NWA wants DOH

[MJ42]

We would be 73N FO's. Not just 88 FO's we have hired that many.
What this points out is that our early 07 hires are in fact enjoying the same bidding authority that your late 99 hires are. That is why we are slotted in with your late 99 hire 320 FO's.
FWIW we have 623 M88 FO slots system wide. We have hired over 700 pilots since Feb of 2007. This equates to aprox. 80 "new hires" that fit this bill.
We can argue the staple but that comes to gauge of aircraft.

Okay, but, how does that fit in to your mid 08 hires, who are 88 reserve, being senior to 00 DEC hires at NWA? Can't say because of gauge of aircraft.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Everyone at NWA doesn't bid the most senior equipment they can hold..nor do they at DAL.

The reason the DAL proposal worked out the way it did was due to "stovepipe" which assumed everyone bid the most senior equipment possible. All the nwa dc-9 and 747 SO positions went below our list..since they would be considered junior to the md-88- which is bigger than the 319 (only 3 seats smaller than the 320..the md-90 is 7 seats bigger than the 320).


That is the answer to your question.

Why are the number 7 and 8 guys on your list on the 757? Does the quality of life stink so bad on whale and megapoodle?

 

[FDJ2]

P.S. responded too soon to quote your 330 block holder question but I know what you're getting at, they're senior. So??? It's a senior position at NWA for a reason, 767er is junior at DAL for a reason as well.

Probably because the DC-9 position is sooooooo miserable.

Wide bodied flying goes more junior at DAL because we have twice as much wide bodied international flying as NWA and it has experienced significant growth due to DAL's rapidly expanding international operation. DAL also has super premium non international flying which is an attractive alternative. DAL has twice as many super premium paying 757 flying positions as NWA. DAL 737 flying pays more than an NWA 757 and DAL MD-88s are paid on par, within a couple of bucks, with NWA 757s.

Perhaps the reason wide bodied flying is so senior at NWA is because it is a stagnant, or shrinking category and the narrow bodied flying at NWA is in small, old, low paying aircraft.

 

[MJ42]

Everyone at NWA doesn't bid the most senior equipment they can hold..nor do they at DAL.

The reason the DAL proposal worked out the way it did was due to "stovepipe" which assumed everyone bid the most senior equipment possible. All the nwa dc-9 and 747 SO positions went below our list..since they would be considered junior to the md-88- which is bigger than the 319 (only 3 seats smaller than the 320..the md-90 is 7 seats bigger than the 320).


That is the answer to your question.

Why are the number 7 and 8 guys on your list on the 757? Does the quality of life stink so bad on whale and megapoodle?

I don't know? Go email them since we can now communicate via company email. That's like asking why 88 f/o's who can hold the 76 or better still bid the 88? Does 75/76 QOL suck that bad?

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Depends on what you are looking for. I prefer to bid 767 reserve than fly a line on the 88. Being in base helps.

 

[skystud25]

So? Where does that make them sit on DAL's current list? Bottom 3% or less?

P.S. responded too soon to quote your 330 block holder question but I know what you're getting at, they're senior. So??? It's a senior position at NWA for a reason, 767er is junior at DAL for a reason as well.

And if those airplane/base positions existed at NWA, where do you think they'd be on the seniority list? Exactly, senior to all of the 9 and small Airbus positions except for those persons who wanted to live in domicile in one of your frozen, crappy junior bases. It seems what you're asking for is a current junior NWA pilot, on a list for years but probably on furlough and actually on property flying for only a few years, to get Delta widebody flying out of a Delta base, the large pay and benefit increases, and immediate furlough protection at the expense of junior Delta pilots. Seems like a windfall to me, but of course I'm partial.

 

[DTW320]

A

ll the nwa dc-9 and 747 SO positions went below our list..since they would be considered junior to the md-88- which is bigger than the 319 (only 3 seats smaller than the 320..the md-90 is 7 seats bigger than the 320).

NWA A320's seat 148 . Check your numbers.
DAL MD88 = 142 seats
MD90 = 150 seats.

 

[Superpilot92]

Everyone at NWA doesn't bid the most senior equipment they can hold..nor do they at DAL.

The reason the DAL proposal worked out the way it did was due to "stovepipe" which assumed everyone bid the most senior equipment possible. All the nwa dc-9 and 747 SO positions went below our list..since they would be considered junior to the md-88- which is bigger than the 319 (only 3 seats smaller than the 320..the md-90 is 7 seats bigger than the 320).


That is the answer to your question.

Why are the number 7 and 8 guys on your list on the 757? Does the quality of life stink so bad on whale and megapoodle?

Problem with that argument is that 10% of the NWA list being stapled doesnt represent the "stovepipe" method. So even though there are a number of other problems with the DAL list proposal, the above isnt even a "fair" stovepipe. Btw the SO position pays more than the narrowbody equipment.

Both sides proposals have their own issues and thats exactly why its in arbitration. Whats "fair" to your side may not and likely isnt "fair" to our side and vice versa.

The end is near!!

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

So? Where does that make them sit on DAL's current list? Bottom 3% or less?

P.S. responded too soon to quote your 330 block holder question but I know what you're getting at, they're senior. So??? It's a senior position at NWA for a reason, 767er is junior at DAL for a reason as well.

MJ- my quote in regards to the #7 and 8 guys on your list was mocking this quote. The 767ER goes junior at DL for people bidding what they want to bid for goodness knows how many reasons. I get my number 1 or 2 choice every month for reserve. It's nice just looking through what I want and picking it. You can't beat living in base- what many(most) NWA guys have never experienced (another reason the 7ER out of nyc goes so junior... why commute when you can be a senior lineholder in base?). Also remember there are just that many 767 slots at DL.



DTW320- I was a couple numbers off... still doesnt change my point that the md88-90 are about the same size or slightly larger than the minipoodle.


Superpilot- I partly agree... to me the logical thing would have been to put the whale captain staffing slots in front of our number 1. Their logic does make sense in regards to the bottom slots. The fact is that both the NWA proposal and DAL proposals were slanted to favor either side and let the arbiters go from there.

 

[DAL737FO]

Problem with that argument is that 10% of the NWA list being stapled doesnt represent the "stovepipe" method. So even though there are a number of other problems with the DAL list proposal, the above isnt even a "fair" stovepipe. Btw the SO position pays more than the narrowbody equipment.

Both sides proposals have their own issues and thats exactly why its in arbitration. Whats "fair" to your side may not and likely isnt "fair" to our side and vice versa.

The end is near!!

Superpilot92,

Honest question how does it not represent the stovepipe method? If I understand the stovepipe method it just puts the people in the senior most position they can hold. Since Delta doesn't have anything the same size as the DC9 where do you think it would go?

 

[MJ42]

And if those airplane/base positions existed at NWA, where do you think they'd be on the seniority list? Exactly, senior to all of the 9 and small Airbus positions except for those persons who wanted to live in domicile in one of your frozen, crappy junior bases. It seems what you're asking for is a current junior NWA pilot, on a list for years but probably on furlough and actually on property flying for only a few years, to get Delta widebody flying out of a Delta base, the large pay and benefit increases, and immediate furlough protection at the expense of junior Delta pilots. Seems like a windfall to me, but of course I'm partial.

Hardly...anyway wouldn't you keep your precious wide body flying with fences? You keep your wide body flying, I'll take a fair seniority list, how about that?

All superpilot and I are saying is BOTH sides think the others proposal is unfair. The arbitrators gave a hint that they may be leaning toward a middle ground between the proposals. I think this surprised most of you. I'll accept a list in the middle of both proposals, will you guys?

 

[Klamath]

I understand DAL's "Stovepipe" approach but I do not agree with it's application.

On 01/01/2009, pay for the MD-80 will be $72.24 and for the DC-9 $71.73 (for a second year pilot).

To place 500 or so NWA pilots at the bottom over a .51 cent difference in pay doesn't make sense.

I don't know what the deal is with DAL 737 (200/300), do you have any? The 200 and 300 pay THE SAME as a DC-9! How does that fit in your "stovepipe?"

Just my opinion....

 

[Fly4hire]

There is only one viable solution that protects everyone's future asymmetric attrition, and that is a dynamic list. It's not hard, nor anymore complicated to administer than fences - the programs are written, we will have contract compliance monitoring from both sides. It is essentially nothing more than dynamic fencing if you will, adjusted for each pilot that retires on either side on an ongoing basis. Who care if it's never been done before - there are lots of firsts in this merger. Let's roll up our sleeves and get it done. The only objection I can see with a properly constructed dynamic list is it gives up the ability to disadvantage the former NWA pilots.

 

[Klamath]

Superpilot92,

Honest question how does it not represent the stovepipe method? If I understand the stovepipe method it just puts the people in the senior most position they can hold. Since Delta doesn't have anything the same size as the DC9 where do you think it would go?

In return, where do you think the 747 guys should go? On the DAL proposed list, they didn't take the all the top slots so why the DC-9 all the bottom ones?

 

[GogglesPisano]

In return, where do you think the 747 guys should go? On the DAL proposed list, they didn't take the all the top slots so why the DC-9 all the bottom ones?

It goes by pay. 747-400 is equivalent to the 777. DC-9 is at the bottom because it pays the least.