NWA Straw Poll on TA

[JohnDoe]

quote:
"SJet: Will not cause furloughs."


Wow......if everybody thinks like that, all is lost.

 

[Tref]

Why in God's name would the pilots allow the 76-120 seat planes to be flown under any other banner than Northwest is beside me. Fly them at Northwest under your proposed payscales. Is that so hard to achieve?

The company gets the rates they want, and the pilots get job security of not being sold to the highest bidder down the road. This is un-friggen believable.

Everything 77 seats and up will be flown by mainline. The 76 seaters and below will be somewhere else.

The big difference with the 77-110 seaters from the rest of the mainline are less pay and slightly different work rules. The DC9s do not transition to these rates/rules, but pilots from the 9 could be displaced onto the replacement aircraft (probably EMB195s) as the 9s are parked.

 

[okcplt]

Maybe I should date your daugher, she probably hates you and would enjoy a night on her knees in front of me just to piss you off.

Cheers!

Wow, I guess purple will be impressed with your level of maturity, class, and professionalism.

I didn't know that someone who makes comments like this was the kind of guy that they were looking for.

Guess that explains why I haven't gotten the call,...that and the fact that I don't reside in MeOmfuss.

 

[redflyer65]

Tref, I understand what your trying to say, be if everyone believes that then......What JohnDoe said.

 

[Tref]

Tref, I understand what your trying to say, be if everyone believes that then......What JohnDoe said.

Didn't say it wouldn't cause furloughs. Just clarifying that 77-110 seaters would be flown by mainline if the TA is ratified.

Actually, I'm just as worried about the unlimited 78 seat turboprops that they'd be able to use with absolutely no restrictions. Just a coincidence that the Dash8-Q400 has 78 seats? Don't think so.

 

[Lear70]

Wow, I guess purple will be impressed with your level of maturity, class, and professionalism.

I didn't know that someone who makes comments like this was the kind of guy that they were looking for.

Guess that explains why I haven't gotten the call,...that and the fact that I don't reside in MeOmfuss.

Who said I was interviewing at Purple? Interviews there aren't starting back up until early April, they're just now setting up meet-and-greets.

Incidentally, in case you missed it, I was being facetious and stooping to his level of attack - for my first time EVER on flightinfo. Evidently he's unable to mount an intelligent, well thought-out response to any of the points being argued here regarding the T.A.

But since he doesn't work at Northwest or any of the red-tail fleets, maybe he should stick to arguing about a company he DOES know something about.

And, for the record, with the stated aircraft experience in his profile, to have kids that young he'd either have to have started REALLY late in life on kids or been 18 when hired on at a major to be on the whale by now at ANY legacy carrier. I assumed his kids were in their 20's, as I have a 9 year old myself and I'm 34.

/thread hijack

Yes, if Northwest pilots really believe the DC-9's aren't going away with 76 seat jets on the new FlyI certificate then Northwest is pretty much doomed to the slow death of the junior pilot group. Or maybe NOT so slow at the fast pace Northwest is moving.

Incidentally, if memory serves, Northwest pilots are only entitled to HALF the seats on the 76-seat aircraft. There's a LOT of markets Northwest would like to throw 76-seat aircraft at that the -9's are flying NOW.

 

[Occam's Razor]

So why did NWA buy FLYI certificate then? Does this not concern you?

They did it because they were given permission by NWA pilots in November, 2004 to do so under the Bridge Agreement.

The pilot group voted overwhelmingly to allow it. I think they're trying to set up a 3rd Airlink carrier that can be sold off for a profit, as they did with PCL. In that instance, $190-million from the sale was put into the pilot's pension fund. I approve of that.

I'm not concerned about the purchase of the certificate. I will vote for the T/A because I think it is in my best long-term interest to do so.

 

[Boeingman]

They did it because they were given permission by NWA pilots in November, 2004 to do so under the Bridge Agreement.

The pilot group voted overwhelmingly to allow it. I think they're trying to set up a 3rd Airlink carrier that can be sold off for a profit, as they did with PCL. In that instance, $190-million from the sale was put into the pilot's pension fund. I approve of that.

I'm not concerned about the purchase of the certificate. I will vote for the T/A because I think it is in my best long-term interest to do so.

Different ball game this time in 2006. You still don't see what is coming do you? Personally, I don't think the description long term is synonymous with Northwest Airlines.

No comments reference your council 20 rep. recommendation?

 

[Hvy]

Incidentally, in case you missed it, I was being facetious and stooping to his level of attack - for my first time EVER on flightinfo. Evidently he's unable to mount an intelligent, well thought-out response to any of the points being argued here regarding the T.A.

No, I don't believe you'll ever see me post something like that. My teenage years are behind me. Your comments are indicative of the type of person you are. Your mother would be proud. I'm sure that your interviewers will be impressed also. Please let us know how it turns out.

 

[FlyingFarmer]

Occam's Razor this buds for you!

:uzi: Let's examine Occam's logic. PCL getting sold is good, because it put 190 million in HIS pocket, Sjet is good too. Becasue it has the potential to be sold and put even more money in his pocket.

Here's another scenario that must make perfect sense if we use Occam's logic.

Occam lives on the first floor of a beachfront condo where he is responsible for the first floor and the grounds surrounding the building. Now, many years ago a bank sold off the seawall in front of this building, they used the money they made to buy some stock back. Occam didn't much care at the time, he was working extra trying to pay for his 3rd wifes new rack. As the years have gone buy, the beach has eroded away right up to Occam's steps. One day, a banker shows up. It's the same bank that sold off the seawall! He tells Occam that he has to FIX the problem because they hold Occam's mortgage. So rather than putting up a fight, by telling the banker to "pack sand" he goes out on his trip and comes up with a plan! Pilots are SUCH can-do guys, and they hate confrontation, so when he gets home,
he goes to the bank, takes out another mortgage and buys a big piece of equipment, he then proceeds to put that machine in his basement and dig out all the dirt underneath his foundation to replenish the beach. But he doesn't stop there, he digs AND SELLS SO much dirt, that he actually MAKES 191 million dollars. Enough money to pay off the bank, AND put 190 million dollars in his pocket! What a smart boy Occam is! Of course, who cares about what's left of the building, Occams is moving/retiring, and who cares about the tenants/pilots he leaves behind! Way to go Occam!

Of course we know what is about to happen, that's right people, a storm is brewing.

I see some of the yes voters posting on this thread. They should really be looked at as what they are. They serve only themselves, they always have, and they always will. They serve up such calm and measured tones, vote yes, now is not the time, the judge will give it to us worse, we will liquidate, we will lose the pension, it's like listening to an NPR DJ.

The reason that this job is where it is right now is because too many pilots just like Occam are at all the airlines. Keep your powder dry he says, what is worth fighting for in your book Occam? We really are going right back to the 1930's aren't we. Do you know when ALPA was formed Occam? Do you know anything about the history of this profession? Do you know about the battles that have been fought so that you have been able to enjoy the career you have? I know, it's market forces, it's the LCC's, it's everybodies fault but yours isn't it. Think again and look in the mirror. The legacies are paying this price because for all those years, the legacy pilots have let ALPA keep giving it away and letting the sand wash out a little more each year. The sand is market share, and feed. It has been let go time and time again, and it has cost a pretty penny. Those RJ's have just about broke all the airlines, and for that cause, well, just keep on looking in that mirror.

 

[Lear70]

No, I don't believe you'll ever see me post something like that. My teenage years are behind me. Your comments are indicative of the type of person you are. Your mother would be proud. I'm sure that your interviewers will be impressed also. Please let us know how it turns out.

You sir, do not know me. Your claim that "my comments are indicative of the type of person I am" are farcical at best. The good news is, I know I'm only saying this for your benefit and maybe one or two people new to the board. Everyone else knows me for the level-headed, fun, Captain that I am and have been for the last 10 years since I upgraded on a King Air, followed by every other aircraft you see in my profile.

YOU, however, with your infantile little digs every time someone tried to debate you, have shown your true colors. You just did it again above "Your mother would be proud", incidentally she IS, and then "I'm sure that your interviewers will be mpressed also", and I'm sure one or two of them will be. This ain't my first rodeo.

Don't try to take the high road, just own up to the fact that you couldn't saliently argue the points and denegrated to the "I know you are but what am I" class of taunts and jeers when I stepped in and called you on it. Don't like it? Go get on your jet to Hawaii and worry not, your job is safe... for now.

I don't wish senior pilots at ANY airline any harm, but I wish YOU specifically to one day look up and see a T.A. that says a guy 30 years your junior from a regional flow-up program has your seniority and can bump you out of your comfy chair. Maybe then you'll wake up.

Incidentally, I love this letter:

An Open Letter to the MEC and the Negotiating Committee

Gentlemen:

In my forty-six years, all I've wanted to do was to fly airplanes. I am a graduate of the United States Air Force Academy, husband, and father of a beautiful daughter currently attending Harvard. A year ago, life was good. Now I am faced with a third reduction in pay, benefits, and work rule. As much as I love flying and this airline, I may be forced to leave and find ground-based employment. By the way, I've met my replacement: He's twenty-two and has never set foot on a college campus. Good luck with him.

I don't doubt the difficult job you faced, nor your stated willingness to work together to benefit the group as a whole. Yet you cannot hide the fact that you failed in the attempt: Our pay will again drop (deadhead, training, premiums, etc. ad infinitum), and our quality of life has dropped even more.

Unnecessarily.

I'm not On Sale at 40% Off anymore. I'm also not afraid of their threats of liquidation or loss of our pensions. If getting out of bankruptcy was a level, corporate-wide sacrifice (President to the Janitor), I would have no problem with these draconian cuts. If all had shared the pain, I would have believed that there was an imminent crisis for survival at hand. But there's none--at least one that's not self-induced. Management's inflation-adjusted 2% pay cut is an insult to you and me.

Moreover, I now see schedules that don't match when business travellers want to fly. I see the artificially-low ticket prices (sometimes $150 less than JetBlue--obviously they are not the competition). I see accelerated aircraft deliveries. I see purchases of Super Tugs. Of course, there's also the now-famous FedExing of reflective vests to every ramper's home. Big and small, these are not the actions of a company trying to emerge from bankruptcy quickly. It's all about their sensing a Perfect Storm for breaking our unions, and they are well on their way. A recent Wall Street Journal article spelled-out exactly how it's done under Chapter 11. They have underreported earnings (revealed under oath last month), lied about their intent to go into bankruptcy, then lied about their intent to preserve our contract. When is ALPA going to wake up and understand what's happening to us?

I wanted to confirm a rumor that some FAMs were making over $100,000. So I talked to a FAM today and asked if would share his compensation profile with me. He said it's $80,000, including his variable housing allowance and a law-enforcement override--but everybody gets that. His time of service: Three years.

I have ten years of service and I'm at the controls. He's guarding my six. Believe me, I don't object to his pay rates, but I cannot agree that his skill sets, level of training, and overall responsibility are commensurate with mine. By the way, he said he'll be able to do $100,000 with a little overtime each week in a couple of years. Good for him.

Did you know there is not a single Airbus Captain at our airline who earns the same pay as an Air Traffic Controller with the same years of service? Again, they are highly trained and have a tough job, but how did we allow this to happen? As negotiators, you must have heard the phrase, "It's not what your worth, it's what you negotiate." We are now the lowest-paid and highest-worked pilots in the industry. Now you just agreed to more cuts. All I can muster is, "I don't think so...."

Personally, they have cut my pay to the point already where if I stayed I would most likely have to sell my house in order to keep my daughter at Harvard, and that is an insult to our once-proud profession.

You think you have a leash around NewCo? Think again. The slippery-slope is now here. When did this NOT become a strikeable issue. Have you forgotten the Texas Air contract provisions? We should have said, "One company, one pilot group, period." I talked to a check airman at one of our regionals a few days ago. He said they have not hired a college graduate in over two years due to the low pay and no hope for advancement. Be warned--we have not hit bottom. These kids with their GEDs want our jobs, and we have now initiated the process. Ask any ex-Eastern pilot what it's like to watch assets move and jobs disappear. We need to put our collective foot down.

Last month, 92% of us voted that we were willing to risk losing our jobs completely in order to stand up to the company's attempts to dissolve the union and outsource our jobs. Did our resolve get lost on you during these negotiations? It's a staggaring value: You cannot find 92% of a group to agree that the sun rises in the East. Yet, for the third time, we've lost. If I'm still here when the ratification vote occurs, I'm voting no. It's only one vote, but it's my vote.

As much as I enjoy working for this company, I must now face the facts that I will never be financially secure here. Unless we vote down this regressive TA, I may have no choice but to find ground-based work elsewhere. I was an Academy grad, but I was also a full-time flight instructor, and later a corporate and commuter pilot. I look back and think about the sacrifices I made to get here: The concerts, birthdays, and holidays that I missed--all at poverty-level wages--just to land my dream job here. Regrettably, my dream job appears to be gone, suaded by fear and intimidation from across the table. I don't want a strike any more than you do, but we cannot accept this TA. Voting it down will result in one of two scenarios: The contract is nulled and we strike, or we are sent back to the table to renegotiate an agreement, only this time emboldened by our collective resolve.

Let the pilots take the first step and have a fair chance at turning down this TA. I strongly request that you send this agreement out for our ratification WITHOUT a recommendation of "in favor." Let the rank and file vote without being lemmings. Just see what happens.

I'm truly not angry, just profoundly disappointed. I know you have worked hard over the past several months, but unfortunately the results do not show success on any level. Bereft of any other reason, perhaps you became subject to the Stockholm Syndrome during the protracted meetings and are now more trusting of the company's stated objectives versus their actions. Whether it's an onerous strike or court-ordered follow-on negotiations, anything would be better than ratifying this Tentative Agreement.

Sincerely,

Tom Sylvester

 

[JohnDoe]

I think most people here can see that occam's reason for voting yes on the ta can be summed up in two of his responses:

quote:
"The senior pukes (like me, a top-half captain) will be ok."

and:

quote:
"I will vote for the T/A because I think it is in my best long-term interest to do so."

 

[Occam's Razor]

Different ball game this time in 2006.

Ya think?

You still don't see what is coming do you?

Is that a question, or a taunt? I'm a pilot. I'm a professional "see what's coming" guy. If you can tell me what is coming at NWA (or anywhere else in our industry), with certainty, I'll call Madam Cleo and tell her she's out of a job.

Personally, I don't think the description long term is synonymous with Northwest Airlines.

Personally, I do.

No comments reference your council 20 rep. recommendation?

He favors a smaller pay cut with the resultant increase in furloughs. I favor the larger paycut to preserve the jobs of our junior pilots. He opposed our 10% pay increase in 2003. I voted for it. He opposed the Interim Agreement. I voted for it.

Based on the results of the ratification votes, my view has been more in-line with the opinion of the NWA pilot group than his.

 

[Occam's Razor]

I think most people here can see that occam's reason for voting yes on the ta can be summed up in two of his responses:

quote:
"The senior pukes (like me, a top-half captain) will be ok."

and:

quote:
"I will vote for the T/A because I think it is in my best long-term interest to do so."

Ouch! I've been slimed!

If you're going to use my own words against me, please get them right. Here is the quote, in full context:

"Work rules: The work rules were adjusted in our favor (trip rigs, avg day, DH credit) to reduce/eliminate furloughs. It was done by keeping the pay cut at 23.9%. Smart move. Taking care of the junior pilots should be "job one". The senior pukes (like me, a top-half captain) will be ok."

Let me know if there's anything that jumps out at you.

Of course I vote in my best interests. Don't you? I happen to think reducing furloughs and taking care of the junior pilots on my seniorty list is in my best interests.

Let me know if you disagree.

 

[Freight Dog]

Occam, what is your absolute lowest acceptable pay to captain your jet?

Would you do it for 60k? 70k? 30k? 100k? What is it? What I'm asking for is when is enough enough?

I read that letter from Mr. Sylvester, and I have to say that I agree with him. Why is it that you are willing to tolerate the abusive management who openly will not take concessions themselves, and you keep footing the bill?

They don't want to cut pay in management because they fear they'll "lose talent."

Take a look at that for a minute - lose talent. You don't find this statement insulting?

It's called self-respect and self-worth, Occam. It is sad to see that we as pilots nationwide have lost it...

 

[Boeingman]

Ya think?

You don’t see to think so. But as I said before I don’t care. Your airline, your contract your life. But your written words tell me that you are not really going to understand the further consequences of what a ta ratification will mean. On so many different levels far and above just what is written on papaer.

Is that a question, or a taunt? I'm a pilot. I'm a professional "see what's coming" guy. If you can tell me what is coming at NWA (or anywhere else in our industry), with certainty, I'll call Madam Cleo and tell her she's out of a job.

I’ll take your response a taunt then which was not what I inteneded. One only has to look at history, the financials and the makeup of your management team and their mentor to understand what is in store for you.
And no, I don’t think you have a clue as to what is in store for you. Incidently, at what point does the professional in you say enough?

Personally, I do.

I have a bridge for sale. Are you interested? Now that was a taunt.
Well I wish you the best, but from the outside looking in, I think history will prove that Steenland will make Lorenzo look like a Saint by the time this is all over with.

He favors a smaller pay cut with the resultant increase in furloughs. I favor the larger paycut to preserve the jobs of our junior pilots. He opposed our 10% pay increase in 2003. I voted for it. He opposed the Interim Agreement. I voted for it.

Based on the results of the ratification votes, my view has been more in-line with the opinion of the NWA pilot group than his.

Preserve jobs? On a separate certificate? OK then.......at face value sure but how long will that last?

 

[Occam's Razor]

The reason that this job is where it is right now is because too many pilots just like Occam are at all the airlines.

I'll take that as a compliment. I like my job. I'm sorry if you don't like yours. I wish you happiness.

Keep your powder dry he says, what is worth fighting for in your book Occam?

Truth, Justice, and the American Way?

We really are going right back to the 1930's aren't we.

If so I'm gonna bag Jean Harlow! And I'm gonna take my Callaway 460Ti and kick butt on the PGA tour!

Do you know when ALPA was formed Occam?

Unofficially, ALPA was established by a pilot in my council in 1930. The organizational structure was official established and ratified on July 27, 1931. The Pilot Division was separated from the Stewardess Division in 1960.

(What do I win?)

Do you know anything about the history of this profession?

Only what I've read and experienced.

Do you know about the battles that have been fought so that you have been able to enjoy the career you have?

I remember taking some unpopular concessions in 1993 that actually turned a profit for the pilots that sold their stock when the price doubled. I remember going on strike in 1998 to end the B-Scale and strengthen our contract. I remember pilots at UAL and DAL signing killer contracts in 2000 and 2001, respectively, and not reading many complaints about them. I remember the pilots at Comair going in strike in 2001, and the rest of us supporting them with assessments. I remember Bush telling us he wouldn't rest until bin Laden was brought to justice...and then going on vacation. I remember my mother-in-law's birthday (every year!), which tends to keep my wife happy, which in-turn tends to increase my sexual activity.

Were there more "battles" than those?

I know, it's market forces, it's the LCC's, it's everybodies fault but yours isn't it. Think again and look in the mirror.

Dang! You ratted me out!

I confess...it's all my fault. I planned the 9/11 attacks, ratified cabotage, raised fuel prices, developed SARS, gave Bush faulty intel on WMD's, financed the LCC's, hired the Marketing idiots at all the majors, insisted on foreign ownership changes, invented the RJ, and used Jedi mind-control to force the pilots at UAL, DAL, AAA, AMR, etc to take massive pay cuts ahead of me instead of "holding the line".

I assure you, however, that I had nothing to do with the Designated Hitter, Jerry Springer, or Anna Nicole's reality show.

Pinky Swear!

The legacies are paying this price because for all those years, the legacy pilots have let ALPA keep giving it away and letting the sand wash out a little more each year. The sand is market share, and feed.

[/quote]

Hey! You said it was MY fault! Leave the pilots at the other airlines out of this.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Occam, what is your absolute lowest acceptable pay to captain your jet?

Not as low as those guys at UAL! I didn't come to this job to make $1,500 a month...but that's what they paid me in my first year. I knew that my pay would go up, and go down, depending on the health of the industry. My goal was to keep the trend going up in the long term, and do what I could to enhance the profession when I had the leverage. I went on strike in 1998 because I had the leverage and wanted a better contract.

Would you do it for 60k? 70k? 30k? 100k? What is it? What I'm asking for is when is enough enough?

I think it's like obscenity. I can't describe it...but I know it when I see it.

How about this: I liked it when pay rates were going up (UAL in 2000, DAL in 2001, NWA in 2003), and I don't like it when they go down. Despite the fluctuations, I still manage to enjoy my job without blaming my fellow pilots for the concessions they've made to preserve the job they seem to enjoy too.

I read that letter from Mr. Sylvester, and I have to say that I agree with him. Why is it that you are willing to tolerate the abusive management who openly will not take concessions themselves, and you keep footing the bill?

I happen to know Tom personally, and I know that he was unaware of several key details of the T/A when he wrote the letter.

They don't want to cut pay in management because they fear they'll "lose talent."

Take a look at that for a minute - lose talent. You don't find this statement insulting?

Sure. I also find it insulting to Flight Attendants and Baggage Handlers when pilots imply that those careers are unworthy of lucrative compensation because they are "unskilled". We consider ourselves "worth more" than F/A's or Baggage Handlers, yet resent it when Executives pay themselves more than us. I try to avoid that hypocrisy. Since the compensation of our executives is a lot less than the geniuses at other airlines, I'm not too concerned right now. Perhaps a UAL pilot will post an attack on me for their contract in light of Tilton's compensation package?

It's called self-respect and self-worth, Occam. It is sad to see that we as pilots nationwide have lost it...

Wait a minute! I thought it was just me? Are you suggesting that my view might not be out of the mainstream?

 

[81Horse]

If so I'm gonna bag Jean Harlow! And I'm gonna take my Callaway 460Ti and kick butt on the PGA tour!

Set the dial before 1937, Razor -- if you're aiming for Harlow.

The PGA Championship Purse for 1936 (Hershey Country Club, PA) will be $9200. I don't know how the purse will be split, still -- not bad, for the depths of the Depression.

Also, smoking will be good for you, and it will be considered good sport to get drunk and drive.

I think I'm going back to the '30s, too.

 

[Hvy]

You sir, do not know me.

Nor would I care to. I have better things to do with my time.