NWA/DAL negotiations update

[Superpilot92]

Wait, wait, you chose NWA because of the upcoming mass retirements? Come on! Ridiculous statement here, read to you by the NWA MEC people..... You are trying to add your only power point argument that really was blown away by age 65. Come on now.

Besides, your only initial options at NWA were the DC9 or the FE panel on the old whale. So, again, you chose NWA so you could EVENTUALLY move up fast, to maybe a widebody that you could have initially held at Delta, right? Is that right?


Bye Bye--General Lee

And today on "General Lee and the restless", we have the same old drama and soap opera issues as yesterday and everyday before that.

Take a deep breath GL your going off the deep end again. Relax :beer:

 

[Superpilot92]

How does 65 change anything? Your guys get to retire at 65, too, pushing upgrades there back 5 years as well. RA65 doesn't just affect NWA.

Careful with logic!!! You know what that does to most people on FI?

 

[p3flteng]

Wait, wait, you chose NWA because of the upcoming mass retirements? Come on! Ridiculous statement here, read to you by the NWA MEC people..... You are trying to add your only power point argument that really was blown away by age 65. Come on now.

Besides, your only initial options at NWA were the DC9 or the FE panel on the old whale. So, again, you chose NWA so you could EVENTUALLY move up fast, to maybe a widebody that you could have initially held at Delta, right? Is that right?


Bye Bye--General Lee

I could hold the Airbus if I wanted to, I CHOOSE not to for my own reasons. I am not spouting MEC Powerpoints, I Chose NWA because of the beginning of a hiring wave, in on the ground floor, and lots of upcoming retirements. Don't presume to judge me, I left a International 767 Job making 40 grand more to work at NWA. I don't want to be put ahead of ANYONE who was hired before me...its just not right. I would hope for the same professional courtesy and respect from Delta.

Can you say the same?

 

[General Lee]

What about relative seniority for everyone hired prior to 9/11 and DOH afterwards? That seems reasonable and i am a post 9/11 NWA guy.

Of course you would like that. Every time you hear about the possibility of us hiring again, it makes you cringe. I can understand that. What happened over at USAir and their relative seniority? The bottom guy at USAir had 17 years with the company. I bet he wished he had DOH. That is not how it worked out, and his own company is the one to blame, not the America West guys. If NWA is stopping hiring, that is not our fault. Every newhire here helps with my own eventual relative seniority.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I could hold the Airbus if I wanted to, I CHOOSE not to for my own reasons. I am not spouting MEC Powerpoints, I Chose NWA because of the beginning of a hiring wave, in on the ground floor, and lots of upcoming retirements. Don't presume to judge me, I left a International 767 Job making 40 grand more to work at NWA. I don't want to be put ahead of ANYONE who was hired before me...its just not right. I would hope for the same professional courtesy and respect from Delta.

Can you say the same?

Professional courtesy? Like your unprepared negotiators gave ours? The first thing they asked was "ok, which arbitrator should we use?" That is ridiculous.

Look, I think we will make a great combo eventually, but you have to understand that we do bring a lot to the table---more widebodies, better pay, better bases. As far as who goes in front of who---well, your guys didn't want to negotiate. Looking at the Nicelau award, it looks like relative seniority may happen again. If you are in the bottom 12%, you will probably be in the bottom 12% of the new list. That seems fair.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FDJ2]

I believe a major reason that you can hold 76 intl is because of the mass exodus of retirements Delta has already experienced. I am also Junior but on the DC9, I chose NWA because I could move up quickly with the large amount of retirements upcoming.

That's a common myth. Early retirements ended 3 years ago, and most of those who early retired would have retired by now regardless. Also many of the early retirees were on disability. The impact of the early retirements on the DAL list isn't as big as some believe.

Here's an excellent explanation of the numbers:

In the three years before we faced liquidity shortfall (10/1/2002 – 10/1/2005) we had about 2,200 pilots retire. About 1,450 of those pilots would have retired by December 2007 (when the FAA retirement age changed). Of those 750 left, about 250 were on long term disability. Of the 450 left, 100 would not be in the top 33% of our list today. Therefore, you are talking about 350 pilots that early retired that held active flying positions and would be in the top 33% on our list. A significant number but not the “thousands” that the Northwest pilots expect.

Note: Of the remaining 350 pilots some would have been lost to attrition so the actual number would even be a bit smaller.

The upward mobility at DAL is driven by the shift to international flying of the 767-300 fleet, 767-400 fleet the acquisition of 17 B757-200ERs, the delivery of 3 B777-200LRs and the scheduled delivery of 6 more B777-200LRs in the next 10 months. Not early retirements 3-6 years ago.

Hopefully we will have a negotiated SLI, if not, it will be a more drawn out and divisive process. However, if what you can hold is DC-9 F/O and not anything bigger, than at the end of the process that's all you'll be able to hold. Your DOH is not relevant other than to determine your premerger spot on the NWA list.

 

[p3flteng]

Professional courtesy? Like your unprepared negotiators gave ours? The first thing they asked was "ok, which arbitrator should we use?" That is ridiculous.

Look, I think we will make a great combo eventually, but you have to understand that we do bring a lot to the table---more widebodies, better pay, better bases. As far as who goes in front of who---well, your guys didn't want to negotiate. Looking at the Nicelau award, it looks like relative seniority may happen again. If you are in the bottom 12%, you will probably be in the bottom 12% of the new list. That seems fair.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I am beyond pointing fingers with the he said she said...its just not productive. We both bring much to the table, and like I said, I will put a smile on and go to work(if possible) no matter what. Lets hope that some progress has been made and the MEC's TOGETHER get a contract with Delta Management. Then the SLI will hopefully be right around the corner.

Remember, one can only sling so much sheet before you get some on yourself.

 

[FDJ2]

I think our future still looks bright but in the near term it might seem a bit bumpy. From what i am hearing if this is done properly then none of us should be out looking for a job. Lets just hope fuel at least levels off, that is the big outlying factor. Good luck and stay positive :beer:

That's the right attitude to have. This process will get bumpy along the way. It will work itself out, hopefully through negotiations, where nobody wins and nobody loses, but if it goes through arbitration, we'll all survive that too. Some maybe better than others, but that's the nature of arbitration.

Regardless, I believe that 2-3 years from now, if we get this done right, we will all be working for a stronger, more viable company and making more money doing it.

 

[Superpilot92]

That's the right attitude to have. This process will get bumpy along the way. It will work itself out, hopefully through negotiations, where nobody wins and nobody loses, but if it goes through arbitration, we'll all survive that too. Some maybe better than others, but that's the nature of arbitration.

Regardless, I believe that 2-3 years from now, if we get this done right, we will all be working for a stronger, more viable company and making more money doing it.

Exactly!!! Now what do we have to do to get GL to stop his mud slinging? Same team GL, dont forget.

 

[michael707767]

Here's an excellent explanation of the numbers:

In the three years before we faced liquidity shortfall (10/1/2002 – 10/1/2005) we had about 2,200 pilots retire. About 1,450 of those pilots would have retired by December 2007 (when the FAA retirement age changed). Of those 750 left, about 250 were on long term disability. Of the 450 left, 100 would not be in the top 33% of our list today. Therefore, you are talking about 350 pilots that early retired that held active flying positions and would be in the top 33% on our list. A significant number but not the “thousands” that the Northwest pilots expect.

Note: Of the remaining 350 pilots some would have been lost to attrition so the actual number would even be a bit smaller.

you know better than to confuse them with the facts.

 

[Fly4hire]

Professional courtesy? Like your unprepared negotiators gave ours? The first thing they asked was "ok, which arbitrator should we use?" That is ridiculous.
Bye Bye--General Lee

Total urban myth - you guys spin more than a top.

The other side is we showed up with 15 and you showed up with 3 and were only prepared to dictate terms, not negotiate - maybe if it was said at all the question was in response to Moak's (are RA Lips moving) ultimatums?

We'll see where this goes, and hopefully it's reasonable for everyone - if we end up in arbitration it's only because Moak refuses to budge off of untenable positions - ones that an arbitrator will likely toss.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I am also Junior but on the DC9, I chose NWA because I could move up quickly with the large amount of retirements upcoming.

MY point is that I shouldn't be penalized for flying the DC9. Senoirity wise I was hired in November, and if you think its fair to place a DL newhire hired after me in front of me just because you can hold Something big thats wrong, we are both junior. I would like to see all the newhires post BK be date of hire, that is fair considering that Delta has many more and NWA has 220.

With that logic, why not give Comair date of hire with the NWA pilots? Really!

Size and pay DO matter. Since you NWA pilots like arbitration so much, look at Arbitrators' rulings and see what they write about the subject.

I'm not too spun up about it. If your side pulls off something like that, I'll humbly submit my job to you and go find another. I never applied to NWA and would not. There are better Corporate jobs out there.

 

[~~~^~~~]

-- ones that an arbitrator will likely toss.

The structure of every arbitration award I can reference is relative seniority by equipment. Isn't that what your own group did to Republic, for 20 years?

 

[~~~^~~~]

That’s why you don’t understand our issues. I don’t think you quite understand why NWA wants DOH and we, DAL, want a relative seniority. I am 95% at DAL, I was hired summer 07, NWA 95% was hired 03/01, I believe. Why should those pilots get a huge bump in company seniority? 95% at one company 95% at the new company. Please explain to me how this system is so unfair?
As far as projected retirements, if NWA could get on paper how many pilots are going to retire they could have a leg to stand on, as of right now, all they have is pilots expected to reach age 60 soon. I guess I don’t understand if they have so many retirements coming up, how come they have displacement bids coming out?

Exactly!

 

[Superpilot92]

I'm not too spun up about it. If your side pulls off something like that, I'll humbly submit my job to you and go find another. I never applied to NWA and would not. There are better Corporate jobs out there.

Come on fins dont be a drama queen like GL. and for your post above ^^, do you believe, you as a 2007 hire at DAL, should be in front of 2001 hires at NWA?

 

[nwaredtail]

The structure of every arbitration award I can reference is relative seniority by equipment. Isn't that what your own group did to Republic, for 20 years?

examples?

and no, the Roberts award wasn't anything like relative seniority by equipment

 

[~~~^~~~]

examples?

and no, the Roberts award wasn't anything like relative seniority by equipment

I'm all ears. What seniority did they get? Could they bid NWA's equipment? I'm no Robert's expert and would like to know more about how NWA's been doing things.

Find me a dynamic seniority example and I'll play. Since I'm a gentleman, I'll go first, Tigers/FedEx. Your turn....

 

[~~~^~~~]

... do you believe, you as a 2007 hire at DAL, should be in front of 2001 hires at NWA?

I do not know. It depends on that pilot's relative seniority.

Why should I take a relative seniority hit, when I'm on a bigger aircraft and we are awarding new positions while NWA is having displacements?

How big a cut should I take from status quo? What would you consider "fair" to take away from me? Be specific. It is an earnest question.

How about the DAL 2001 hire(s) holding MD88 CA, JFK? Where would you put them?

If it is something I can't live with, then I will not spend the rest of my life being bitter. I'll find another opportunity. Hopefully they'll offer voluntary LOA's rather than displacements.

It is tough to figure this out near the bottom of the list and the windfalls and losses are enormous in current take home pay. Almost universally the NWA guys are getting more pay and better choices.

I do not claim to have all the answers, but relative seniority is the most logical solution that I've heard (even though I still lose a lot under Relative Seniority)

 

[nwaredtail]

I'm all ears. What seniority did they get? Could they bid NWA's equipment? I'm no Robert's expert and would like to know more about how NWA's been doing things.

Find me a dynamic seniority example and I'll play. Since I'm a gentleman, I'll go first, Tigers/FedEx. Your turn....

No, no hotshot. Specific examples. Show me the nuts and bolts of it.

Waiting....

 

[clippyrip]

Why should I take a relative seniority hit, when I'm on a bigger aircraft and we are awarding new positions while NWA is having displacements?

OK, by your rationale, since I am a new hire and on the 747-200, which is premium widebody, then I will be placed ahead of 80% of the delta pilots. That will also apply to all the displacements as well.

On the other end of the spectrum, there are many pilots who bid lifestyle and are in lower AC than they can hold. Should they be punished because they they chose a smaller AC?

No, exactly.

 

[~~~^~~~]

No, no hotshot. Specific examples. Show me the nuts and bolts of it.

Waiting....

no - Your turn... find a dynamic example. I provided you with a relative example.

Set the standard you expect me to follow and I'll play.

 

[FDJ2]

I'm all ears. What seniority did they get? Could they bid NWA's equipment? ..

The Roberts award was DOH with conditions and restrictions. It's resulted in many NWA pilots being out of seniority in their seats.

It is worth mentioning that at the time of the Roberts awards ALPA merger policy specified DOH with conditions and restrictions in order to maintain current status, pay, career expectations, prevent windfalls etc.

The language has changed since then and the goal of maintaining DOH was dropped. Now the merger policy seeks to maintain premerger status, pay, career expectations, no windfalls etc. through establishment of a seniority list, not conditions and restrictions. DOH is no longer a part of ALPA merger policy, except for those who like to negotiate and arbitrate in the rear view mirror. ALPA merger policy favors, as Nicolau interpretted it, ratios by comparable equipment positions brought to the merger.

 

[FDJ2]

Double post

 

[FDJ2]

OK, by your rationale, since I am a new hire and on the 747-200, which is premium widebody, then I will be placed ahead of 80% of the delta pilots. That will also apply to all the displacements as well.

On the other end of the spectrum, there are many pilots who bid lifestyle and are in lower AC than they can hold. Should they be punished because they they chose a smaller AC?

No, exactly.

You wont be slotted by what you choose to hold, you'll probably be slotted by the equity value of the positions brought to the merger. Your list wont be reordered because one pilot chooses a junior piece of equipment and another chooses a senior piece of equipment.

As an example, not real numbers, DAL has 200 777 CA positions, NWA has 300 747 CA positions, the first 500 positions would be slotted 1.5-1 NWA-DAL and it would work its way down from there. The slotting might also take into account first officer positions.

For example, Nicolau awarded the top 517 positions to AAA (in its second bankruptcy at the time of the merger) because AAA brought 517 wide bodied captain and first officer positions that AWA didn't. He then worked his way down the list based on comparable equipment.

What do you hold on the 747, CA? F/O?, FE? What does it pay? Does an FE seat on the 747 classic have more value than a F/O seat on a 767ER for your years of service?

 

[PuffDriver]

OK, by your rationale, since I am a new hire and on the 747-200, which is premium widebody, then I will be placed ahead of 80% of the delta pilots. That will also apply to all the displacements as well.

On the other end of the spectrum, there are many pilots who bid lifestyle and are in lower AC than they can hold. Should they be punished because they they chose a smaller AC?

No, exactly.

He he, 747 FE "premium" flying. You guys are getting your keesters handed to you here and on the national forum.

 

[nwaredtail]

He he, 747 FE "premium" flying. You guys are getting your keesters handed to you here and on the national forum.

Hey, Scabboy is back. Considering 80% of your "widebody" flying is paid the same as 757, I wouldn't make fun of the word premium.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

12 year s/o 102+intl ovrd = 73ng and more than md80. If we are such an albatross, then why is moak and the gang raising hell to stop this? You know why, you need us as we need you. If this was not the case then why are y'all not doing the keep delta my delta thing again? If you are so sure about deltas stand alone future then man up and block this thing. Otherwise be honest and admit that both mecs are doing there best (jtfs, veritas, media leaks, talking points etc) to represent thier pilots. You have to give both mecs credit for trying to protect the entire list, not just the sr. At some point we will have to work together.

He he, 747 FE "premium" flying. You guys are getting your keesters handed to you here and on the national forum.

 

[General Lee]

Hey, Scabboy is back. Considering 80% of your "widebody" flying is paid the same as 757, I wouldn't make fun of the word premium.

You still don't get it. When we did the 777 pay rates in 2000, we brought the 757 rates UP to the 767 rates. True fact. LOA 19 also brings the 737-700 rates up to the 738 rates. Thanks for playing... And, you shouldn't be comparing our rates to yours---yours are an embarrassment. But hey, your senior guys get a pension.......


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[michael707767]

Hey, Scabboy is back. Considering 80% of your "widebody" flying is paid the same as 757, I wouldn't make fun of the word premium.

hmm, since our 757 pays the same as your A330, seems to me it is fairly premium.

 

[michael707767]

He he, 747 FE "premium" flying.

Premium flying?? Premium plumbing.