NWA Straw Poll on TA

[YourPilotFriend]

The pension plan being terminated probably will not happen if the TA passes. If anything NWA will go into a second bankruptcy down the road if it becomes a problem.

 

[Dizel8]

The pension plan being terminated probably will not happen if the TA passes. If anything NWA will go into a second bankruptcy down the road if it becomes a problem.

I think it will, I think the pension is the carrot, and that the company will hold out on cancelling it until the T/A is signed. Once that is accomplished, the pension will soon be a goner, one way or another.

I don't work for NWA, but I think the pilots need to factor into this T/A that the pension is gone as well.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

The problem I have with that statement is NWA has reached its target cost savings from the pilots with the TA. Anymore over-reaching would be a slap in the face to the judge and he will not approve it. United and USairways pension termination was part of their restructuring plans. NWA terminating the pilot pension plan is not part of restructuring.

 

[Freight Dog]

The pension plan being terminated probably will not happen if the TA passes. If anything NWA will go into a second bankruptcy down the road if it becomes a problem.

The pension plan will be out so fast you won't even know what hit you. They'll come to you for another relief, and if you won't play along, here comes another 1113(c).

Every 'bankrupt' airline is (ab)using the bankruptcy protection to shed this "liability."

Right out of the playbook...

 

[Hvy]

My place of employment DID put me in the same position - chapter 11, threats of furloughs/liquidation, we also had the same gun pointed at our head - 1113(c) motion to dismiss our contract:

Aloha Airlines - December 30, 2004 to February 17, 2006.

My perspective remained the same from 9/11 to present day - take your concessions package and shove it where the sun don't shine. You can keep your shiny jet too.

You're such a tough guy....but "my concessions" still leave me above you in more ways than one.

 

[Dizel8]

The problem I have with that statement is NWA has reached its target cost savings from the pilots with the TA. Anymore over-reaching would be a slap in the face to the judge and he will not approve it. United and USairways pension termination was part of their restructuring plans. NWA terminating the pilot pension plan is not part of restructuring.

Not sure the judge will have much say in the matter when it happens, one because NWA management is about as ruthless as a shark smelling blood and two, the judge does not want to be the one that shuts the airline down.

Management WILL find a way to get rid of the pension, the only reason I can see they have not done it already is like I already mentioned, the carrot approach. Can NWA ALPA get a guarantee that the pension isn't next, I sincerely doubt it! The U pilots tried the very same approach, paycuts to save pension, and yet in the end, pension went puff, DAL appears to be going in the same direction rather swiftly, so you know NWA management must be thinking the very same thought and they don't want to be last man out!

If the pension survives, great, but if I were at NWA, I would, as I said, view this T/A in the light that the pension, as it was, is gone.

 

[Freight Dog]

You're such a tough guy....but "my concessions" still leave me above you in more ways than one.

I wasn't referring to you, but a message to the management.

Lighten up, Francis.

 

[Hvy]

I wasn't referring to you, but a message to the management.

Lighten up, Francis.

You did...and I apologize. Sorry.

 

[81Horse]

The pension plan being terminated probably will not happen if the TA passes. If anything NWA will go into a second bankruptcy down the road if it becomes a problem.

A second bankruptcy? I think those days are over, with the recent changes in BK law.

So I'm thinking: if the company had been willing to guarantee the security of the frozen pension plan, then that would be in the TA. Such a guarantee would probably have assured (barely) the ratification of the TA, ugly as it is. Without that assurance, the TA is a tough sell -- even to the most senior pilots.

 

[Lear70]

6 years ago places like UAL, Delta, NWA and American were the dream jobs that many hoped for.

Yes, they were.

Those that were unable to achieve a position there are obviously envious and relishing at the hardships of those that were able to make it there. I would hope that I wouldn't be so bitter.

No, I'm not, you egotistical a*s.

I didn't pass my United interview back in 2000. In retrospect, I am in a MUCH better position, having not had to go through a furlough during the worst hiring prospects EVER in the history of aviation, having had a job that pays the bills during this entire time, and now having an interview scheduled with a stable carrier that tops out above $200,000 a year after 15 years and an EXCELLENT retirement plan that they can't rob by law.

So no, most of us are THANKFUL, not bitter, that we didn't get hired on there. If you are one of the top 10% that are still making high six-figures and long international overnights, then congrats. But pull your head out of your a*s long enough to realize that YOU ARE IN THE MINORITY AT YOUR OWN AIRLINE, and indeed at ANY major airline.

We're also not "relishing" the hardships ANYONE is facing; quite the opposite, we're feeling the pinch along with everyone else and HOPING and PRAYING that this POS gets voted down and a REAL T.A. can be negotiated while the airline is shut down, because that's what it's going to take.

People like you are one of the main reasons this industry keeps spiraling down. "MY quality of life won't be affected, so I'm voting yes."

 

[Hvy]

Yes, they were.


No, I'm not, you egotistical a*s.

I didn't pass my United interview back in 2000. In retrospect, I am in a MUCH better position, having not had to go through a furlough during the worst hiring prospects EVER in the history of aviation, having had a job that pays the bills during this entire time, and now having an interview scheduled with a stable carrier that tops out above $200,000 a year after 15 years and an EXCELLENT retirement plan that they can't rob by law.

So no, most of us are THANKFUL, not bitter, that we didn't get hired on there. If you are one of the top 10% that are still making high six-figures and long international overnights, then congrats. But pull your head out of your a*s long enough to realize that YOU ARE IN THE MINORITY AT YOUR OWN AIRLINE, and indeed at ANY major airline.

We're also not "relishing" the hardships ANYONE is facing; quite the opposite, we're feeling the pinch along with everyone else and HOPING and PRAYING that this POS gets voted down and a REAL T.A. can be negotiated while the airline is shut down, because that's what it's going to take.

People like you are one of the main reasons this industry keeps spiraling down. "MY quality of life won't be affected, so I'm voting yes."

You sound bitter to me. The interviewer read you well.

 

[135Drvr]

Unhappy, aren't you? Bitterness eating you up? Poor baby. Critisize all you want. My job isn't what it used to be but I'm able to cope and I'm looking forward to what the future holds. Enjoy the time you have left.

HVY, Please listen to what I’m trying to say. I see you have a high opinion of yourself and are happy in your job. Great, I’m truly glad for you. But PLEASE TRY to imagine if UAL told you to trade-in your Heavy for an RJ, and instead of HNL you’d be doing short overnights in LAN at 1/3 of your pay. I think YOUR job satisfaction might be down where mine is right now. You must remember that a little over a year ago your fate was uncertain too. By the way the "aurgument clinic" is on Monty Python.

To the rest of you reading this, I apologize for the personal banter. Back to the NWA discussion:

I think, unfortunately, that the TA WILL pass. I represent the ¼ of the pilots at NWA who will be furloughed. While it’s an easy decision for me to vote NO, I know it’ll be harder for the other 3/4s. Vote YES and keep your job or vote NO and roll the dice.

I think it’s only human nature, and more so Pilot nature, to want to hold on to the dream flying like HVY’s doing -- if you can.

Sadly, there will always be those of us who will order the sh*t sandwich for everybody, as long as they get the most bread.

Is it time to fall on our swords and make a stand so the industry will improve for everyone or play along and HOPE it gets better? Guess we’ll each decide for ourselves.

 

[Lear70]

You sound bitter to me. The interviewer read you well.

And you sound like a condescending pr*ck to me (and everyone else here). Too bad you slipped through the cracks of the hiring system.

Incidentally, I was a 29 year old 727 Captain when I interviewed at United; "bitter" was not a word used to describe me at that point, more like "on top of the world and loving life".

Nice try though, now dust off your cranium and come up with a useful, non-flame, cerebral response; if you can.

 

[Hvy]

HVY, Please listen to what I’m trying to say. I see you have a high opinion of yourself and are happy in your job. Great, I’m truly glad for you. But PLEASE TRY to imagine if UAL told you to trade-in your Heavy for an RJ, and instead of HNL you’d be doing short overnights in LAN at 1/3 of your pay. I think YOUR job satisfaction might be down where mine is right now. You must remember that a little over a year ago your fate was uncertain too. By the way the "aurgument clinic" is on Monty Python.

To the rest of you reading this, I apologize for the personal banter. Back to the NWA discussion:

I think, unfortunately, that the TA WILL pass. I represent the ¼ of the pilots at NWA who will be furloughed. While it’s an easy decision for me to vote NO, I know it’ll be harder for the other 3/4s. Vote YES and keep your job or vote NO and roll the dice.

I think it’s only human nature, and more so Pilot nature, to want to hold on to the dream flying like HVY’s doing -- if you can.

Sadly, there will always be those of us who will order the sh*t sandwich for everybody, as long as they get the most bread.

Is it time to fall on our swords and make a stand so the industry will improve for everyone or play along and HOPE it gets better? Guess we’ll each decide for ourselves.

I'm not telling ANYONE what to do with the T/A. It's not MY T/A...it's not MY company. I don't have a bone in the fight. The only people I have addressed is those that have critisized UAL and are now critisizing NWA pilots for "not making a stand" for "the good of the profession" when they work for neither!

If you work at NWA and want to vote for or against the T/A it's really none of my business (nor anyone elses for that matter). It's YOUR company...you do what your heart tells you.

What I address is those that come on this forum and belittle others for "cheapening the profession" for not making that stand. They are not there...they have opinions...but in fact have no idea what is going on...and won't until they experience it first hand. And I would not wish that on ANYBODY.

I would like to think that pilots in your situtation have a good choice....as you will find out...you really don't. It will be a bad choice that allows you to hopefully keep your job and your way of life to a certain extent. Or you can choose "to make that stand" and shut the airline down. Again, your choice. Not mine. The pilots don't call the shots in a bankruptcy. You know who calls the shots in the end....those willing to bankroll your exit with their money. They will set the bar and you will follow their demands or your company will not get the money it needs. Harsh but straightforward. At UAL the people with the big bucks that financed our exit determined that in order to do so, we would have to drop our A plan. Pure and simple. We got screwed. You will probably get screwed too. Did we gave a choice? Sure, we could have made a stand and shut the operation down. We choose not to. And I'm glad we didn't. So are all the other people on the property and those hoping to be recalled off furlough soon.

If anyone doesn't like our choice...well...too bad! As you and your pilot group makes their choice I nor anybody else really has a right to question your decisions.

As far as my situation and my "cush" job. I was on the 747-400. Was. After bankruptcy I was surplused off the -400 to the 777 to the 767/757 to the 737. That's right...trained on 3 aircraft in 3 years. Except for the furloughed guys I took about the largest paycut on the property. Over 60%. I flew for 2 long years on the LCO. Working my butt off to do my part to help my airline survive. I am fortunate enough to be back on the 767 and life/pay has gotten better. I'm not back to that "cush" job on the 747 yet (how would those critisizing know whether it's cush or not) but I will be soon.

Good luck to you. Don't let the smucks on this board wishing for your failure goad you into voting a certain way. Their time may well come where they have the opportunity to "make that stand." Then we'll see what they really do.

 

[Hvy]

And you sound like a condescending pr*ck to me (and everyone else here). Too bad you slipped through the cracks of the hiring system.

Incidentally, I was a 29 year old 727 Captain when I interviewed at United; "bitter" was not a word used to describe me at that point, more like "on top of the world and loving life".

Nice try though, now dust off your cranium and come up with a useful, non-flame, cerebral response; if you can.

Yeah? Well, I'm here. And fairly happy. Where are you?

 

[Lear70]

yeah, that response required deep thought. Since you're going to stay on that flame-throwing plane, I'll toss a couple your way that you should be able to understand reasonably well.

Your response was more of the "I have mine, fu*k you." mentality. Nicely done.

Hope your family knows just how much of a sh*tbox you really are. Maybe I should date your daugher, she probably hates you and would enjoy a night on her knees in front of me just to piss you off.

Cheers!

 

[CaptainMark]

hey Lear70..give em hell!!!! good luck on your interview!

 

[Lear70]

Thanks Mark,

Where you been? Haven't seen you online in WEEKS!

 

[Hvy]

yeah, that response required deep thought. Since you're going to stay on that flame-throwing plane, I'll toss a couple your way that you should be able to understand reasonably well.

Your response was more of the "I have mine, fu*k you." mentality. Nicely done.

Hope your family knows just how much of a sh*tbox you really are. Maybe I should date your daugher, she probably hates you and would enjoy a night on her knees in front of me just to piss you off.

Cheers!

Good luck on your interview. You'll need it.

 

[Lear70]

You know, with your experience and age level I would expect better come backs from you. Something with a little more thought, a little more depth, and I could go on for a while stooping to your level, but I think I've had enough.

Just can't handle muck fighting for very long, so...

Thanks for the good interview wishes.

 

[Occam's Razor]

I'm voting yes. No question. It is my company, and I think we need to keep our powder dry.

Some points:

135Driver wrote: "And, if I'm not mistaken, the contribution doesn't start until AFTER they come out of bankruptcy. UAL was there four 4 years!"

He is incorrect. My paystub reflects a 5% contribution into my DC plan on the March 13th paycheck. It has started.

Duration: We've never had a contract last for it's duration that wasn't modified signifcantly mid-term. We got some of our greatest enhancements mid-term (10% pay increase in 2003 while others were moving the other way, and time-and-a-half pay in 1996), and our biggest improvements to Scope. The landscape changes constantly, and this TA gives us a chance to use future changes as leverage. We've done it in past, and it's a bit silly to think we won't be able to do it in the future.

SJet: Will not cause furloughs. It will slow expansion of the 100-seat fleet in the future according to some, but the same logic suggests the 100-seat fleet slows growth of the 125-150 seat fleet. That hasn't been the case in the past, but suddenly is fait accompli in the future? I don't buy it. In any case, that battle was lost when all of our peers swallowed the 70-seaters.

Work rules: The work rules were adjusted in our favor (trip rigs, avg day, DH credit) to reduce/eliminate furloughs. It was done by keeping the pay cut at 23.9%. Smart move. Taking care of the junior pilots should be "job one". The senior pukes (like me, a top-half captain) will be ok.

PERP: (Early Retirement Program) Good! If the pension legislation passes, I think it will be popular with the over-55 group. (Probably more popular than my plan to force all of them, at gunpoint, to clean their raingutters on a rickety step-ladder!)

The "no" voters are always the most vocal. That's normal. Very few pilots raise their voice to shout "Yes!". Keep in mind that 13% of NWA pilots voted "No" to the largest pay increase in the last 30-years...at a time when the other airlines were taking hits. The bottom 10% of the list has a different perspective, and I appreciate it. Those with high-earning spouses have a different perspective too.

< 50, Blue Book

 

[Hvy]

You know, with your experience and age level I would expect better come backs from you. Something with a little more thought, a little more depth, and I could go on for a while stooping to your level, but I think I've had enough.

Just can't handle muck fighting for very long, so...

Thanks for the good interview wishes.

Not trying to fight nor stoop to the level of trashing one's family. I'm much too happy and successful to waste much time on that. Besides, in person I'm sure that your mouth wouldn't be as loose as your fingers are on the computer.

By the way, my daughters are 5 & 10. Still interested in having them on their knees?

 

[Dizel8]

.
SJet: Will not cause furloughs.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I am curious how you figure sjet will not cause furloughs. Are you figuring the low guys on the 9 will slide over to sjet and continue working?

As someone else has said, I am curious why the NWA pilots are willing to give up, what they said was a show stopper, scope and alter ego ops?

 

[YourPilotFriend]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I am curious how you figure sjet will not cause furloughs. Are you figuring the low guys on the 9 will slide over to sjet and continue working?

As someone else has said, I am curious why the NWA pilots are willing to give up, what they said was a show stopper, scope and alter ego ops?

NWA plans to expand the 76 seat market before any changes are made to the mainline fleet. They probably will sell SJet to prevent mainline creep, so it's likely we will see the regionals get 55 aircraft first. Then SJet will probably get 40 airplanes and be sold off. You're looking at the reduced capacity of NWA right now, the only thing left is to shift aircraft around on routes. Some DC-9's to 76ers, some 50 seaters to 76ers, and avro replacement.

 

[Boeingman]

As someone else has said, I am curious why the NWA pilots are willing to give up, what they said was a show stopper, scope and alter ego ops?

Because the negotiating comittee capitulated. I also didn't see the equity stake they demanded either.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Because the negotiating comittee capitulated. I also didn't see the equity stake they demanded either.

You weren't there. The negotiators did what they were told by your reps.

You haven't read the T/A. The equity piece is there.

You don't have to like it or support it...but your opposition should be based on something empirical, and not on something you either don't know, or didn't read.

 

[Occam's Razor]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I am curious how you figure sjet will not cause furloughs. Are you figuring the low guys on the 9 will slide over to sjet and continue working?

Because the DC-9 fleet is still being utilized in numbers that NWA published over 6 years ago. It will be around for the next 5-6 years, so it will require mainline pilots to man it. It will be replaced by other mainline aircraft, as described in the T/A. The T/A doesn't park the fleet. The SJet op is in addition to the mainline.

As someone else has said, I am curious why the NWA pilots are willing to give up, what they said was a show stopper, scope and alter ego ops?

Where did you read that 76-seat jets was a "show stopper"? I don't think I read that anywhere...and I do have a dog in this fight. I read plenty that said moving the DC-9 (and/or 100-seat) flying "offshore" was a strike issue, and that loss of fragmentation and successor language was as well. Our position on all of those issues ended up in the T/A.

 

[Boeingman]

You weren't there. The negotiators did what they were told by your reps.

You haven't read the T/A. The equity piece is there.

You don't have to like it or support it...but your opposition should be based on something empirical, and not on something you either don't know, or didn't read.

The capitulated comment was a direct quote from a good friend of mine who is a 9 Captain. He certainly doesn't share your views, but you are welcome to your opinion. I did get the e-mail he sent from the council 20 rep. Certainly doesn't seem to me like the nc did what the reps wanted...at least that one.

Opposition? Your grasping and as much as you pretend to be, you are not a mind reader. Frankly, I don't care one way or another what you do with your contract.

Either way, Steenland will be back for more after this haircut. You can count on it.

 

[Boeingman]

I read plenty that said moving the DC-9 (and/or 100-seat) flying "offshore" was a strike issue, and that loss of fragmentation and successor language was as well. Our position on all of those issues ended up in the T/A.

So why did NWA buy FLYI certificate then? Does this not concern you?

 

[redflyer65]

Why in God's name would the pilots allow the 76-120 seat planes to be flown under any other banner than Northwest is beside me. Fly them at Northwest under your proposed payscales. Is that so hard to achieve?

The company gets the rates they want, and the pilots get job security of not being sold to the highest bidder down the road. This is un-friggen believable.