bringing the aircraft down. I know this to be fact.

As far as scheduling and overtime. I have never worked for a company that is as poor at scheduling then FLT OPTS. Furthermore, we are treated so poorly, by the end of our 8 day rotation, the last thing we want to do is stay an extra day.

You commented about charter. I am glad you did. I can not tell you how many times I called scheduling hours before departure to alert them of a scheduling problem. You know what they tell us? It has been noted, but were not changing it. Well, I tried! There is also the times they duty us on at 0430 in the morning for a 1400 departure. You want to guess what happened that time? Weather moved in and we had a ground stop. We could not do the trip because we ran out of duty time. Oh and just in case you didn't guess, they had to charter the trip. This of course is our fault also. We should have stopped the thunderstorms from moving in.

The problems do not occur because of the pilots. We are only doing the professional job that Options hired us to do. You want someone to blame? Blame the incompetent management, schedulers and maintenance. But, that would be to hard to admit that they are really at fault. It is just easier to blame the pilots and the union.

I see under your ratings it states "desk". I am very glad to see that. We need pilots like you at a desk. Because God help the passengers if you were behind the controls.

First, my response was directed at all those that agreed with the concepts the "Gardner" stated about adhering to the "rules".

Next, I have seen one specific airline get to the point where they had to define drips and drops of fluid and what would constitute a paint chip or peel. The delay would occur when maintenance would be called to detirmine if the 1/4" puddle on the ground or oily strunt without a puddle after an 8 hour overnight constituted a leaky nose wheel strut to ground a 1900C. Same with paint chips. These are what I call unwarranted BS write-ups but this carrier was smart enough to define them and eliminate the problem. If Flight Ops is smart, they too will create guidelines as such to prevent unwarranted writeups. Pilots aren't mechanics and sometimes they need a little help to detirmine what is truly a problem, and what is there to disrupt an airline out of spite to support the union.

 

[B19 Flyer]

OK B-19/Bob let's ask some questions and look at who really causes and has the risk placed on them.

You said, "writing up items that would not normally be written up".

Are you suggesting that our pilots not record known discrepancies? Are you suggesting that our pilots operate an aircraft with known discrepancies? Are you suggesting that our pilots operate in violation of FAR's? Our maintenance and management personnel putting pressure on our pilots to operate in a illegal manner puts increases human factors stress on our pilots in the cockpit, REAL INCREASED RISK, not at some schedulers, maintenance coordinator or managers desk.

You said, "Not supporting the company by refusing ALL overtime, no matter how small it is adds operational demands to all people in the operation and creates additional human factors issues and INCREASES RISK."

The over time stand that the Union has taken was a result of threats of layoffs and forced vacation. I heard that union leadership had conversation with you regarding lifting the OT ban if the forced vacation came to a halt. We still have forced vacation. You and your buddies call it by a new name but it is still forced vacation. You made your bed Bob, get comfortable in it. Forcing our pilots to take vacation during times that prevent them form planning quality time with their families causes additional stress on them thereby producing REAL INCREASED RISK.

You Said, "Causing cancellations and forcing passengers onto charter flights that are not owned by the company INCREASES RISK to the ower."

Bob we are not causing these cancellations, you are. We as pilots are mandated to disclose discrepancies on our aircraft when we discover them. The problem Bob is that in many cases our company management chooses not to fix the discrepancies, pencil whip them and send the jet back out. This results is the same discrepancy being recorded again and another cancellation or delay. You want to fix this problem Bob have your Maintenance personnel to start really fix our jets rather the waving the ink pen over them. Additional repeat write ups, additional stressful interaction with maintenance and management, translates to additional REAL INCREASED RISK in the cockpit.

You said, "Apparently, because the union is not capable of negotiating a contract without tactics such as these, you are an advocate of INCREASED RISK."

Bob I think our union negotiators are very competent to negotiate a contract at the table. They are not the problem Bob, it a unmotivated company management, doing everything they can to drag their feet, stone wall, delay, and ignore industry standard, that causes the negotiation process to be drawn out much longer then is necessary. You, Ford & Harrison, the moorons that sit in upper management are the culprits responsible for the negotiations process to cause stress that produces REAL INCREASED RISK on the entire company.

Bottom line Bob, if you want to fix all the crap that you are trying to sell here, get serious about getting a contract done. Its that simple.

The rest of you post was your normal anti union BS.

Have a nice day Bob.

First, I'm not Bob,

Second, how can I not have a nice day?

I work at a non-union airline! :laugh:

 

[SilverSurfer]

Mel & Mdl

Sure you're not Bob, Bob.


But seriously Bob "Pilots aren't mechanics and sometimes they need a little help to determine what is truly a problem, and what is there to disrupt an airline out of spite to support the union. "

Bob, we pilots do not have to be mechanics. If we see something that is questionable on our jets we write it. If its broke its broke, maintenance can fix it or MEL or MDL it if its allowed, but the problem should and must be recorded prior to flight.


Bob you aren't pushing pilots to do illegal things are you?

 

[Myster79]

First, my response was directed at all those that agreed with the concepts the "Gardner" stated about adhering to the "rules".

Next, I have seen one specific airline get to the point where they had to define drips and drops of fluid and what would constitute a paint chip or peel. The delay would occur when maintenance would be called to detirmine if the 1/4" puddle on the ground or oily strunt without a puddle after an 8 hour overnight constituted a leaky nose wheel strut to ground a 1900C. Same with paint chips. These are what I call unwarranted BS write-ups but this carrier was smart enough to define them and eliminate the problem. If Flight Ops is smart, they too will create guidelines as such to prevent unwarranted writeups. Pilots aren't mechanics and sometimes they need a little help to detirmine what is truly a problem, and what is there to disrupt an airline out of spite to support the union.

B19 the problem is, there is no such thing as a BS unwarranted write up! If the aircraft has a discrepancy then it needs to be wrote up.

It sounds like you worked for a less than credible airline.

Also, Options can come up with all the guidelines they want. What it comes down to is that myself and my partner are final authority on that aircraft. If the manufacturer states that an item can not be MEL'd or MDL'd then the aircraft will sit until it is fixed correctly.

Regardless of contract negotiations, I will preflight an aircraft exactly the same way every time. If the company does not like that then they need to close the doors. We are not in a business where we can pick and choose what needs fixed. We owe it to the owners to ensure they are being taken care of.

Furthermore, If Flight Options is smart, they will stop wasting so much time, money and effort in ways they can get around the system! Just fix the aircraft correct the first time and start holding everyone accountable for being the worst fractional in the industry.

The pilot group is stronger than ever before and will not sit idle and let management ruin our company. Yes, this our company. Without us there would be no Flight Options. The only reason why we still have owners is because of the pilot group. They tell us this all the time. We will not be intimidated anymore. Fix the problems, pay us industry standard and we can all get this thing turned around. If they can't or won't do this, then they need to shut the doors! It is out of our hands now.