NWA/DAL negotiations update

[Superpilot92]

Wait, wait, you chose NWA because of the upcoming mass retirements? Come on! Ridiculous statement here, read to you by the NWA MEC people..... You are trying to add your only power point argument that really was blown away by age 65. Come on now.

Besides, your only initial options at NWA were the DC9 or the FE panel on the old whale. So, again, you chose NWA so you could EVENTUALLY move up fast, to maybe a widebody that you could have initially held at Delta, right? Is that right?


Bye Bye--General Lee

And today on "General Lee and the restless", we have the same old drama and soap opera issues as yesterday and everyday before that.

Take a deep breath GL your going off the deep end again. Relax :beer:

 

[Superpilot92]

How does 65 change anything? Your guys get to retire at 65, too, pushing upgrades there back 5 years as well. RA65 doesn't just affect NWA.

Careful with logic!!! You know what that does to most people on FI?

 

[p3flteng]

Wait, wait, you chose NWA because of the upcoming mass retirements? Come on! Ridiculous statement here, read to you by the NWA MEC people..... You are trying to add your only power point argument that really was blown away by age 65. Come on now.

Besides, your only initial options at NWA were the DC9 or the FE panel on the old whale. So, again, you chose NWA so you could EVENTUALLY move up fast, to maybe a widebody that you could have initially held at Delta, right? Is that right?


Bye Bye--General Lee

I could hold the Airbus if I wanted to, I CHOOSE not to for my own reasons. I am not spouting MEC Powerpoints, I Chose NWA because of the beginning of a hiring wave, in on the ground floor, and lots of upcoming retirements. Don't presume to judge me, I left a International 767 Job making 40 grand more to work at NWA. I don't want to be put ahead of ANYONE who was hired before me...its just not right. I would hope for the same professional courtesy and respect from Delta.

Can you say the same?

 

[General Lee]

What about relative seniority for everyone hired prior to 9/11 and DOH afterwards? That seems reasonable and i am a post 9/11 NWA guy.

Of course you would like that. Every time you hear about the possibility of us hiring again, it makes you cringe. I can understand that. What happened over at USAir and their relative seniority? The bottom guy at USAir had 17 years with the company. I bet he wished he had DOH. That is not how it worked out, and his own company is the one to blame, not the America West guys. If NWA is stopping hiring, that is not our fault. Every newhire here helps with my own eventual relative seniority.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I could hold the Airbus if I wanted to, I CHOOSE not to for my own reasons. I am not spouting MEC Powerpoints, I Chose NWA because of the beginning of a hiring wave, in on the ground floor, and lots of upcoming retirements. Don't presume to judge me, I left a International 767 Job making 40 grand more to work at NWA. I don't want to be put ahead of ANYONE who was hired before me...its just not right. I would hope for the same professional courtesy and respect from Delta.

Can you say the same?

Professional courtesy? Like your unprepared negotiators gave ours? The first thing they asked was "ok, which arbitrator should we use?" That is ridiculous.

Look, I think we will make a great combo eventually, but you have to understand that we do bring a lot to the table---more widebodies, better pay, better bases. As far as who goes in front of who---well, your guys didn't want to negotiate. Looking at the Nicelau award, it looks like relative seniority may happen again. If you are in the bottom 12%, you will probably be in the bottom 12% of the new list. That seems fair.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FDJ2]

I believe a major reason that you can hold 76 intl is because of the mass exodus of retirements Delta has already experienced. I am also Junior but on the DC9, I chose NWA because I could move up quickly with the large amount of retirements upcoming.

That's a common myth. Early retirements ended 3 years ago, and most of those who early retired would have retired by now regardless. Also many of the early retirees were on disability. The impact of the early retirements on the DAL list isn't as big as some believe.

Here's an excellent explanation of the numbers:

In the three years before we faced liquidity shortfall (10/1/2002 – 10/1/2005) we had about 2,200 pilots retire. About 1,450 of those pilots would have retired by December 2007 (when the FAA retirement age changed). Of those 750 left, about 250 were on long term disability. Of the 450 left, 100 would not be in the top 33% of our list today. Therefore, you are talking about 350 pilots that early retired that held active flying positions and would be in the top 33% on our list. A significant number but not the “thousands” that the Northwest pilots expect.

Note: Of the remaining 350 pilots some would have been lost to attrition so the actual number would even be a bit smaller.

The upward mobility at DAL is driven by the shift to international flying of the 767-300 fleet, 767-400 fleet the acquisition of 17 B757-200ERs, the delivery of 3 B777-200LRs and the scheduled delivery of 6 more B777-200LRs in the next 10 months. Not early retirements 3-6 years ago.

Hopefully we will have a negotiated SLI, if not, it will be a more drawn out and divisive process. However, if what you can hold is DC-9 F/O and not anything bigger, than at the end of the process that's all you'll be able to hold. Your DOH is not relevant other than to determine your premerger spot on the NWA list.

 

[p3flteng]

Professional courtesy? Like your unprepared negotiators gave ours? The first thing they asked was "ok, which arbitrator should we use?" That is ridiculous.

Look, I think we will make a great combo eventually, but you have to understand that we do bring a lot to the table---more widebodies, better pay, better bases. As far as who goes in front of who---well, your guys didn't want to negotiate. Looking at the Nicelau award, it looks like relative seniority may happen again. If you are in the bottom 12%, you will probably be in the bottom 12% of the new list. That seems fair.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I am beyond pointing fingers with the he said she said...its just not productive. We both bring much to the table, and like I said, I will put a smile on and go to work(if possible) no matter what. Lets hope that some progress has been made and the MEC's TOGETHER get a contract with Delta Management. Then the SLI will hopefully be right around the corner.

Remember, one can only sling so much sheet before you get some on yourself.

 

[FDJ2]

I think our future still looks bright but in the near term it might seem a bit bumpy. From what i am hearing if this is done properly then none of us should be out looking for a job. Lets just hope fuel at least levels off, that is the big outlying factor. Good luck and stay positive :beer:

That's the right attitude to have. This process will get bumpy along the way. It will work itself out, hopefully through negotiations, where nobody wins and nobody loses, but if it goes through arbitration, we'll all survive that too. Some maybe better than others, but that's the nature of arbitration.

Regardless, I believe that 2-3 years from now, if we get this done right, we will all be working for a stronger, more viable company and making more money doing it.

 

[Superpilot92]

That's the right attitude to have. This process will get bumpy along the way. It will work itself out, hopefully through negotiations, where nobody wins and nobody loses, but if it goes through arbitration, we'll all survive that too. Some maybe better than others, but that's the nature of arbitration.

Regardless, I believe that 2-3 years from now, if we get this done right, we will all be working for a stronger, more viable company and making more money doing it.

Exactly!!! Now what do we have to do to get GL to stop his mud slinging? Same team GL, dont forget.

 

[michael707767]

Here's an excellent explanation of the numbers:

In the three years before we faced liquidity shortfall (10/1/2002 – 10/1/2005) we had about 2,200 pilots retire. About 1,450 of those pilots would have retired by December 2007 (when the FAA retirement age changed). Of those 750 left, about 250 were on long term disability. Of the 450 left, 100 would not be in the top 33% of our list today. Therefore, you are talking about 350 pilots that early retired that held active flying positions and would be in the top 33% on our list. A significant number but not the “thousands” that the Northwest pilots expect.

Note: Of the remaining 350 pilots some would have been lost to attrition so the actual number would even be a bit smaller.

you know better than to confuse them with the facts.

 

[Fly4hire]

Professional courtesy? Like your unprepared negotiators gave ours? The first thing they asked was "ok, which arbitrator should we use?" That is ridiculous.
Bye Bye--General Lee

Total urban myth - you guys spin more than a top.

The other side is we showed up with 15 and you showed up with 3 and were only prepared to dictate terms, not negotiate - maybe if it was said at all the question was in response to Moak's (are RA Lips moving) ultimatums?

We'll see where this goes, and hopefully it's reasonable for everyone - if we end up in arbitration it's only because Moak refuses to budge off of untenable positions - ones that an arbitrator will likely toss.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I am also Junior but on the DC9, I chose NWA because I could move up quickly with the large amount of retirements upcoming.

MY point is that I shouldn't be penalized for flying the DC9. Senoirity wise I was hired in November, and if you think its fair to place a DL newhire hired after me in front of me just because you can hold Something big thats wrong, we are both junior. I would like to see all the newhires post BK be date of hire, that is fair considering that Delta has many more and NWA has 220.

With that logic, why not give Comair date of hire with the NWA pilots? Really!

Size and pay DO matter. Since you NWA pilots like arbitration so much, look at Arbitrators' rulings and see what they write about the subject.

I'm not too spun up about it. If your side pulls off something like that, I'll humbly submit my job to you and go find another. I never applied to NWA and would not. There are better Corporate jobs out there.

 

[~~~^~~~]

-- ones that an arbitrator will likely toss.

The structure of every arbitration award I can reference is relative seniority by equipment. Isn't that what your own group did to Republic, for 20 years?

 

[~~~^~~~]

That’s why you don’t understand our issues. I don’t think you quite understand why NWA wants DOH and we, DAL, want a relative seniority. I am 95% at DAL, I was hired summer 07, NWA 95% was hired 03/01, I believe. Why should those pilots get a huge bump in company seniority? 95% at one company 95% at the new company. Please explain to me how this system is so unfair?
As far as projected retirements, if NWA could get on paper how many pilots are going to retire they could have a leg to stand on, as of right now, all they have is pilots expected to reach age 60 soon. I guess I don’t understand if they have so many retirements coming up, how come they have displacement bids coming out?

Exactly!

 

[Superpilot92]

I'm not too spun up about it. If your side pulls off something like that, I'll humbly submit my job to you and go find another. I never applied to NWA and would not. There are better Corporate jobs out there.

Come on fins dont be a drama queen like GL. and for your post above ^^, do you believe, you as a 2007 hire at DAL, should be in front of 2001 hires at NWA?