NWA wants DOH

[FDJ2]

Those darn computers!


Bye Bye--General Lee

Garbage in, garbage out.

 

[Donsa320]

But didn't Red Book cry murder about their wide-body "career expectations"?

Oh, they did indeed and in fact they gave many Republic guys a very hard time in DC-10 transition. One of them left a tape recorder running in the sim break room and caught a conversation between a couple of red book instructors as to how they would make sure the green book pilot would fail his ride. The lawyers had a ball with that. Nasty times.

I would hope that this merger goes more smoothly but I would not bet on it. It is all up to the people involved on both sides.

 

[General Lee]

Oh, they did indeed and in fact they gave many Republic guys a very hard time in DC-10 transition. One of them left a tape recorder running in the sim break room and caught a conversation between a couple of red book instructors as to how they would make sure the green book pilot would fail his ride. The lawyers had a ball with that. Nasty times.

I would hope that this merger goes more smoothly but I would not bet on it. It is all up to the people involved on both sides.

True Don, and it all starts with the opening positions. They went one way with DOH (far left), and we could have gone the polar opposite and said "Staple." Instead, we threw in relative seniority with a small chunk at the bottom due to outgoing airplanes. You can't really say "let's find some middle ground" since they started far left and we started in the middle. We'll see who we are dealing with soon I suppose.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[castle bravo]

Oh, they did indeed and in fact they gave many Republic guys a very hard time in DC-10 transition. "


This is the entire point. Now that the shoe is on the other foot.............

 

[Donsa320]

True Don, and it all starts with the opening positions. They went one way with DOH (far left), and we could have gone the polar opposite and said "Staple." Instead, we threw in relative seniority with a small chunk at the bottom due to outgoing airplanes. You can't really say "let's find some middle ground" since they started far left and we started in the middle. We'll see who we are dealing with soon I suppose.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Yes, General, I understand your point.

I am long gone now but NWA was my 3rd merger, Southern and then Hughes Airwest were first. Southern went the easiest IMHO. I would like to add that Southern had a 13 airplane commuter operation as well. But those Metro pilots were on the Southern list and they came right along with the mainline pilots. We had no problem with that. Too bad that is not the way it is now.

Good luck to you all.

DC

 

[recallsomeday]

So, you're only going up $15 an hour? Going up 4 years in pay, and then getting a 15-20% raise in pay rates? Really? You see, if you are in the bottom 5% of NWA, shouldn't you be in the bottom 5% of a new company? But, you guys are losing a bunch of planes soon, and we aren't. That is called inequity. You are only adding 18 mystery planes that haven't flown yet. You are adding some retirements, though, just like we are 5 years from now. (of course, we don't know if all of your pilots WILL retire at 60, just like ours).

Bye Bye--General Lee

I can see if one were 5% on the pre merger list, and 5% on the merged SLI.

Why would the DAL proposal put someone who is 10% on the pre-list and barely over 5% on the merged list?

Bottom line is this, you can keep the raise ... seniority is not for SALE. You keep trying to cover your seniority grab with a few dollars and the argument of credit for time on furlough.

 

[MJ42]

I can see if one were 5% on the pre merger list, and 5% on the merged SLI.

Why would the DAL proposal put someone who is 10% on the pre-list and barely over 5% on the merged list?

Bottom line is this, you can keep the raise ... seniority is not for SALE. You keep trying to cover your seniority grab with a few dollars and the argument of credit for time on furlough.

Exactly. Can someone please explain to me how the current DAL eight ball, who has only been on line for a couple of months, can be(relatively speaking) senior to a 00 DEC 19 NWA pilot (baby bus block holder) that has a few hundred pilots below?

I just don't get it.

Bottom line is all DAL pilots think NWA's DOH is unfair. ALL NWA pilots think DAL's relative seniority is unfair for many reasons. We do not think DAL's proposal was in the middle, no matter how you guys try to say it is! Hopefully the arbitrators gave a bit of insight and y'all (practicing my southern lingo) will wake up and realize a middle ground from both PROPOSALS is probably the fairest to all.

I'd like to see DOH for everyone hired after the last recalled pilot on both sides. Also, any new hire after 14 APR on the DAL side (about 48???) knew what they were getting into and therefore shouldn't complain about being on the bottom. Do you think ANY of them would have turned down the offer if they knew they would be on the bottom of the combined list? I don't.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

The pilots that were in the first few classes at DAL came to a Company that was still in BK protection, and knew they were on the front end of a major hiring wave. One that got cut short by the merger.
Doing DOH to these pilots would change their relative seniority by more than 6-7%. That is a major sticking point for DALPA and its membership.
The first few classes at DAL in 07 now put these pilots as line holders on everything except the 765 and 777. Their relative seniority is 88.5-91%. That is a big deal.

 

[castle bravo]

"Exactly. Can someone please explain to me how the current DAL eight ball, who has only been on line for a couple of months, can be(relatively speaking) senior to a 00 DEC 19 NWA pilot (baby bus block holder) that has a few hundred pilots below"?



Because there are 2008-hire DAL eight balls who are 767 international block holders right now? Could that be it? Are there any 2008-hires on the 330 as block holders? Are there even any 1999-hires as 330 block holder?

 

[MJ42]

"Exactly. Can someone please explain to me how the current DAL eight ball, who has only been on line for a couple of months, can be(relatively speaking) senior to a 00 DEC 19 NWA pilot (baby bus block holder) that has a few hundred pilots below"?



Because there are 2008-hire DAL eight balls who are 767 international block holders right now? Could that be it?

What??? The eight ball is THE LAST guy(singular) on DAL's list, and he's no line holder.

 

[castle bravo]

What??? The eight ball is THE LAST guy(singular) on DAL's list, and he's no line holder.

Ok, fine. Let's revise the statement. Ther ARE 2008-hires on the 767 as int'l line holders. Maybe they were hired early 2008 and are not currently the eight ball, but what is the hire date of the most junior 330 block holder?

 

[MJ42]

Ok, fine. Let's revise the statement. Ther ARE 2008-hires on the 767 as int'l line holders.

So? Where does that make them sit on DAL's current list? Bottom 3% or less?

P.S. responded too soon to quote your 330 block holder question but I know what you're getting at, they're senior. So??? It's a senior position at NWA for a reason, 767er is junior at DAL for a reason as well.

 

[castle bravo]

What is the hire date of the most junior 330 block holder?

 

[MJ42]

What is the hire date of the most junior 330 block holder?

Read above...

Ok then, What would a 2008 hire hold if everyone at DAL bid the biggest/highest paying aircraft they could hold?

Still haven't answered my question how the last guy on DAL's list(88 f/o reserve) is relatively senior to a 320 block holder?

All this has been beaten to death on FI. My point was, fair is probably somewhere between both proposals...like it, or not.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

We would be 73N FO's. Not just 88 FO's we have hired that many.
What this points out is that our early 07 hires are in fact enjoying the same bidding authority that your late 99 hires are. That is why we are slotted in with your late 99 hire 320 FO's.
FWIW we have 623 M88 FO slots system wide. We have hired over 700 pilots since Feb of 2007. This equates to aprox. 80 "new hires" that fit this bill.
We can argue the staple but that comes to gauge of aircraft.

 

[MJ42]

We would be 73N FO's. Not just 88 FO's we have hired that many.
What this points out is that our early 07 hires are in fact enjoying the same bidding authority that your late 99 hires are. That is why we are slotted in with your late 99 hire 320 FO's.
FWIW we have 623 M88 FO slots system wide. We have hired over 700 pilots since Feb of 2007. This equates to aprox. 80 "new hires" that fit this bill.
We can argue the staple but that comes to gauge of aircraft.

Okay, but, how does that fit in to your mid 08 hires, who are 88 reserve, being senior to 00 DEC hires at NWA? Can't say because of gauge of aircraft.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Everyone at NWA doesn't bid the most senior equipment they can hold..nor do they at DAL.

The reason the DAL proposal worked out the way it did was due to "stovepipe" which assumed everyone bid the most senior equipment possible. All the nwa dc-9 and 747 SO positions went below our list..since they would be considered junior to the md-88- which is bigger than the 319 (only 3 seats smaller than the 320..the md-90 is 7 seats bigger than the 320).


That is the answer to your question.

Why are the number 7 and 8 guys on your list on the 757? Does the quality of life stink so bad on whale and megapoodle?

 

[FDJ2]

P.S. responded too soon to quote your 330 block holder question but I know what you're getting at, they're senior. So??? It's a senior position at NWA for a reason, 767er is junior at DAL for a reason as well.

Probably because the DC-9 position is sooooooo miserable.

Wide bodied flying goes more junior at DAL because we have twice as much wide bodied international flying as NWA and it has experienced significant growth due to DAL's rapidly expanding international operation. DAL also has super premium non international flying which is an attractive alternative. DAL has twice as many super premium paying 757 flying positions as NWA. DAL 737 flying pays more than an NWA 757 and DAL MD-88s are paid on par, within a couple of bucks, with NWA 757s.

Perhaps the reason wide bodied flying is so senior at NWA is because it is a stagnant, or shrinking category and the narrow bodied flying at NWA is in small, old, low paying aircraft.

 

[MJ42]

Everyone at NWA doesn't bid the most senior equipment they can hold..nor do they at DAL.

The reason the DAL proposal worked out the way it did was due to "stovepipe" which assumed everyone bid the most senior equipment possible. All the nwa dc-9 and 747 SO positions went below our list..since they would be considered junior to the md-88- which is bigger than the 319 (only 3 seats smaller than the 320..the md-90 is 7 seats bigger than the 320).


That is the answer to your question.

Why are the number 7 and 8 guys on your list on the 757? Does the quality of life stink so bad on whale and megapoodle?

I don't know? Go email them since we can now communicate via company email. That's like asking why 88 f/o's who can hold the 76 or better still bid the 88? Does 75/76 QOL suck that bad?

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Depends on what you are looking for. I prefer to bid 767 reserve than fly a line on the 88. Being in base helps.

 

[skystud25]

So? Where does that make them sit on DAL's current list? Bottom 3% or less?

P.S. responded too soon to quote your 330 block holder question but I know what you're getting at, they're senior. So??? It's a senior position at NWA for a reason, 767er is junior at DAL for a reason as well.

And if those airplane/base positions existed at NWA, where do you think they'd be on the seniority list? Exactly, senior to all of the 9 and small Airbus positions except for those persons who wanted to live in domicile in one of your frozen, crappy junior bases. It seems what you're asking for is a current junior NWA pilot, on a list for years but probably on furlough and actually on property flying for only a few years, to get Delta widebody flying out of a Delta base, the large pay and benefit increases, and immediate furlough protection at the expense of junior Delta pilots. Seems like a windfall to me, but of course I'm partial.

 

[DTW320]

A

ll the nwa dc-9 and 747 SO positions went below our list..since they would be considered junior to the md-88- which is bigger than the 319 (only 3 seats smaller than the 320..the md-90 is 7 seats bigger than the 320).

NWA A320's seat 148 . Check your numbers.
DAL MD88 = 142 seats
MD90 = 150 seats.

 

[Superpilot92]

Everyone at NWA doesn't bid the most senior equipment they can hold..nor do they at DAL.

The reason the DAL proposal worked out the way it did was due to "stovepipe" which assumed everyone bid the most senior equipment possible. All the nwa dc-9 and 747 SO positions went below our list..since they would be considered junior to the md-88- which is bigger than the 319 (only 3 seats smaller than the 320..the md-90 is 7 seats bigger than the 320).


That is the answer to your question.

Why are the number 7 and 8 guys on your list on the 757? Does the quality of life stink so bad on whale and megapoodle?

Problem with that argument is that 10% of the NWA list being stapled doesnt represent the "stovepipe" method. So even though there are a number of other problems with the DAL list proposal, the above isnt even a "fair" stovepipe. Btw the SO position pays more than the narrowbody equipment.

Both sides proposals have their own issues and thats exactly why its in arbitration. Whats "fair" to your side may not and likely isnt "fair" to our side and vice versa.

The end is near!!

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

So? Where does that make them sit on DAL's current list? Bottom 3% or less?

P.S. responded too soon to quote your 330 block holder question but I know what you're getting at, they're senior. So??? It's a senior position at NWA for a reason, 767er is junior at DAL for a reason as well.

MJ- my quote in regards to the #7 and 8 guys on your list was mocking this quote. The 767ER goes junior at DL for people bidding what they want to bid for goodness knows how many reasons. I get my number 1 or 2 choice every month for reserve. It's nice just looking through what I want and picking it. You can't beat living in base- what many(most) NWA guys have never experienced (another reason the 7ER out of nyc goes so junior... why commute when you can be a senior lineholder in base?). Also remember there are just that many 767 slots at DL.



DTW320- I was a couple numbers off... still doesnt change my point that the md88-90 are about the same size or slightly larger than the minipoodle.


Superpilot- I partly agree... to me the logical thing would have been to put the whale captain staffing slots in front of our number 1. Their logic does make sense in regards to the bottom slots. The fact is that both the NWA proposal and DAL proposals were slanted to favor either side and let the arbiters go from there.

 

[DAL737FO]

Problem with that argument is that 10% of the NWA list being stapled doesnt represent the "stovepipe" method. So even though there are a number of other problems with the DAL list proposal, the above isnt even a "fair" stovepipe. Btw the SO position pays more than the narrowbody equipment.

Both sides proposals have their own issues and thats exactly why its in arbitration. Whats "fair" to your side may not and likely isnt "fair" to our side and vice versa.

The end is near!!

Superpilot92,

Honest question how does it not represent the stovepipe method? If I understand the stovepipe method it just puts the people in the senior most position they can hold. Since Delta doesn't have anything the same size as the DC9 where do you think it would go?

 

[MJ42]

And if those airplane/base positions existed at NWA, where do you think they'd be on the seniority list? Exactly, senior to all of the 9 and small Airbus positions except for those persons who wanted to live in domicile in one of your frozen, crappy junior bases. It seems what you're asking for is a current junior NWA pilot, on a list for years but probably on furlough and actually on property flying for only a few years, to get Delta widebody flying out of a Delta base, the large pay and benefit increases, and immediate furlough protection at the expense of junior Delta pilots. Seems like a windfall to me, but of course I'm partial.

Hardly...anyway wouldn't you keep your precious wide body flying with fences? You keep your wide body flying, I'll take a fair seniority list, how about that?

All superpilot and I are saying is BOTH sides think the others proposal is unfair. The arbitrators gave a hint that they may be leaning toward a middle ground between the proposals. I think this surprised most of you. I'll accept a list in the middle of both proposals, will you guys?

 

[Klamath]

I understand DAL's "Stovepipe" approach but I do not agree with it's application.

On 01/01/2009, pay for the MD-80 will be $72.24 and for the DC-9 $71.73 (for a second year pilot).

To place 500 or so NWA pilots at the bottom over a .51 cent difference in pay doesn't make sense.

I don't know what the deal is with DAL 737 (200/300), do you have any? The 200 and 300 pay THE SAME as a DC-9! How does that fit in your "stovepipe?"

Just my opinion....

 

[Fly4hire]

There is only one viable solution that protects everyone's future asymmetric attrition, and that is a dynamic list. It's not hard, nor anymore complicated to administer than fences - the programs are written, we will have contract compliance monitoring from both sides. It is essentially nothing more than dynamic fencing if you will, adjusted for each pilot that retires on either side on an ongoing basis. Who care if it's never been done before - there are lots of firsts in this merger. Let's roll up our sleeves and get it done. The only objection I can see with a properly constructed dynamic list is it gives up the ability to disadvantage the former NWA pilots.

 

[Klamath]

Superpilot92,

Honest question how does it not represent the stovepipe method? If I understand the stovepipe method it just puts the people in the senior most position they can hold. Since Delta doesn't have anything the same size as the DC9 where do you think it would go?

In return, where do you think the 747 guys should go? On the DAL proposed list, they didn't take the all the top slots so why the DC-9 all the bottom ones?

 

[GogglesPisano]

In return, where do you think the 747 guys should go? On the DAL proposed list, they didn't take the all the top slots so why the DC-9 all the bottom ones?

It goes by pay. 747-400 is equivalent to the 777. DC-9 is at the bottom because it pays the least.