NWA/DAL negotiations update

[GogglesPisano]

New hires are getting the 767 because it sucks. Blame it on resv rules, base, whatever, it sucks. To be junior at DAL on the 767 is not good. Just like being junior on the DC9 sucks.

Just keep telling yourself that. It makes it easier, doesn't it? Just a little, anyway.

 

[p3flteng]

I am a brand new hire at Delta on the 767ER. Just off TOE. Today I am off to Brazil and I am holding a 14 day off line next month blocking 82 hours. Every guy in my class is holding a line. Got my first choice of cities to layover at.
We new hires at JFK love this Airline and have to pinch ourselves to make sure we are not dreaming.
As the General Says we are making big bucks second year!!. First year pays alright also. With international pay etc life is awesome at Delta and I have never heard any JFK FO say any diffrent. By tomorrow I would be on a beach in GRU drowning in the sights.
Jambro you would love Delta, I know Northwest is probabely a nice Airline but so is Delta. we have being treated great by everyone.[/quote]

I believe a major reason that you can hold 76 intl is because of the mass exodus of retirements Delta has already experienced. I am also Junior but on the DC9, I chose NWA because I could move up quickly with the large amount of retirements upcoming.

MY point is that I shouldn't be penalized for flying the DC9. Senoirity wise I was hired in November, and if you think its fair to place a DL newhire hired after me in front of me just because you can hold Something big thats wrong, we are both junior. I would like to see all the newhires post BK be date of hire, that is fair considering that Delta has many more and NWA has 220. By the time this gets to arbitration the DC9-30's will already of been parked(by Sept), so that shouldn't be an issue as we have already absorbed this shrinkage. I was hired in Nov and have about 180 guys below me at NWA, I am OK with a little loss, but to shove me on the bottom just because of the DC9 is crap.

Either way I will live with the arbitrators ruling, hope to keep my job with oil at 130, and not be one of those piss and moaning gripers we all see occasionally...I refuse to be miserable.

 

[Speedbird34]

I am a brand new hire at Delta on the 767ER. Just off TOE. Today I am off to Brazil and I am holding a 14 day off line next month blocking 82 hours. Every guy in my class is holding a line. Got my first choice of cities to layover at.
We new hires at JFK love this Airline and have to pinch ourselves to make sure we are not dreaming.
As the General Says we are making big bucks second year!!. First year pays alright also. With international pay etc life is awesome at Delta and I have never heard any JFK FO say any diffrent. By tomorrow I would be on a beach in GRU drowning in the sights.
Jambro you would love Delta, I know Northwest is probabely a nice Airline but so is Delta. we have being treated great by everyone.

I believe a major reason that you can hold 76 intl is because of the mass exodus of retirements Delta has already experienced. I am also Junior but on the DC9, I chose NWA because I could move up quickly with the large amount of retirements upcoming.

MY point is that I shouldn't be penalized for flying the DC9. Senoirity wise I was hired in November, and if you think its fair to place a DL newhire hired after me in front of me just because you can hold Something big thats wrong, we are both junior. I would like to see all the newhires post BK be date of hire, that is fair considering that Delta has many more and NWA has 220. By the time this gets to arbitration the DC9-30's will already of been parked(by Sept), so that shouldn't be an issue as we have already absorbed this shrinkage. I was hired in Nov and have about 180 guys below me at NWA, I am OK with a little loss, but to shove me on the bottom just because of the DC9 is crap.

Either way I will live with the arbitrators ruling, hope to keep my job with oil at 130, and not be one of those piss and moaning gripers we all see occasionally...I refuse to be miserable.[/quote]

I am hopeful that it all works out to be fair to all of us. Personally It can not get better for me after a merger. I most likely may get a pay cut, end up on reserve, maybe even get displaced etc.
It is out of my hands, I came to Delta because the future looked bright, I had other options and I choose Delta. Now I am uncertain of the future. But we are all on for the ride. Just hope for the best, try not to stress out and there exist other jobs in the world if we get laid off. Cheers.

 

[jetjockey#1]

Well, don't work for either airline, but just to throw my $0.02 in; that is why I just still believe the easiest way to do any integration is simply, DOH (or rather LOS, length of service, doh adjusted for furlough, leaves, etc.) and just protect equip. positions/bases, pre-merger progression with 'fences'

Not permanent fences, and after the fences come down, enough movement has happened (retirements, etc), and everybody just ends up with whatever their 'seniority' holds, Capt. F/O, Int'l, widebody, etc.

If it was done that way with DL/NWA, entire SLI could be done in a few days, only thing that would take some debate is deciding on the 'fences' (c&s), conditions & restrictions, then DONE.

Still seems like the easiest way to do things, and probably why EVERY other union in this country (and the World for that matter), do it that way. Except pilots in this country???

Again, for what its worth.

PD

That’s why you don’t understand our issues. I don’t think you quite understand why NWA wants DOH and we, DAL, want a relative seniority. I am 95% at DAL, I was hired summer 07, NWA 95% was hired 03/01, I believe. Why should those pilots get a huge bump in company seniority? 95% at one company 95% at the new company. Please explain to me how this system is so unfair?
As far as projected retirements, if NWA could get on paper how many pilots are going to retire they could have a leg to stand on, as of right now, all they have is pilots expected to reach age 60 soon. I guess I don’t understand if they have so many retirements coming up, how come they have displacement bids coming out?
Anyway, seniority is a very touchy subject, and people outside looking in don’t quite understand it.

 

[Superpilot92]

That’s why you don’t understand our issues. I don’t think you quite understand why NWA wants DOH and we, DAL, want a relative seniority. I am 95% at DAL, I was hired summer 07, NWA 95% was hired 03/01, I believe. Why should those pilots get a huge bump in company seniority? 95% at one company 95% at the new company. Please explain to me how this system is so unfair?
As far as projected retirements, if NWA could get on paper how many pilots are going to retire they could have a leg to stand on, as of right now, all they have is pilots expected to reach age 60 soon. I guess I don’t understand if they have so many retirements coming up, how come they have displacement bids coming out?
Anyway, seniority is a very touchy subject, and people outside looking in don’t quite understand it.

What about relative seniority for everyone hired prior to 9/11 and DOH afterwards? That seems reasonable and i am a post 9/11 NWA guy.

 

[Superpilot92]

I believe a major reason that you can hold 76 intl is because of the mass exodus of retirements Delta has already experienced. I am also Junior but on the DC9, I chose NWA because I could move up quickly with the large amount of retirements upcoming.

MY point is that I shouldn't be penalized for flying the DC9. Seniority wise I was hired in November, and if you think its fair to place a DL newhire hired after me in front of me just because you can hold Something big thats wrong, we are both junior. I would like to see all the newhires post BK be date of hire, that is fair considering that Delta has many more and NWA has 220. By the time this gets to arbitration the DC9-30's will already of been parked(by Sept), so that shouldn't be an issue as we have already absorbed this shrinkage. I was hired in Nov and have about 180 guys below me at NWA, I am OK with a little loss, but to shove me on the bottom just because of the DC9 is crap.

Either way I will live with the arbitrators ruling, hope to keep my job with oil at 130, and not be one of those piss and moaning gripers we all see occasionally...I refuse to be miserable.

I am hopeful that it all works out to be fair to all of us. Personally It can not get better for me after a merger. I most likely may get a pay cut, end up on reserve, maybe even get displaced etc.
It is out of my hands, I came to Delta because the future looked bright, I had other options and I choose Delta. Now I am uncertain of the future. But we are all on for the ride. Just hope for the best, try not to stress out and there exist other jobs in the world if we get laid off. Cheers.

I think our future still looks bright but in the near term it might seem a bit bumpy. From what i am hearing if this is done properly then none of us should be out looking for a job. Lets just hope fuel at least levels off, that is the big outlying factor. Good luck and stay positive :beer:

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

What about relative seniority for everyone hired prior to 9/11 and DOH afterwards? That seems reasonable and i am a post 9/11 NWA guy.

Sure doesn't sound reasonable. I'm a post 9/11 guy at DAL and am around 90% in the company and 87% in my category-on the lineholder bubble in my category which is one of the most senior that newbies can hold. NWA has only hired 230 or so while DAL has hired 700. That is a pretty major difference in % of bidding.

 

[General Lee]

I am a brand new hire at Delta on the 767ER. Just off TOE. Today I am off to Brazil and I am holding a 14 day off line next month blocking 82 hours. Every guy in my class is holding a line. Got my first choice of cities to layover at.
We new hires at JFK love this Airline and have to pinch ourselves to make sure we are not dreaming.
As the General Says we are making big bucks second year!!. First year pays alright also. With international pay etc life is awesome at Delta and I have never heard any JFK FO say any diffrent. By tomorrow I would be on a beach in GRU drowning in the sights.
Jambro you would love Delta, I know Northwest is probabely a nice Airline but so is Delta. we have being treated great by everyone.

I believe a major reason that you can hold 76 intl is because of the mass exodus of retirements Delta has already experienced. I am also Junior but on the DC9, I chose NWA because I could move up quickly with the large amount of retirements upcoming.

MY point is that I shouldn't be penalized for flying the DC9. Senoirity wise I was hired in November, and if you think its fair to place a DL newhire hired after me in front of me just because you can hold Something big thats wrong, we are both junior. I would like to see all the newhires post BK be date of hire, that is fair considering that Delta has many more and NWA has 220. By the time this gets to arbitration the DC9-30's will already of been parked(by Sept), so that shouldn't be an issue as we have already absorbed this shrinkage. I was hired in Nov and have about 180 guys below me at NWA, I am OK with a little loss, but to shove me on the bottom just because of the DC9 is crap.

Either way I will live with the arbitrators ruling, hope to keep my job with oil at 130, and not be one of those piss and moaning gripers we all see occasionally...I refuse to be miserable.[/quote]

Wait, wait, you chose NWA because of the upcoming mass retirements? Come on! Ridiculous statement here, read to you by the NWA MEC people..... You are trying to add your only power point argument that really was blown away by age 65. Come on now.

Besides, your only initial options at NWA were the DC9 or the FE panel on the old whale. So, again, you chose NWA so you could EVENTUALLY move up fast, to maybe a widebody that you could have initially held at Delta, right? Is that right?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Superpilot92]

Sure doesn't sound reasonable. I'm a post 9/11 guy at DAL and am around 90% in the company and 87% in my category-on the lineholder bubble in my category which is one of the most senior that newbies can hold. NWA has only hired 230 or so while DAL has hired 700. That is a pretty major difference in % of bidding.

I think we can agree that there are many factors that go into these discussions and for that reason i think it will probably go to arbitration. Both sides see things differently. You are in your position because of a number of factors, mainly because of the mass exodus of pilots from DAL when giving away the DAL pensions. NWA would also be in that position IF the NWA pilots decided to go that route but they instead chose to keep theirs meaning more of the senior people stayed. IF that would have happened at NWA I as a 2008 hire could hold DC9 capt if you took a 1000+ off the top. Again different factors. The lists look alot different and it will be interesting to see how it plays out. Do you really think you should, as a 2007 hire at DAL, be ahead of 2001 and earlier NWA pilots? Would you be upset if an arbitrator put me, as a 2008 hire NWA pilot in front of you? Its easy to be jaded about all this stuff but whats fair to you or I may not be fair to someone else. We shall see how it plays out. Either way lets how its close to "Fair"

 

[jayme]

Wait, wait, you chose NWA because of the upcoming mass retirements? Come on! Ridiculous statement here, read to you by the NWA MEC people..... You are trying to add your only power point argument that really was blown away by age 65. Come on now.

Bye Bye--General Lee

How does 65 change anything? Your guys get to retire at 65, too, pushing upgrades there back 5 years as well. RA65 doesn't just affect NWA.

 

[Superpilot92]

Wait, wait, you chose NWA because of the upcoming mass retirements? Come on! Ridiculous statement here, read to you by the NWA MEC people..... You are trying to add your only power point argument that really was blown away by age 65. Come on now.

Besides, your only initial options at NWA were the DC9 or the FE panel on the old whale. So, again, you chose NWA so you could EVENTUALLY move up fast, to maybe a widebody that you could have initially held at Delta, right? Is that right?


Bye Bye--General Lee

And today on "General Lee and the restless", we have the same old drama and soap opera issues as yesterday and everyday before that.

Take a deep breath GL your going off the deep end again. Relax :beer:

 

[Superpilot92]

How does 65 change anything? Your guys get to retire at 65, too, pushing upgrades there back 5 years as well. RA65 doesn't just affect NWA.

Careful with logic!!! You know what that does to most people on FI?

 

[p3flteng]

Wait, wait, you chose NWA because of the upcoming mass retirements? Come on! Ridiculous statement here, read to you by the NWA MEC people..... You are trying to add your only power point argument that really was blown away by age 65. Come on now.

Besides, your only initial options at NWA were the DC9 or the FE panel on the old whale. So, again, you chose NWA so you could EVENTUALLY move up fast, to maybe a widebody that you could have initially held at Delta, right? Is that right?


Bye Bye--General Lee

I could hold the Airbus if I wanted to, I CHOOSE not to for my own reasons. I am not spouting MEC Powerpoints, I Chose NWA because of the beginning of a hiring wave, in on the ground floor, and lots of upcoming retirements. Don't presume to judge me, I left a International 767 Job making 40 grand more to work at NWA. I don't want to be put ahead of ANYONE who was hired before me...its just not right. I would hope for the same professional courtesy and respect from Delta.

Can you say the same?

 

[General Lee]

What about relative seniority for everyone hired prior to 9/11 and DOH afterwards? That seems reasonable and i am a post 9/11 NWA guy.

Of course you would like that. Every time you hear about the possibility of us hiring again, it makes you cringe. I can understand that. What happened over at USAir and their relative seniority? The bottom guy at USAir had 17 years with the company. I bet he wished he had DOH. That is not how it worked out, and his own company is the one to blame, not the America West guys. If NWA is stopping hiring, that is not our fault. Every newhire here helps with my own eventual relative seniority.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I could hold the Airbus if I wanted to, I CHOOSE not to for my own reasons. I am not spouting MEC Powerpoints, I Chose NWA because of the beginning of a hiring wave, in on the ground floor, and lots of upcoming retirements. Don't presume to judge me, I left a International 767 Job making 40 grand more to work at NWA. I don't want to be put ahead of ANYONE who was hired before me...its just not right. I would hope for the same professional courtesy and respect from Delta.

Can you say the same?

Professional courtesy? Like your unprepared negotiators gave ours? The first thing they asked was "ok, which arbitrator should we use?" That is ridiculous.

Look, I think we will make a great combo eventually, but you have to understand that we do bring a lot to the table---more widebodies, better pay, better bases. As far as who goes in front of who---well, your guys didn't want to negotiate. Looking at the Nicelau award, it looks like relative seniority may happen again. If you are in the bottom 12%, you will probably be in the bottom 12% of the new list. That seems fair.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FDJ2]

I believe a major reason that you can hold 76 intl is because of the mass exodus of retirements Delta has already experienced. I am also Junior but on the DC9, I chose NWA because I could move up quickly with the large amount of retirements upcoming.

That's a common myth. Early retirements ended 3 years ago, and most of those who early retired would have retired by now regardless. Also many of the early retirees were on disability. The impact of the early retirements on the DAL list isn't as big as some believe.

Here's an excellent explanation of the numbers:

In the three years before we faced liquidity shortfall (10/1/2002 – 10/1/2005) we had about 2,200 pilots retire. About 1,450 of those pilots would have retired by December 2007 (when the FAA retirement age changed). Of those 750 left, about 250 were on long term disability. Of the 450 left, 100 would not be in the top 33% of our list today. Therefore, you are talking about 350 pilots that early retired that held active flying positions and would be in the top 33% on our list. A significant number but not the “thousands” that the Northwest pilots expect.

Note: Of the remaining 350 pilots some would have been lost to attrition so the actual number would even be a bit smaller.

The upward mobility at DAL is driven by the shift to international flying of the 767-300 fleet, 767-400 fleet the acquisition of 17 B757-200ERs, the delivery of 3 B777-200LRs and the scheduled delivery of 6 more B777-200LRs in the next 10 months. Not early retirements 3-6 years ago.

Hopefully we will have a negotiated SLI, if not, it will be a more drawn out and divisive process. However, if what you can hold is DC-9 F/O and not anything bigger, than at the end of the process that's all you'll be able to hold. Your DOH is not relevant other than to determine your premerger spot on the NWA list.

 

[p3flteng]

Professional courtesy? Like your unprepared negotiators gave ours? The first thing they asked was "ok, which arbitrator should we use?" That is ridiculous.

Look, I think we will make a great combo eventually, but you have to understand that we do bring a lot to the table---more widebodies, better pay, better bases. As far as who goes in front of who---well, your guys didn't want to negotiate. Looking at the Nicelau award, it looks like relative seniority may happen again. If you are in the bottom 12%, you will probably be in the bottom 12% of the new list. That seems fair.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I am beyond pointing fingers with the he said she said...its just not productive. We both bring much to the table, and like I said, I will put a smile on and go to work(if possible) no matter what. Lets hope that some progress has been made and the MEC's TOGETHER get a contract with Delta Management. Then the SLI will hopefully be right around the corner.

Remember, one can only sling so much sheet before you get some on yourself.

 

[FDJ2]

I think our future still looks bright but in the near term it might seem a bit bumpy. From what i am hearing if this is done properly then none of us should be out looking for a job. Lets just hope fuel at least levels off, that is the big outlying factor. Good luck and stay positive :beer:

That's the right attitude to have. This process will get bumpy along the way. It will work itself out, hopefully through negotiations, where nobody wins and nobody loses, but if it goes through arbitration, we'll all survive that too. Some maybe better than others, but that's the nature of arbitration.

Regardless, I believe that 2-3 years from now, if we get this done right, we will all be working for a stronger, more viable company and making more money doing it.

 

[Superpilot92]

That's the right attitude to have. This process will get bumpy along the way. It will work itself out, hopefully through negotiations, where nobody wins and nobody loses, but if it goes through arbitration, we'll all survive that too. Some maybe better than others, but that's the nature of arbitration.

Regardless, I believe that 2-3 years from now, if we get this done right, we will all be working for a stronger, more viable company and making more money doing it.

Exactly!!! Now what do we have to do to get GL to stop his mud slinging? Same team GL, dont forget.

 

[michael707767]

Here's an excellent explanation of the numbers:

In the three years before we faced liquidity shortfall (10/1/2002 – 10/1/2005) we had about 2,200 pilots retire. About 1,450 of those pilots would have retired by December 2007 (when the FAA retirement age changed). Of those 750 left, about 250 were on long term disability. Of the 450 left, 100 would not be in the top 33% of our list today. Therefore, you are talking about 350 pilots that early retired that held active flying positions and would be in the top 33% on our list. A significant number but not the “thousands” that the Northwest pilots expect.

Note: Of the remaining 350 pilots some would have been lost to attrition so the actual number would even be a bit smaller.

you know better than to confuse them with the facts.