NWA Straw Poll on TA

[81Horse]

... book color means a great deal. I think most of the Blue Book will vote NO. Many are young enough to find another flying job or a new career. Most of those close to retirement (Red and Green) will probably vote yes just to finish out the string. ...

Okay, gutshot -- The Spouse is green. And I don't buy your premise, above. Most of our friends and acquaintances at NW (Red, Green, and Blue) are saying they plan to vote NO.

Yes, book color can indicate proximity to normal retirement -- but not necessarily. We have friends of all seniority at widely varying ages. The Spouse has 12 years to go, but hopes to bail at the earliest fiscally responsible opportunity.

And as far as I can tell, nobody believes the pensions are going to hold up. To believe that, you'd have had to be asleep the last few years.

 

[michael707767]

And as far as I can tell, nobody believes the pensions are going to hold up. To believe that, you'd have had to be asleep the last few years.

anybody who believes the pension will survive is a fool. You only have to look around the country, not the airline industry, but all industries. Defined benefit retirements are under attack everywhere. To think that NW will somehow emerge from BK with the pension intact is naive at best.

The USAir and UAL pilots set a low bar that other airlines are trying to match. But I believe they only took such deep cuts in an effort to preseve their pensions. The rest of us have the advantage of seeing what went on there. No amount of cuts will save a pension.

Before you vote, ask yourself if this is the deal you want to work under once your pension is gone.

 

[81Horse]

Defined benefit retirements are under attack everywhere. To think that NW will somehow emerge from BK with the pension intact is naive at best.

Just to clarify: the pension is already gone at NW. What remains is an agreement to freeze the plan at current benefit levels -- which is the same move being made in other industries. It's the security of the frozen plan that remains in doubt here, lacking any guarantees in the TA, and absent the federal funding relief legislation.

The TA offers a follow-on defined contribution plan, with a miserly 5% to 8% company contribution -- embarrassingly subpar in any industry, and far below what was expected by most NW pilots.

 

[135Drvr]

The TA offers a follow-on defined contribution plan, with a miserly 5% to 8% company contribution -- embarrassingly subpar in any industry, and far below what was expected by most NW pilots.[/quote]

And, if I'm not mistaken, the contribution doesn't start until AFTER they come out of bankruptcy. UAL was there four 4 years! Hope you've got a good investment plan, you'll need it.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Yes, book color can indicate proximity to normal retirement -- but not necessarily. We have friends of all seniority at widely varying ages. The Spouse has 12 years to go, but hopes to bail at the earliest fiscally responsible opportunity.

And as far as I can tell, nobody believes the pensions are going to hold up. To believe that, you'd have had to be asleep the last few years.

I told the spouse when she was hired 10 years ago not to expect a pension so I agree with you completely. My spouse is also going to bail at the earliest possible opportunity. My point was, in general, Reds have the most to lose in liquidation, Greens the second most, and Blues the least. I think the vote will follow those considerations.

 

[Hvy]

Absolutely, positively could not agree more. Sign me and the 1230 non-scabs at AirTran up for the "Day of Shame" too.

After looking at the TA proposal, I have to say, this part of the proposal will bite you in the hindquarters more than you might think:

Redefine “Hours Flown” to pay scheduled vs. actual on a per trip basis, rather​

than a per-flight basis.

On my last trip, for example, the first day went 38 minutes over due to T-storms and some problems at the gate ($76. I earned every penny of) . . . . but the last day, which was a Sunday, found us boogeying out of LGA early, and got in 14 minutes early. Under your TA, I would have been penalized $28. for getting in early! Or, I could have just slowed WAY down on that Sunday, so as not to lose money . . . . .​

Smart move for mgmnt to ask for this? I don't think so, but what do I know? I'm just a lowly "yoke and throttle operator" from Sector 7-G.​

PS, the other 70 AirTran pilots . . . the EAL scabs . . . think "Hvy" is "right on" and are digging his posts. They also would like to see pictures of him in a "bannana hammock" whatever that is.


.

Your bitterness is apparent. Life at UAL isn't what it once was but I'll bet it's much better than the only place you were able to find a job.

 

[Hvy]

What, the unemployment line isn't low enough for you? Get your head out of your as$.
This industry isn't what it used to be. Pensions are gone, wages are in the toilet and if you have any travel benefits (even if you have to PAY for them) you can't use them because you're working 23 days a month and all the planes are filled.

Enjoy your "dream job" because if you think it's going to get better, you're dreaming. I'll find something else to do. Even a garbage man makes more than 50K a year and he'll be home every night and can shower the stink of the job right off. Can you say the same???

Unhappy, aren't you? Bitterness eating you up? Poor baby. Critisize all you want. My job isn't what it used to be but I'm able to cope and I'm looking forward to what the future holds. Enjoy the time you have left.

 

[Freight Dog]

Unhappy, aren't you? Bitterness eating you up? Poor baby. Critisize all you want. My job isn't what it used to be but I'm able to cope and I'm looking forward to what the future holds. Enjoy the time you have left.

This gentleman is the prime example why this TA at NWA will pass.

 

[Hvy]

This gentleman is the prime example why this TA at NWA will pass.

Well...I'm not at NWA. So it would be pretty difficult for me to have much influence there. NWA management put themselves in their present position while refusing to raise ticket prices while the rest of the industry attempted to do so. Their tactic was used hoping to put UAL out of business. Well....it failed. And now their employees are going to either adapt or look for work elsewhere. At this point it is a matter of survival for them.

You seem to have pretty big balls wanting another pilot group to "make a stand." I'm sure that you would be at the front of the line if you were at NWA beating your chest and threatening to walk away. If your place of employment ever puts you in this position your perspective may very well change.

6 years ago places like UAL, Delta, NWA and American were the dream jobs that many hoped for. Those that were unable to achieve a position there are obviously envious and relishing at the hardships of those that were able to make it there. I would hope that I wouldn't be so bitter.

The airline industry has always been cyclic...they may well be at the top again. Will your bitterness continue to eat away at you? In the meantime life at my airline just isn't that bad. Since I used to work at a "third tier" airline like many of you that are critisizing NWA pilots, I have an idea what I'm talking about. We've taken enormous cuts in pay and work rules. But we're still here....and I'm sure that it bothers many of you. Your time may also come to take these cuts. Then you can "make your stand."

Life isn't as bad here as you think it is. While you were hanging out in Boise or Kansas City on your trips some of us were in Hong Kong, Sidney, or Shanghai having a pretty good time. Lounging at the beach on Maui or Lihue (Kauai for those of you that don't get out much) isn't too bad either. It's nice to have those options!

Flame away....I'm humored by the pettiness.

 

[Freight Dog]

You seem to have pretty big balls wanting another pilot group to "make a stand." I'm sure that you would be at the front of the line if you were at NWA beating your chest and threatening to walk away. If your place of employment ever puts you in this position your perspective may very well change.

My place of employment DID put me in the same position - chapter 11, threats of furloughs/liquidation, we also had the same gun pointed at our head - 1113(c) motion to dismiss our contract:

Aloha Airlines - December 30, 2004 to February 17, 2006.

My perspective remained the same from 9/11 to present day - take your concessions package and shove it where the sun don't shine. You can keep your shiny jet too.

 

[ExAF]

No

NO, >45, Blue. Not willing to fly for regional rates...too old. Too many other opportunities not related to flying and home every night. Burn down the house. Nothing to lose at this point.

 

[michael707767]

Just to clarify: the pension is already gone at NW. What remains is an agreement to freeze the plan at current benefit levels -- which is the same move being made in other industries. It's the security of the frozen plan that remains in doubt here, lacking any guarantees in the TA, and absent the federal funding relief legislation.

The TA offers a follow-on defined contribution plan, with a miserly 5% to 8% company contribution -- embarrassingly subpar in any industry, and far below what was expected by most NW pilots.

Understood. A freeze is far different from having your pension terminated and turned over to the PBGC. Yes, in other industries, pensions are being frozen. However they are also being terminated. If you think any company with a large DB plan, frozen or not, will enter BK and not take that opportunity to terminate, you are mistaken. The NW pension will be terminated.

 

[FCPhotography]

Still waiting for ALPA to set the pay (and other productivity issues) for aircraft and seat across the board. Treat pilot expense like the price of a tire and it makes management have to use their brains to be successful.

Strategy and experience will make an airline successful, or at least a higher ticket price. Not how cheap the pilots fly for.

 

[81Horse]

If you think any company with a large DB plan, frozen or not, will enter BK and not take that opportunity to terminate, you are mistaken. The NW pension will be terminated.

Hence my doubt that the TA will be ratified.

 

[gutshotdraw]

NO, >45, Blue. Not willing to fly for regional rates...too old. Too many other opportunities not related to flying and home every night. Burn down the house. Nothing to lose at this point.

Exactamundo