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NWA/DAL solving the seniority issue

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Occam's Razor said:
Yup. The talks are done. Over.

(ended on the 11th)

It's now up the MEC's to act...or not act.

Both are meeting this week.
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Clarification please. WSJ indicates talks are recessed due to MEC meetings this week, which suggests they are not over.

You are saying they are over, suggesting final positions are taken, and it's a up or down vote, no more talks.

Which is it?
 
jke406 said:
you've to to start sometime.
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Sure, I just think the hysteria to merge due to soaring oil prices is fluff. There may be a number of valid reason to do it, but it's not going to save anyone a nickel in fuel for a long time.
 
The only thing that a merger will accomplish in the fuel arena is this. It allows the combined company a better credit rating, this allowing us to hedge at a significantly higher percentage of total fuel required. We will have more cash on hand and a better rating, which will allow us to increase our hedges in the near term. Even if we have a separate balance sheet for each company, both will have their ratings increased immediately due to the possibility of a merger.
Other than this not much.
 
Fly4hire said:
Clarification please. WSJ indicates talks are recessed due to MEC meetings this week, which suggests they are not over.

You are saying they are over, suggesting final positions are taken, and it's a up or down vote, no more talks.

Which is it?
Click to expand...

The WSJ thinks there will be more talks. I disagree with the WSJ.

I think it will take a significant external event to re-convene discussions.
 
Occam's Razor said:
The WSJ thinks there will be more talks. I disagree with the WSJ.

I think it will take a significant external event to re-convene discussions.
Click to expand...

Is there a SLI proposal that makes boths sides equally unhappy now being deliberated?
 
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Fly4hire said:
Is there a SLI proposal that makes boths sides equally unhappy now being deliberated?
Click to expand...

Disclaimer: I don't have a Red Phone to the mucky-mucks. I attend meetings, make phone calls, and know all the key players on both sides. Everybody has done a good job of shielding their cards...but there's enough "public domain" gouge out there to figure most of this out.

I think everybody, save a few "triple-digit" types on both lists, will be upset. How upset depends on their ability to to see the big picture. A few weeks ago, my view was that the SLI would be an easier "sell" to the DAL MEC/pilots, than it would be to ours. Now, based on what I've heard, both sides will be upset. HOW upset, in relative terms? Don't know...don't care.

Here are the facts as I know them:

1. NWA is for sale. No, General Lee, my simian friend, I don't mean it like THAT. Our CEO, who is a mere mouthpiece for our BOD, has stated unambiguously that consolidation is "inevitable". Since we all know about the Golden Share, we know that almost all paths to consolidation lead through MSP.

2. DAL is for sale. No, my Redbutt brothers, I don't mean it like THAT. Anderson, who actually has some leadership strands in his DNA, has made it very clear that DAL will be having unprotected sex with a partner soon.

3. AF/KLM has a pile of Euros they're itching to invest in their Alliance partnership at a time when the Hedge Fund dweebs (Wayzata, Owl Creek, Blackstone, etc) are itching to cut their losses and bail out. That shiny pile of loot won't be spent on just any deal. They are interested in a deal that has easily exploitable operational advantages. The influence of AF/KLM, combined with the "abandon ship!" desire of the short-term investors here, points to a DAL-NWA hook-up.

4. Putting the list together ourselves is better than having an arbitrator do it. We have no control over how an arbitrator will decide. (Can I get an "Amen!" from an LCC brother?) To dissuade us from shouting "Screw it! We'll let the arbitrator tell you how much you're overreaching!", which is ignorance at it's zenith, we've been offered incentives to do the list ourselves.

5. There is no Plan B. There have been no discussions of how to deal with a failure of this process. That increases the vulnerability of both pilot groups to management if/when they force us to consummate this arranged marriage.

If both MEC's can vote on this thing this week, we have a chance to save ourselves from...[Irony Alert!] ourselves.
 
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Occam's Razor said:
To dissuade us from shouting "Screw it! We'll let the arbitrator tell you how much you're overreaching!", which is ignorance at it's zenith, we've been offered incentives to do the list ourselves.
Click to expand...



No, "ignorance at its zenith" would be represented by what NWA pilots are demanding. Pure lunacy.

My Delta friends would be much better served in arbitration than they would by giving up even more than they have already offered, to try to get the stubborn (and deluded) NWA pilots on board.
Click to expand...
 
So are they back at it? Is there actually a chance of some sort of agreement between the MEC's, or are we where we were last week?
Occam, care to chime in?
 
Once again oil is up on the day and its looking like it will close above 110 per barrel. Occam, Is this the external event that will force this deal?
 
Occam's Razor said:
...or some advice: Next time you visit the Fountain Of Knowledge, try taking a drink
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Is that what they're calling the pilots' crapper at MSP now?

You've had far too much to drink out of that "fountain."

I'll make sure to flush twice from now on.
 
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jke406 said:
Is that what they're calling the pilots' crapper at MSP now?

You've had far too much to drink out of that "fountain."

I'll make sure to flush twice from now on.
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My question is this.

How are you still here? Why have the mods let you stay? You have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to offer...ever...with any of your post's.

Your flame bait isn't even funny.

Nothing...no inside info to offer, no humor, not even occasional sarcastic wit.

USELESS you are!
 
Redmeat said:
My question is this.

How are you still here? Why have the mods let you stay? You have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to offer...ever...with any of your post's.

Your flame bait isn't even funny.

Nothing...no inside info to offer, no humor, not even occasional sarcastic wit.

USELESS you are!
Click to expand...

Somebody give this man an AMEN!:beer:
Don't worry redmeat, this prick will come back as tanker clown, or jmoney or one of his other screen names!

737
 
Wailing and gnashing of teeth

Occam's Razor said:
4. Putting the list together ourselves is better than having an arbitrator do it. We have no control over how an arbitrator will decide.
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Better for the membership, yes. But the political angels of each MEC's nature may whisper: "Better a horrible deal blamed on the arbitrator than a semi-horrible deal blamed on us." :bomb:
 
tomgoodman said:
Better for the membership, yes. But the political angels of each MEC's nature may whisper: "Better a horrible deal blamed on the arbitrator than a semi-horrible deal blamed on us." :bomb:
Click to expand...

What are a MEC's options for removing, replacing, neutering a merger committee and it's members when they are unwilling to put themselves on the line? Seems to me that when you volunteer for the position you know some hard, unpopular decisions will come with the territory. In fact, no matter what you come up with most will be pissed. If your plan is arbitration you haven't done your job, in my opinion. It'd be like me doing an autoland on every approach (many think I should) because I really don't want to be responsible for the landing.

No one's convinced me that a merger will be in our best interests but if it's going to happen anyway, we may as well benefit. Do we get the contract benefits from an arbitrated settlement? I've heard any negotiated deal will be put to a vote on both sides. No one wants to put something out there that people will vote down but in an arbitrated settlement we have no idea what we'll get and no one gets to vote (unless you count trying to leave ALPA as a vote), which is a huge reason the DL guys are against it.
 
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Noserider76 said:
What are a MEC's options for removing, replacing, neutering a merger committee and it's members when they are unwilling to put themselves on the line? Seems to me that when you volunteer for the position you know some hard, unpopular decisions will come with the territory. In fact, no matter what you come up with most will be pissed. If your plan is arbitration you haven't done your job, in my opinion. It'd be like me doing an autoland on every approach (many think I should) because I really don't want to be responsible for the landing.

No one's convinced me that a merger will be in our best interests but if it's going to happen anyway, we may as well benefit. Do we get the contract benefits from an arbitrated settlement? I've heard any negotiated deal will be put to a vote on both sides. No one wants to put something out there that people will vote down but in an arbitrated settlement we have no idea what we'll get and no one gets to vote (unless you count trying to leave ALPA as a vote), which is a huge reason the DL guys are against it.
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Great post Noserider.

To answer your question keep in mind that the most senior (read most influential) pilots have control of this deal.

At NW that means the infamous '400 club' whom usually don't know whether we have guys on furlough or not. Real 'out of touch with the common man (pilot)' bunch.
 
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Redmeat said:
Great post Noserider.

To answer your question keep in mind that the most senior (read most influential) pilots have control of this deal.

At NW that means the infamous '400 club' whom usually don't know whether we have guys on furlough or not. Real 'out of touch with the common man (pilot)' bunch.
Click to expand...

We got rid of a lot of guys like that with the threat of losing the pensions. Tom Goodman PROBABLY was NOT one of those types, but there were plenty of them in the 2000 or so guys that left.

Bye Bye--General Lee
 
Occam's Razor said:
Disclaimer:
Click to expand...


Heyas Occam,

Not to contradict the teacher, but it's my understanding from my rep that there is NO proposal, thus nothing to be voted on.. none, blank, goose egg, nadir, naught, nil, nix, nothing, nullity, oblivion, ought, void, zero, zilch, zip, zot, {empty}.

I could be wrong, but I think if it's going to happen, it's going to be forced.

Nu
 
NuGuy said:
Heyas Occam,

Not to contradict the teacher, but it's my understanding from my rep that there is NO proposal, thus nothing to be voted on.. none, blank, goose egg, nadir, naught, nil, nix, nothing, nullity, oblivion, ought, void, zero, zilch, zip, zot, {empty}.

I could be wrong, but I think if it's going to happen, it's going to be forced.

Nu
Click to expand...

Ditto on this side of the fence.
 
Redmeat said:
At NW that means the infamous '400 club' whom usually don't know whether we have guys on furlough or not. Real 'out of touch with the common man (pilot)' bunch.
Click to expand...
At Delta, the merger Committee was a junior/mid level Captain and 2 FO's, wasn't it?
 

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