NWA Straw Poll on TA

[Hvy]

Absolutely, positively could not agree more. Sign me and the 1230 non-scabs at AirTran up for the "Day of Shame" too.

After looking at the TA proposal, I have to say, this part of the proposal will bite you in the hindquarters more than you might think:

Redefine “Hours Flown” to pay scheduled vs. actual on a per trip basis, rather​

than a per-flight basis.

On my last trip, for example, the first day went 38 minutes over due to T-storms and some problems at the gate ($76. I earned every penny of) . . . . but the last day, which was a Sunday, found us boogeying out of LGA early, and got in 14 minutes early. Under your TA, I would have been penalized $28. for getting in early! Or, I could have just slowed WAY down on that Sunday, so as not to lose money . . . . .​

Smart move for mgmnt to ask for this? I don't think so, but what do I know? I'm just a lowly "yoke and throttle operator" from Sector 7-G.​

PS, the other 70 AirTran pilots . . . the EAL scabs . . . think "Hvy" is "right on" and are digging his posts. They also would like to see pictures of him in a "bannana hammock" whatever that is.


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Your bitterness is apparent. Life at UAL isn't what it once was but I'll bet it's much better than the only place you were able to find a job.

 

[Hvy]

What, the unemployment line isn't low enough for you? Get your head out of your as$.
This industry isn't what it used to be. Pensions are gone, wages are in the toilet and if you have any travel benefits (even if you have to PAY for them) you can't use them because you're working 23 days a month and all the planes are filled.

Enjoy your "dream job" because if you think it's going to get better, you're dreaming. I'll find something else to do. Even a garbage man makes more than 50K a year and he'll be home every night and can shower the stink of the job right off. Can you say the same???

Unhappy, aren't you? Bitterness eating you up? Poor baby. Critisize all you want. My job isn't what it used to be but I'm able to cope and I'm looking forward to what the future holds. Enjoy the time you have left.

 

[Freight Dog]

Unhappy, aren't you? Bitterness eating you up? Poor baby. Critisize all you want. My job isn't what it used to be but I'm able to cope and I'm looking forward to what the future holds. Enjoy the time you have left.

This gentleman is the prime example why this TA at NWA will pass.

 

[Hvy]

This gentleman is the prime example why this TA at NWA will pass.

Well...I'm not at NWA. So it would be pretty difficult for me to have much influence there. NWA management put themselves in their present position while refusing to raise ticket prices while the rest of the industry attempted to do so. Their tactic was used hoping to put UAL out of business. Well....it failed. And now their employees are going to either adapt or look for work elsewhere. At this point it is a matter of survival for them.

You seem to have pretty big balls wanting another pilot group to "make a stand." I'm sure that you would be at the front of the line if you were at NWA beating your chest and threatening to walk away. If your place of employment ever puts you in this position your perspective may very well change.

6 years ago places like UAL, Delta, NWA and American were the dream jobs that many hoped for. Those that were unable to achieve a position there are obviously envious and relishing at the hardships of those that were able to make it there. I would hope that I wouldn't be so bitter.

The airline industry has always been cyclic...they may well be at the top again. Will your bitterness continue to eat away at you? In the meantime life at my airline just isn't that bad. Since I used to work at a "third tier" airline like many of you that are critisizing NWA pilots, I have an idea what I'm talking about. We've taken enormous cuts in pay and work rules. But we're still here....and I'm sure that it bothers many of you. Your time may also come to take these cuts. Then you can "make your stand."

Life isn't as bad here as you think it is. While you were hanging out in Boise or Kansas City on your trips some of us were in Hong Kong, Sidney, or Shanghai having a pretty good time. Lounging at the beach on Maui or Lihue (Kauai for those of you that don't get out much) isn't too bad either. It's nice to have those options!

Flame away....I'm humored by the pettiness.

 

[Freight Dog]

You seem to have pretty big balls wanting another pilot group to "make a stand." I'm sure that you would be at the front of the line if you were at NWA beating your chest and threatening to walk away. If your place of employment ever puts you in this position your perspective may very well change.

My place of employment DID put me in the same position - chapter 11, threats of furloughs/liquidation, we also had the same gun pointed at our head - 1113(c) motion to dismiss our contract:

Aloha Airlines - December 30, 2004 to February 17, 2006.

My perspective remained the same from 9/11 to present day - take your concessions package and shove it where the sun don't shine. You can keep your shiny jet too.

 

[ExAF]

No

NO, >45, Blue. Not willing to fly for regional rates...too old. Too many other opportunities not related to flying and home every night. Burn down the house. Nothing to lose at this point.

 

[michael707767]

Just to clarify: the pension is already gone at NW. What remains is an agreement to freeze the plan at current benefit levels -- which is the same move being made in other industries. It's the security of the frozen plan that remains in doubt here, lacking any guarantees in the TA, and absent the federal funding relief legislation.

The TA offers a follow-on defined contribution plan, with a miserly 5% to 8% company contribution -- embarrassingly subpar in any industry, and far below what was expected by most NW pilots.

Understood. A freeze is far different from having your pension terminated and turned over to the PBGC. Yes, in other industries, pensions are being frozen. However they are also being terminated. If you think any company with a large DB plan, frozen or not, will enter BK and not take that opportunity to terminate, you are mistaken. The NW pension will be terminated.

 

[FCPhotography]

Still waiting for ALPA to set the pay (and other productivity issues) for aircraft and seat across the board. Treat pilot expense like the price of a tire and it makes management have to use their brains to be successful.

Strategy and experience will make an airline successful, or at least a higher ticket price. Not how cheap the pilots fly for.

 

[81Horse]

If you think any company with a large DB plan, frozen or not, will enter BK and not take that opportunity to terminate, you are mistaken. The NW pension will be terminated.

Hence my doubt that the TA will be ratified.

 

[gutshotdraw]

NO, >45, Blue. Not willing to fly for regional rates...too old. Too many other opportunities not related to flying and home every night. Burn down the house. Nothing to lose at this point.

Exactamundo

 

[YourPilotFriend]

The pension plan being terminated probably will not happen if the TA passes. If anything NWA will go into a second bankruptcy down the road if it becomes a problem.

 

[Dizel8]

The pension plan being terminated probably will not happen if the TA passes. If anything NWA will go into a second bankruptcy down the road if it becomes a problem.

I think it will, I think the pension is the carrot, and that the company will hold out on cancelling it until the T/A is signed. Once that is accomplished, the pension will soon be a goner, one way or another.

I don't work for NWA, but I think the pilots need to factor into this T/A that the pension is gone as well.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

The problem I have with that statement is NWA has reached its target cost savings from the pilots with the TA. Anymore over-reaching would be a slap in the face to the judge and he will not approve it. United and USairways pension termination was part of their restructuring plans. NWA terminating the pilot pension plan is not part of restructuring.

 

[Freight Dog]

The pension plan being terminated probably will not happen if the TA passes. If anything NWA will go into a second bankruptcy down the road if it becomes a problem.

The pension plan will be out so fast you won't even know what hit you. They'll come to you for another relief, and if you won't play along, here comes another 1113(c).

Every 'bankrupt' airline is (ab)using the bankruptcy protection to shed this "liability."

Right out of the playbook...

 

[Hvy]

My place of employment DID put me in the same position - chapter 11, threats of furloughs/liquidation, we also had the same gun pointed at our head - 1113(c) motion to dismiss our contract:

Aloha Airlines - December 30, 2004 to February 17, 2006.

My perspective remained the same from 9/11 to present day - take your concessions package and shove it where the sun don't shine. You can keep your shiny jet too.

You're such a tough guy....but "my concessions" still leave me above you in more ways than one.

 

[Dizel8]

The problem I have with that statement is NWA has reached its target cost savings from the pilots with the TA. Anymore over-reaching would be a slap in the face to the judge and he will not approve it. United and USairways pension termination was part of their restructuring plans. NWA terminating the pilot pension plan is not part of restructuring.

Not sure the judge will have much say in the matter when it happens, one because NWA management is about as ruthless as a shark smelling blood and two, the judge does not want to be the one that shuts the airline down.

Management WILL find a way to get rid of the pension, the only reason I can see they have not done it already is like I already mentioned, the carrot approach. Can NWA ALPA get a guarantee that the pension isn't next, I sincerely doubt it! The U pilots tried the very same approach, paycuts to save pension, and yet in the end, pension went puff, DAL appears to be going in the same direction rather swiftly, so you know NWA management must be thinking the very same thought and they don't want to be last man out!

If the pension survives, great, but if I were at NWA, I would, as I said, view this T/A in the light that the pension, as it was, is gone.

 

[Freight Dog]

You're such a tough guy....but "my concessions" still leave me above you in more ways than one.

I wasn't referring to you, but a message to the management.

Lighten up, Francis.

 

[Hvy]

I wasn't referring to you, but a message to the management.

Lighten up, Francis.

You did...and I apologize. Sorry.

 

[81Horse]

The pension plan being terminated probably will not happen if the TA passes. If anything NWA will go into a second bankruptcy down the road if it becomes a problem.

A second bankruptcy? I think those days are over, with the recent changes in BK law.

So I'm thinking: if the company had been willing to guarantee the security of the frozen pension plan, then that would be in the TA. Such a guarantee would probably have assured (barely) the ratification of the TA, ugly as it is. Without that assurance, the TA is a tough sell -- even to the most senior pilots.

 

[Lear70]

6 years ago places like UAL, Delta, NWA and American were the dream jobs that many hoped for.

Yes, they were.

Those that were unable to achieve a position there are obviously envious and relishing at the hardships of those that were able to make it there. I would hope that I wouldn't be so bitter.

No, I'm not, you egotistical a*s.

I didn't pass my United interview back in 2000. In retrospect, I am in a MUCH better position, having not had to go through a furlough during the worst hiring prospects EVER in the history of aviation, having had a job that pays the bills during this entire time, and now having an interview scheduled with a stable carrier that tops out above $200,000 a year after 15 years and an EXCELLENT retirement plan that they can't rob by law.

So no, most of us are THANKFUL, not bitter, that we didn't get hired on there. If you are one of the top 10% that are still making high six-figures and long international overnights, then congrats. But pull your head out of your a*s long enough to realize that YOU ARE IN THE MINORITY AT YOUR OWN AIRLINE, and indeed at ANY major airline.

We're also not "relishing" the hardships ANYONE is facing; quite the opposite, we're feeling the pinch along with everyone else and HOPING and PRAYING that this POS gets voted down and a REAL T.A. can be negotiated while the airline is shut down, because that's what it's going to take.

People like you are one of the main reasons this industry keeps spiraling down. "MY quality of life won't be affected, so I'm voting yes."