NWA Straw Poll on TA

[Boeingman]

Ya think?

You don’t see to think so. But as I said before I don’t care. Your airline, your contract your life. But your written words tell me that you are not really going to understand the further consequences of what a ta ratification will mean. On so many different levels far and above just what is written on papaer.

Is that a question, or a taunt? I'm a pilot. I'm a professional "see what's coming" guy. If you can tell me what is coming at NWA (or anywhere else in our industry), with certainty, I'll call Madam Cleo and tell her she's out of a job.

I’ll take your response a taunt then which was not what I inteneded. One only has to look at history, the financials and the makeup of your management team and their mentor to understand what is in store for you.
And no, I don’t think you have a clue as to what is in store for you. Incidently, at what point does the professional in you say enough?

Personally, I do.

I have a bridge for sale. Are you interested? Now that was a taunt.
Well I wish you the best, but from the outside looking in, I think history will prove that Steenland will make Lorenzo look like a Saint by the time this is all over with.

He favors a smaller pay cut with the resultant increase in furloughs. I favor the larger paycut to preserve the jobs of our junior pilots. He opposed our 10% pay increase in 2003. I voted for it. He opposed the Interim Agreement. I voted for it.

Based on the results of the ratification votes, my view has been more in-line with the opinion of the NWA pilot group than his.

Preserve jobs? On a separate certificate? OK then.......at face value sure but how long will that last?

 

[Occam's Razor]

The reason that this job is where it is right now is because too many pilots just like Occam are at all the airlines.

I'll take that as a compliment. I like my job. I'm sorry if you don't like yours. I wish you happiness.

Keep your powder dry he says, what is worth fighting for in your book Occam?

Truth, Justice, and the American Way?

We really are going right back to the 1930's aren't we.

If so I'm gonna bag Jean Harlow! And I'm gonna take my Callaway 460Ti and kick butt on the PGA tour!

Do you know when ALPA was formed Occam?

Unofficially, ALPA was established by a pilot in my council in 1930. The organizational structure was official established and ratified on July 27, 1931. The Pilot Division was separated from the Stewardess Division in 1960.

(What do I win?)

Do you know anything about the history of this profession?

Only what I've read and experienced.

Do you know about the battles that have been fought so that you have been able to enjoy the career you have?

I remember taking some unpopular concessions in 1993 that actually turned a profit for the pilots that sold their stock when the price doubled. I remember going on strike in 1998 to end the B-Scale and strengthen our contract. I remember pilots at UAL and DAL signing killer contracts in 2000 and 2001, respectively, and not reading many complaints about them. I remember the pilots at Comair going in strike in 2001, and the rest of us supporting them with assessments. I remember Bush telling us he wouldn't rest until bin Laden was brought to justice...and then going on vacation. I remember my mother-in-law's birthday (every year!), which tends to keep my wife happy, which in-turn tends to increase my sexual activity.

Were there more "battles" than those?

I know, it's market forces, it's the LCC's, it's everybodies fault but yours isn't it. Think again and look in the mirror.

Dang! You ratted me out!

I confess...it's all my fault. I planned the 9/11 attacks, ratified cabotage, raised fuel prices, developed SARS, gave Bush faulty intel on WMD's, financed the LCC's, hired the Marketing idiots at all the majors, insisted on foreign ownership changes, invented the RJ, and used Jedi mind-control to force the pilots at UAL, DAL, AAA, AMR, etc to take massive pay cuts ahead of me instead of "holding the line".

I assure you, however, that I had nothing to do with the Designated Hitter, Jerry Springer, or Anna Nicole's reality show.

Pinky Swear!

The legacies are paying this price because for all those years, the legacy pilots have let ALPA keep giving it away and letting the sand wash out a little more each year. The sand is market share, and feed.

[/quote]

Hey! You said it was MY fault! Leave the pilots at the other airlines out of this.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Occam, what is your absolute lowest acceptable pay to captain your jet?

Not as low as those guys at UAL! I didn't come to this job to make $1,500 a month...but that's what they paid me in my first year. I knew that my pay would go up, and go down, depending on the health of the industry. My goal was to keep the trend going up in the long term, and do what I could to enhance the profession when I had the leverage. I went on strike in 1998 because I had the leverage and wanted a better contract.

Would you do it for 60k? 70k? 30k? 100k? What is it? What I'm asking for is when is enough enough?

I think it's like obscenity. I can't describe it...but I know it when I see it.

How about this: I liked it when pay rates were going up (UAL in 2000, DAL in 2001, NWA in 2003), and I don't like it when they go down. Despite the fluctuations, I still manage to enjoy my job without blaming my fellow pilots for the concessions they've made to preserve the job they seem to enjoy too.

I read that letter from Mr. Sylvester, and I have to say that I agree with him. Why is it that you are willing to tolerate the abusive management who openly will not take concessions themselves, and you keep footing the bill?

I happen to know Tom personally, and I know that he was unaware of several key details of the T/A when he wrote the letter.

They don't want to cut pay in management because they fear they'll "lose talent."

Take a look at that for a minute - lose talent. You don't find this statement insulting?

Sure. I also find it insulting to Flight Attendants and Baggage Handlers when pilots imply that those careers are unworthy of lucrative compensation because they are "unskilled". We consider ourselves "worth more" than F/A's or Baggage Handlers, yet resent it when Executives pay themselves more than us. I try to avoid that hypocrisy. Since the compensation of our executives is a lot less than the geniuses at other airlines, I'm not too concerned right now. Perhaps a UAL pilot will post an attack on me for their contract in light of Tilton's compensation package?

It's called self-respect and self-worth, Occam. It is sad to see that we as pilots nationwide have lost it...

Wait a minute! I thought it was just me? Are you suggesting that my view might not be out of the mainstream?

 

[81Horse]

If so I'm gonna bag Jean Harlow! And I'm gonna take my Callaway 460Ti and kick butt on the PGA tour!

Set the dial before 1937, Razor -- if you're aiming for Harlow.

The PGA Championship Purse for 1936 (Hershey Country Club, PA) will be $9200. I don't know how the purse will be split, still -- not bad, for the depths of the Depression.

Also, smoking will be good for you, and it will be considered good sport to get drunk and drive.

I think I'm going back to the '30s, too.

 

[Hvy]

You sir, do not know me.

Nor would I care to. I have better things to do with my time.

 

[FlyingFarmer]

Amusing responses to my ravings Occam, perhaps you're not a complete trd to fly a multi day trip with, but your words, however humorous, still give away what a lazy, frightened, self centered pig you have become. This TA most assuredly sells out the bottom half of the list at your airline. You spoke of a time when you were willing to fight and how you were even involved
in that fight, why not now? Until you say enough, they will just keep on lowering ticket prices and coming back for more. Meanwhile, allowing further fragmentation of your flying only serves to further weaken any future bargaining position. Your idea of a mid course contractual correction, also referred to as, ho ho, we'll get'em next time, will never come. Increased fragmentation brings with it ease of replacement and further outsourcing. One more thing, my job satisfaction has nothing to do with this issue, and your inability to respond with any salient points denying my character assassinations tells me that my analysis of you is dead on and that you could care less. While I'm sure you're quite in love with what you see when you shave and urinate in the morning let me assure you, you're words paint a disfigured and ugly picture of your soul and it's consideration for others. I wish the pilots of NWA good luck, with "men" like this in your ranks, you will get exactly what you deserve.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Set the dial before 1937, Razor -- if you're aiming for Harlow.

The PGA Championship Purse for 1936 (Hershey Country Club, PA) will be $9200. I don't know how the purse will be split, still -- not bad, for the depths of the Depression.

Also, smoking will be good for you, and it will be considered good sport to get drunk and drive.

I think I'm going back to the '30s, too.

Your points are well-taken! I was responding to a reference to "the 1930's".

I think I got the decade right. Since ALPA was established 1930-31, I'm right in the Harlow Zone. (Hubba Hubba!)

Some more goodies:

1. The logic of segregation.
2. No Air Force.
3. The man in the White House had non-functioning legs and a strong brain...instead of the other way around (as it is today).
4. Ronald Reagan was a Democrat.
5. Women weren't allowed to be airline pilots.
6. Lindbergh liked the Nazis.

 

[JohnDoe]

Yes, occam, I would potentially vote for the ta based on how it affects me personally.

However, you seem to be criticizing others for voting no; or that are challenging the TA; on your assertion that the ta is good for, or protects all NWA pilots......It is not good for all NW pilots.......

You say sjet will not result in additional furloughs. That is a very blind and wishfull-thinking statemet. But one that I would expect from someone that is a "senior puke that will be ok." They are starting yet another certificate to outsource more flying to for crying out loud. And what happens when that certificate is sold.......hmmm. You actually think that 70 seaters at sjet are not going to replace some 9 flying, that it is in "addition" to mainline???? Allowing the comany to outsouce more flying to yet another certificate, especially one that can be sold after what, 5 aircraft or something ridiculous like that, is a bad idea.

You say that in this TA "The work rules were adjusted in our favor." You left out the monthly maximums. For 12 months after the signing, they are 75-88 with the ability to flex to 90 hours (which, if I'm not mistaken, is 2 more hours than currently allowed for). After 12 months, they are 80-88 with flex to 90. What do you think is going to happen 12-plus months after this TA is signed? The monthly maximums are going to increase right around the time that sjet flying is starting to come to fruition. More furloughs. Higher monthly max's equals less pilots needed.

You also left out the reduced vacation accruals. Less vacation time equals less pilots needed to cover said vacation.

You say this ta is ok for even the lower half. Well, you aren't:
-going to be subject to furlough from sjet, increased monthy max., etc. etc.
-going to be one of those furloughs looking at the potential to have to go to sjet, under those payrates or workrules.
-going to have to fly aircraft under the 76-110 catagory with their reduced pay and workrules. The 9 and some airbus guys probably will. Still is only a 23.9% paycut you say?? That is a nice spin to put on it. You need to look at the fact that the payrates for the 76-110 seat aircraft, which are going to replace 9 flying, are paid even less than the 9 flying now with the paycut.

I have no problem with you voting on this ta based on how it will affect you personally. But don't come on here saying this ta will benefit all/ not have a negative effect, or "taking care of the junior pilot's should be job one," because that is not the case.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

If the age 60 rule doesn't change over the next few months, by the time Sjet starts recieving aircraft there should be no furloughs. Management projected 150-200 additional, however, there should be enough pilots leaving to negate that number. In my opinion, we should start seeing mainline recalls as early as 2007. Hiring should start taking place around 2009/2010. This based on the fact that nothing else major happens. If the Age 60 rule changes to 65, expect 500+ fuloughs and hiring in 2015-2020.

 

[135Drvr]

I'm trying to determine, through an admittedly unscientific process, what the outcome of the coming Member Ratification vote might be at NWA.

Much like 71kilo's straw poll on age 60, how about a poll of the NWA pilots on this board on how they will vote? Including information on seat position, age, and book color might be instructive also. Many will say one thing in the crew room and vote quite differently when the time comes. No need for long dissertations on why. As Joe Friday says "Just the facts."

I'm sure many from other carriers will want to chime in but there is already another thread covering what should happen. I'm hoping this poll might indicate what will happen.

Gentleman, gentlemen, gentlemen,

As entertaining as all this philosophizing and Flame throwing is ( and Yes, I plead guilty as well) may I try to re-direct us back to the purpose of the original thread.

This is a forum for NWA pilots to take a straw poll on the up coming TA. Soooo, if you are not casting a vote or if you don’t have a dog in the fight, please pay attention to the following announcement (which is delivered in good humor at the risk of being flamed to death):

Ladies and Gentlemen: On behalf of all of us here at Northwest Airlines we’d like to thank you for joining this thread. We realize that you have many threads to choose from and appreciate your chiming in on this one. We’ll give you an update on the outcome as we get a little bit closer. In the mean time, we invite you to sit back,…..Relax,….. and enjoy a nice big cup of ……SHUT THE F*CK UP.

In case anyone cares, from what I’ve been able to glean from the last 6 pages, the count stands at 4-NO, 2-YES, and 1- Undecided.

Thank you for your support.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Amusing responses to my ravings Occam, perhaps you're not a complete trd to fly a multi day trip with, but your words, however humorous, still give away what a lazy, frightened, self centered pig you have become.

Ha! You're wrong! I'd didn't just become a self-centered pig. Ask my wife!

But it is good to have you on the Forum, Mother Theresa! Sorry I missed you working at the soup kitchen.

This TA most assuredly sells out the bottom half of the list at your airline.

Based on your extensive working knowledge of our staffing methodology?

You spoke of a time when you were willing to fight and how you were even involved in that fight, why not now?

Because my calendar indicates it's "2006" and not "1998". My company and the industry aren't profitable the way they were back then. I try to match my methods to the circumstances. Let me know if you disagree with that concept.

Until you say enough, they will just keep on lowering ticket prices and coming back for more.

Perhaps. Did YOUR airline recently raise ticket prices? If not, what did YOU do about it?

Meanwhile, allowing further fragmentation of your flying only serves to further weaken any future bargaining position.

The T/A changes the definition of "my flying". Do you understand that? The T/A is reapportioning (not the Tom DeLay kind...the airline kind) that flying.

Your idea of a mid course contractual correction, also referred to as, ho ho, we'll get'em next time, will never come.

"Never" is a long time. Since the corrections have occured following concessionary contracts here, I'm going to disagree with your conclusion, and cite the history of NWA as evidence.

One more thing, my job satisfaction has nothing to do with this issue, and your inability to respond with any salient points denying my character assassinations tells me that my analysis of you is dead on and that you could care less.

I'm sorry I ignored your character assassinations of me. I'll try to do better next time!

THIS IS A TEST: Am not! Oh huh! Sez YOU!

(How'd I do?)

While I'm sure you're quite in love with what you see when you shave and urinate in the morning let me assure you, you're words paint a disfigured and ugly picture of your soul and it's consideration for others.

Wow! You're good. Let's see if you can guess which finger I'm holding up to the monitor right now.

For what it's worth, my Inner Child took my soul out for a road trip, and hasn't called in...like...a month!

I wish the pilots of NWA good luck, with "men" like this in your ranks, you will get exactly what you deserve.

Correction. Airline pilots NEVER get what they "deserve"! Ever! They get what they can negotiate.

Until you learn to understand that, we have very little to discuss.

 

[FlyingFarmer]

Correction. Airline pilots NEVER get what they "deserve"! Ever! They get what they can negotiate

-on this we agree. Now as much as I truly enjoy showing everyone on this board just how smart your wife is, yet what an amazingly poor judge of character she is as well. I think at this point I'll just sit back, relax, and enjoy a warm cup of s.t.f.u.

 

[81Horse]

... Since ALPA was established 1930-31, I'm right in the Harlow Zone. (Hubba Hubba!) ...

The Carol Lombard Zone, too. You know, since we're dreamin'.

http://www.teachersparadise.com/ency/en/media/2/28/carollombard.jpg

 

[Occam's Razor]

Now as much as I truly enjoy showing everyone on this board just how smart your wife is, yet what an amazingly poor judge of character she is as well. I think at this point I'll just sit back, relax, and enjoy a warm cup of s.t.f.u.

"s.t.f.u."?

Stupid Things 'Farmer Uploads?

(What'd I win?)

 

[Lear70]

"s.t.f.u."?

Stupid Things 'Farmer Uploads?

(What'd I win?)

Nothing yet, but you move up to the semi-finals in the "biggest self-serving poser on Flightinfo" contest.

Grand prize: confirmation of your status as an idiot for LIFE.

Runners up receive confirmation of idiot status for at least a year (or until everyone forgets what an a*s they were in this thread).

I'm an honorary finalist, I've stayed at Pinnacle for almost 5 years...