NWA/DAL negotiations update

[jayme]

787 delaysuke:

lubbock layovers uke:

Saudia md90s uke:

parked dc-9/742s uke:

more widebodies uke:

lutefisk uke:

For the love of God, just STFU, will you?

 

[General Lee]

787 delaysuke:

lubbock layovers uke:

Saudia md90s uke:

parked dc-9/742s uke:

more widebodies uke:

lutefisk uke:

For the love of God, just STFU, will you?

Ummmm, NO. You forgot RJs clogging up the system and costing us money. At least you are on the "Bro." Now there's a money maker----to Sun Valley at least.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

You proposed 1000 phantom DAL pilots, yet to be hired, to be integrated with our bottom guys? Please, are you kidding?

Can we just get this fact right?

The ratio proposal with dynamic seniority was a NWA Comm position, NOT A DAL POSITION.

The DAL position was relative seniority. The NWA countered with ratios and dymanic seniority. The fact that 1,000 NWA pilots fell in a ratio at the bottom was a NWA position, which was accepted by the Delta pilots, then recinded by the NWA negotiators (who came to the table not fully understanding the effect of the ratios invented to correct for the flaws of dynamic seniority.)

 

[320AV8R]

You talked to Lee Moak on the phone? Wow, sounds like he cares---he actually stopped and talked to you.

Yes I talked to him.

And why are there only 3 days of talks in June? Delta---management---did that, not Lee Moak.

Interesting. Both sides hacked out an entire contract in under 3 weeks in Feb, & now it's gonna take forever to iron out a few details? The word we're getting is HARMONIZATION---- we'll be pahsed in over a long period to LOA 19 levels. Quite a non-starter.

And about the 1000 phantom DL pilots, it looks like we actually may hire that many before the SLI is done---so they really aren't "phantom."

Very doubtful, with Ed B saying DAL domestic capacity will shrink by over ten percent in the upcoming months. However, the fact remains that the SLI deals with pilots on the property NOW, not some future proposal. You did this trick with the Pan Am guys.

Eventually it will come down to the same conclusion, except there will be less NWA planes and more DL planes flying.

Be careful what you wish for. If we're kept at our present rates & you get your raises.....where do you think RA would add the flying? The more efficient side, or the bloated costly side?

 

[dbrownie]

The word we're getting is HARMONIZATION---- we'll be phased in over a long period to LOA 19 levels. Quite a non-starter.

320;

You got that right! a "non-starter"

I am sure everyone will agree to that.....

DB

 

[JAM-BRO]

You have no clue what you are talking about. Their contract is better than ours????? Really. They saved their pension for their senior guys, and lost most of everything else. Their rules are attrocious, and their pay is substandard, but they kept a frozen pension. Their scope is a bit better, but they are hanging on to old planes that really doesn't help their company anyway.

I guess this statement makes you an expert on the NWA contract... Atrocious work rules???? Since you are so well versed in our contract, tell us where yours is SO MUCH BETTER... You probably won't find many... Our rules are very much alike. Coincidence???? Your guess is as good as mine. A few things are better on your contract. A few things are better on ours. Ours is better in SCOPE... Again, DALPA gave Scope up in desperation to get LOA19...

Lastly Gen, If I were you, I would not be so proud about the ATROUCIOUS contract you have... In reality, it sucks as much as ours. I know it. You on the other hand, have had so much Kool-Aid it has made you Kool-Aid Hypoxic.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

The way these guys act on here and the alpa natl. board that they are working for a great company. They work for a bankrupt failing organization like every other pax in this country. RA knows that a stand alone delta will be back in bankruptcy in a few years. I hate to tell you deltoids this but you are not working for a longterm solvent company like fedex or ups. Alone you will be ch11 again soon, and merged we probably will be also if there are not some massive drawdowns in capacity stateside(a big liqudation or two) Think lcc,ual,aa or a couple of the smaller ones such as jb&airtran.

I guess this statement makes you an expert on the NWA contract... Atrocious work rules???? Since you are so well versed in our contract, tell us where yours is SO MUCH BETTER... You probably won't find many... Our rules are very much alike. Coincidence???? Your guess is as good as mine. A few things are better on your contract. A few things are better on ours. Ours is better in SCOPE... Again, DALPA gave Scope up in desperation to get LOA19...

Lastly Gen, If I were you, I would not be so proud about the ATROUCIOUS contract you have... In reality, it sucks as much as ours. I know it. You on the other hand, have had so much Kool-Aid it has made you Kool-Aid Hypoxic.

 

[General Lee]

The way these guys act on here and the alpa natl. board that they are working for a great company. They work for a bankrupt failing organization like every other pax in this country. RA knows that a stand alone delta will be back in bankruptcy in a few years. I hate to tell you deltoids this but you are not working for a longterm solvent company like fedex or ups. Alone you will be ch11 again soon, and merged we probably will be also if there are not some massive drawdowns in capacity stateside(a big liqudation or two) Think lcc,ual,aa or a couple of the smaller ones such as jb&airtran.

The combination of two post BK airlines is any management member's dream come true. We both went through the process, got cleaned up best we could (compared to other airlines), and we are now getting ready to be joined. The thing is, when we went through the process is important. If we went BK now, we might not get the DIP financing. We did it before, and now we are both ready to compete with high oil---compared to AA which still has high priced pensions, high wages (comparitively), and high leases on thier planes and facilities. We want to have the ability to make it through these tough times (arguably the toughest in Airline history), and then thrive when others have fallen. That's the deal here. Hopefully we will make it through and be a survivor. Don't start singing Beyonce's "Survivor" song now......


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Superpilot92]

If DALALPA really wants whats best for both groups like some of the DAL guys say then i ask this question. Do you think DALALPA would stand up to DAL mgmt if they try and drag this out? Do you think DALALPA will stand with NWALAPA if DAL mgmt wants to hold NWA pilots back over time? I hope so. That will be where DALALPA to show what their real intentions are. I hope so. We shall see. NWALPA and Pilots wont sit back and let it happen anyway but i has the questions for you DAL guys.

 

[General Lee]

I guess this statement makes you an expert on the NWA contract... Atrocious work rules???? Since you are so well versed in our contract, tell us where yours is SO MUCH BETTER... You probably won't find many... Our rules are very much alike. Coincidence???? Your guess is as good as mine. A few things are better on your contract. A few things are better on ours. Ours is better in SCOPE... Again, DALPA gave Scope up in desperation to get LOA19...

Lastly Gen, If I were you, I would not be so proud about the ATROUCIOUS contract you have... In reality, it sucks as much as ours. I know it. You on the other hand, have had so much Kool-Aid it has made you Kool-Aid Hypoxic.

Granted, your scope rules are better than ours, but plenty of RJs are being parked on our side as we speak (we are trying to dump Mesa too). Other than that, your rules are worse. Do you have 5 day trips on the domestic side? That suks. We don't. We have 6 day trips on the INTL side (along with 2 and 3 days), with a few close to 40 hours. That's nice. We also have sick time issues, but they have been addressed in LOA19. Can you please give me some issues that you don't like? I won't add your pay issues in this discussion, which are pretty bad.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

If DALALPA really wants whats best for both groups like some of the DAL guys say then i ask this question. Do you think DALALPA would stand up to DAL mgmt if they try and drag this out? Do you think DALALPA will stand with NWALAPA if DAL mgmt wants to hold NWA pilots back over time? I hope so. That will be where DALALPA to show what their real intentions are. I hope so. We shall see. NWALPA and Pilots wont sit back and let it happen anyway but i has the questions for you DAL guys.

I don't really know, but what if WORKING with Management for a common goal (getting through this tough time while increasing our pay and rules a bit) is a good thing? You guys are sooooo against everything management does, because you are used to being screwed. Is that drinking kool aid, or just making sure we survive with better pay etc. You guys don't trust ANYONE. I don't think RA or Ed Bastain will just give us anything for free, but reaching an agreement while knowing what is going on around you isn't a bad thing. Your MEC members are still trying to get prepared, and the plane has already left the gate. This process is very tough normally, and it gets worse with higher gas. But hey, if you want us to "stand up to DL Management" for some reason, I guess we can do it for you.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[imacdog]

General Lee you are talking as if Delta management didn't just pound your pilot group in bankruptcy.

"We will NOT give up on scope", remember that one? haha

 

[General Lee]

General Lee you are talking as if Delta management didn't just pound your pilot group in bankruptcy.

"We will NOT give up on scope", remember that one? haha

BK was not fun, no it wasn't. A lot of that will not be forgotten. But, now add in super high oil. What should we demand back, right now? We want all of our pensions back, right now! (not going to get it) We want $300 an hour back for 777 Captain. (not going to get it) We want to park all of those RJs we allowed before (it is starting, but for economic reasons, not because of us).

Yes, we did say "we will not give up on scope." Most people in BK say things like "we will not give up on....." and then a BK judge helps with your decision. If we weren't in BK, do you think we would have just given it away? Also, they wanted even larger RJs, and NWA was the one who had 76 seaters before us. That seemed like a better number to stop at, rather than the 86 seats they wanted. (Mesa's CR9s) A BK judge can help you make your decsion, and you should know that.

LOA19 started to get some of that back. Also, some of our management team during that era is gone, (not Ed Bastain though), and we are more supportive of RA because he is a lot better than Leo Mullin or even Jerry Grinstein. Jerry was the hatchet man, but that is normal in BK. We currently think RA is fair, and hopefully that will remain. You never know though what can happen in the future.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Superpilot92]

I don't really know, but what if WORKING with Management for a common goal (getting through this tough time while increasing our pay and rules a bit) is a good thing? You guys are sooooo against everything management does, because you are used to being screwed. Is that drinking kool aid, or just making sure we survive with better pay etc. You guys don't trust ANYONE. I don't think RA or Ed Bastain will just give us anything for free, but reaching an agreement while knowing what is going on around you isn't a bad thing. Your MEC members are still trying to get prepared, and the plane has already left the gate. This process is very tough normally, and it gets worse with higher gas. But hey, if you want us to "stand up to DL Management" for some reason, I guess we can do it for you.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

You didnt really answer anything i asked. Both MECs had a joint contract pretty much ready in feb, so i am asking you if NWALPA and DALALPA worked out a joint contract TOGETHER and presented it to DAL MGMT but DAL MGMT starts dragging their feet and saying NWA will be brought up over time what would the DALAPA stance be? That will show what the DALALPAs stance really is. IF we have a JOINT contract figured out between OUR MECS then nothing should keep DALALPA from standing side by side with us at NWA.

There will be massive problems IF DALALPA and DAL MGT tries to leave the NWA pilots in the dust. So lets hope that doesnt happen.

 

[DTW320]

Granted, your scope rules are better than ours, but plenty of RJs are being parked on our side as we speak (we are trying to dump Mesa too). Other than that, your rules are worse. Do you have 5 day trips on the domestic side? That suks. We don't. We have 6 day trips on the INTL side (along with 2 and 3 days), with a few close to 40 hours. That's nice. We also have sick time issues, but they have been addressed in LOA19. Can you please give me some issues that you don't like? I won't add your pay issues in this discussion, which are pretty bad.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Yes, we have 5 day domestic trips. I just did one for 31.5 hours. I commute.....for now....and it's FANTASTIC to get the flying done in as few commutes as possible. In June I have 3 fully commutable trips and 17 days off. Wow, our work rules suck! If I did 3 day trips like DL I'd spend as much time commuting as flying. That sucks. Domestic 3 days for a commuter? That sucks. You guys must really enjoy driving to the airport in ATL many times per month.

That sucks.

I hear DAL doesn't have BSTG, ie. trip guarantee like NWA.

That sucks.

I hear that if you end up over 80 hours of credit(flying/training/vacation/standby pay/reporting pay) at DAL you still get paid straight 1x pay unless you jumped through hoops with 1 days notice on a greenslip.

That sucks.

I hear your guarantees are 65 line/70 reserve.

That sucks.

I hear you have contract instructors in the sim and that you guys still use lots of memory items and such.

That sucks.

I hear DAL has no ASAP program (NWA's "NASAP")with the feds and no FOQA program.

That sucks.

I hear your sick leave is a joke. We have a majority of pilots whose accruals would allow them to be off for a year or longer with full pay. You guys get, what 240 hours every 3 years? Going to 300? That sucks. But you get to buy insurance from the company to pay you more if you use up your 250 hours?

That sucks.

I hear that for every new mainline aircraft DAL gets, your feeders can get 3 76-seaters.

That sucks.

You do get about 10% more pay per hour than we do on comparable equipment, except your 767, which pays 10% more than our 757 even though it's a lot bigger.

I hear that your MEC meetings consist mainly of calling each other by their military call sign.

That's Stupid.

Oh yeah, your senior guys a few years ago ran off with your A-plan and left you with nothing...unless it's time, again, for you guys to say that your claim sale made everyone whole for that. Is that in this months talking points? I'm wasn't sure.

That sucks.

 

[320AV8R]

..... if NWALPA and DALALPA worked out a joint contract TOGETHER and presented it to DAL MGMT but DAL MGMT starts dragging their feet and saying NWA will be brought up over time what would the DALAPA stance be?

WE (both groups) HAD a JOINT CONTRACT in Feb. If DALPA was really interested in UNITY, they would have solved the outstanding issues AT THAT TIME, instead of eating out of Anderson's hand; leaving us in the dust.

DALPA's credibility is gone WRT taking a stand against DAL Mgmt now; they've already made their bed with LOA 19.

The "feet dragging" (aka DELAY TACTICS) have already begun. Note the enourmous support we don't have from Lee & the DALPA boys.

The NWA pilots are on their own. We're big boys, we'll be fine.

 

[PuffDriver]

WE (both groups) HAD a JOINT CONTRACT in Feb. If DALPA was really interested in UNITY, they would have solved the outstanding issues AT THAT TIME, instead of eating out of Anderson's hand; leaving us in the dust.

DALPA's credibility is gone WRT taking a stand against DAL Mgmt now; they've already made their bed with LOA 19.

The "feet dragging" (aka DELAY TACTICS) have already begun. Note the enourmous support we don't have from Lee & the DALPA boys.

The NWA pilots are on their own. We're big boys, we'll be fine.

Well, then I think that the answer is obvious. Tank the deal. You have the power, right? Nope. It's going through. If you don't come around, there will be raises for only Delta pilots in 2009. If you don't come around, there will be layoffs at NWA, compass will be shut down, and arbitration will be the result, and the result will not be pretty.

Stall away, or better yet, do everything that you can to tank the deal. It will only benefit the Delta pilots.

Yeah, we're big boys, except when it comes to whining on an anonymous message board.:crying:

 

[Superpilot92]

Well, then I think that the answer is obvious. Tank the deal. You have the power, right? Nope. It's going through. If you don't come around, there will be raises for only Delta pilots in 2009. If you don't come around, there will be layoffs at NWA, compass will be shut down, and arbitration will be the result, and the result will not be pretty.

Stall away, or better yet, do everything that you can to tank the deal. It will only benefit the Delta pilots.

Yeah, we're big boys, except when it comes to whining on an anonymous message board.:crying:

Your post is exactly what my question was fishing for. DALALPA and SOME of you DAL guys act like its acceptable to strongarm us. If we dont "agree" then you state things will be bad for us at NWA. Your mentality is exactly why SOME of the NWA guys are skeptical of DALALPA and DAL Mgmts s intentions. I give you guys the benefit of the doubt but take a step back and read what you wrote and tell me if the shoe was on the other foot, what would you think. Serious answer please.

 

[JAM-BRO]

Well, then I think that the answer is obvious. Tank the deal. You have the power, right? Nope. It's going through. If you don't come around, there will be raises for only Delta pilots in 2009. If you don't come around, there will be layoffs at NWA, compass will be shut down, and arbitration will be the result, and the result will not be pretty.

Stall away, or better yet, do everything that you can to tank the deal. It will only benefit the Delta pilots.

Yeah, we're big boys, except when it comes to whining on an anonymous message board.:crying:

Puff

Let me make it CRYSTAL for you... Our scope has restriction too. Unless there is a joint contract AND an SLI, NO ONE BUT NWA PILOTS touch our planes or routes... So yes, you get your pay raise but it's a sinking ship if we are not brought on board soon... Parking planes right now is an issue of gas, not the merger. Furloughs(Hopefully not) can happen on either side.

I think it behooves your side to get our side on the boat... Join us and start rowing....

 

[General Lee]

Yes, we have 5 day domestic trips. I just did one for 31.5 hours. I commute.....for now....and it's FANTASTIC to get the flying done in as few commutes as possible. In June I have 3 fully commutable trips and 17 days off. Wow, our work rules suck! If I did 3 day trips like DL I'd spend as much time commuting as flying. That sucks. Domestic 3 days for a commuter? That sucks. You guys must really enjoy driving to the airport in ATL many times per month.

That sucks. 31 hours in 5 days? Is that legal? Doesn't sound like it. I need to call the FAA....

I hear DAL doesn't have BSTG, ie. trip guarantee like NWA.

That sucks. Trip guarantee? Of course we do. That is stupid on your part.

I hear that if you end up over 80 hours of credit(flying/training/vacation/standby pay/reporting pay) at DAL you still get paid straight 1x pay unless you jumped through hoops with 1 days notice on a greenslip.

That sucks. A lot of people don't want to fly that much. You have to because your pay rates are weak. Our reserves can do "rolling thunder" which can give them 150 or more hours of pay with only 9-10 days of flying by flying on their days off and getting other days off on the days they were scheduled to be on reserve. That is nice. I know an FO that got 180 hours of pay for 12 days work last Summer.(in one month)

I hear your guarantees are 65 line/70 reserve.

That sucks. A 3rd year pilot can hold 777 FO. At 65 hours for a line or 70 hours for reserve, he still makes more than a 10 year guy on most of your equipment, and he does less. That is good.

I hear you have contract instructors in the sim and that you guys still use lots of memory items and such.

That sucks. You will too. It's coming. The guys who give checkrides are line pilots, though.

I hear DAL has no ASAP program (NWA's "NASAP")with the feds and no FOQA program.

That sucks. Again, you will lose the NASAP. We did, and the Nasa forms are again "in."

I hear your sick leave is a joke. We have a majority of pilots whose accruals would allow them to be off for a year or longer with full pay. You guys get, what 240 hours every 3 years? Going to 300? That sucks. But you get to buy insurance from the company to pay you more if you use up your 250 hours?

That sucks. That all changes with LOA19. Maybe again it will change with our new joint contract.

I hear that for every new mainline aircraft DAL gets, your feeders can get 3 76-seaters.

That sucks. That is correct, although we are losing 50 seaters at a faster rate. Hey, you were the ones who started the "76 seat" rage...

You do get about 10% more pay per hour than we do on comparable equipment, except your 767, which pays 10% more than our 757 even though it's a lot bigger. Your pay is terrible. How much does a 12 year DC9 FO make? Less than a year 2 or 3 757/767 FO, and we have a lot more high paying jobs. Really, you have to fly well over 80 hours a month to try to make up.

I hear that your MEC meetings consist mainly of calling each other by their military call sign.

That's Stupid. That is stupid, and probably wrong. You guys yell at each other because you all hate and don't trust each other at your meetings probably. You need 10 observers to go to the bathroom and take a sh%$.

Oh yeah, your senior guys a few years ago ran off with your A-plan and left you with nothing...unless it's time, again, for you guys to say that your claim sale made everyone whole for that. Is that in this months talking points? I'm wasn't sure.

That sucks.

I made an extra $280,000 thanks to BK. I made an additional $70,000 for my pension dump. How did you do for your equity? I heard you threatened a strike and the amount went down in value. Talk about stoopid.

Wow, in reality, a lot of what you said SUCKS. And, it is too bad we are taking you over. Thanks for Asia.

Bye Bye--General Lee