NWA/DAL JPWA highlights

[~~~^~~~]

Actually, what's cooking over there is even wilder than I thought:

Punitive LTD/DR Seniority Accrual Policy.

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Seeks to increase the number of years that a pilot can return with seniority from medical retirement from the current contract parameter of 7 years....[/FONT][/FONT]​

Early Retirement with Permanent Part-Time Flying. [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]The MEC’s unanimous action assigned the proposal to the Negotiating Committee,R&I Committee, and Merger Committee .... [/FONT][/FONT]​

This isn't part of the recent LOA, but it is interesting.

 

[General Lee]

I guess we, DAL pilots, should get a pension but not you guys, so we are brought up to your level....

Yeah wait, no that does not make any sense, you are right, you guys deserve a 10% raise and keep your pension, as you should, and DAL deserves a 5% raise and no pension.. I just hope they put at least a 5 year fence around your 744 and DC9s, not wait that would not be fair either, the DC9 fence, off course....

The fact of the matter is NWA is getting the lion share of this contract and it should not be that way. I just hope the SLI goes as favorable to us as this contract is going towards you all.

I don't think there should be different pay scales, rather a larger chunk of equity (one time payment) to the DL side to make both sides feel like they got a windfall, rather than one side. Right now it appears the NWA guys got a large pay raise, some equity, and a frozen pension for the senior. That is where it should be different, a little larger equity piece for the DL guys....


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[JohnDoe]

Actually, what's cooking over there is even wilder than I thought:
This isn't part of the recent LOA, but it is interesting.

First: If this retirement and part-time flying proposal is the same as the one I am thinking about, it was introduced some time ago. Probably 2-3 months ago (if not more, I think it was tabled for a time), and has nothing to do with the other furlough-mitigation proposals just published. If I am not mistaken, the proposal was introduced by a line pilot, not the union. Every single person I have talked/flown with says it is a bad idea. As a matter of fact, a union rep I spoke with said it would "die in committee and never pass." IMHO, it is nothing more than a "land grab" by certain pilots who want to have their cake (retirement) and eat it too (part-time flying). By the way....retirement and part time flying.....Which pilot group was it that did the very same thing some years ago? Hello, pot? This is the kettle.

Second:
You seem to have a conspiracy theory going with this notion of "stacking." You do realize, don't you, that one of the 4 proposals in this furlough-mitigation is an early retirement program (Perp). As in trying to get pilots to LEAVE. As in gone, off of the seniority list, buh-bye. As dtw320 mentioned, another of the proposals is taking 2 week leaves. You're right, a 2 week leave is obviously a c-o-n-spiracy. Hey, I think Fed-ex has it in their contract that with pilots on furlough, monthly max's are reduced. They must be in on it too.

Third:
On a more personnal note: Are you actually trying to say that if Delta was faced with potential furloughs, they wouldn't try some of these or other efforts to offset those furloughs? As someone who was furloughed for almost 5-and-a-half years after 9-11 and facing the possibility of yet another one , I am very glad to see these proposals. If you have a problem with our union (and, possibly even management?!?) taking these steps to prevent furloughs, well, to put it bluntly, stick it where the sun don't shine.

Finally, I have read some Delta guys say if anything, NW would benefit from Delta's staffing formula's and would actually need more pilots. Now that steps are being taken to mitigate furloughs and keep people around, it is some kind of conspiracy??? Which is it?

Rant over.....

 

[JonnyKnoxville]

For those "in the know" what exactly does this above statement mean?

Good question...I think it means Mesaba will merge with Comair and thus the flowthrough would be transferred to a different company. (probably not, but I like to stir the pot)

 

[JoeMerchant]

Good question...I think it means Mesaba will merge with Comair and thus the flowthrough would be transferred to a different company. (probably not, but I like to stir the pot)

....interesting idea....Since CMR didn't sign on to the flowthrough, I don't think you could transfer it to them without their concent.....The plot thickens...

 

[bravodude]

We will get a 5% raise thanks to LOA19, which in this environment isn't that bad. Also, if the DC9s disappear overnight, the NWA guys would go away with it, primarily because our certificates would not be merged into one for up to a year past the actual merger date. There will be no swapping of planes until that happens, as it takes the FAA a while to do things. Also, there will likely be fences, and hopefully one around the DC9, since the NWA guys most likely want one around the 744 also.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I don't know why you are so happy a swa 737 Capt. still makes more then a 747 or 777 capt.

 

[General Lee]

I don't know why you are so happy a swa 737 Capt. still makes more then a 747 or 777 capt.

Hey, when they are profitable, they should be the highest paid 737 pilots in the world. Good for them. If they can keep those wages where they are at, maybe we can use them as proof eventually, when we are more profitable. We are still recovering from our collective BKs, so it will take awhile to get back to where we were. I'd say it is good for them to be higher at this point.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Superpilot92]

Something BOTH sides need to see and pay attention to.

This is from the NWA updates and i though all should see it especially the few DAL guys that think you can do better on your own. FWIW


During this MEC Meeting the MEC received extensive economic and financial analysis briefings by several independent sources. Our MEC Officers worked very hard to ensure our decisions were based on complete and unbiased data. Presentations were made by both the NWA and DAL ALPA E & FA, Blue Wolf Capital Management, and Capt. Steve Zoller (NWA BOD). Although the briefings were confidential, our conclusions are not. A merged NWA/DELTA with immediate synergies is a stronger more competitive (survivable) company than a stand-alone NWA or stand-alone DELTA. A merged NWA/DELTA without immediate synergies is a weaker, less survivable company than a stand-alone NWA or DELTA. This JCBA provides a defined and rapid process for a merger with synergies available from day one. We will avoid the US AIR/American West debacle.

 

[Tref]

The funniest thing about this thread is that the Delta guys actually think NWA mgmt gives a rat's a$$ about how we (NWA) fare on the SLI.

The reason they don't want to furlough is because it will cost them 40 grand for each pilot who flows back to Compass. Then as soon as DCC they will need more pilots and they will have to recall them all because of the different contract.

I'm glad you all think that the NWA MEC is so powerful, but it's pretty tough to get NWA mgmt to do anything they don't want to do anyway. There's no way the recent LOA would've passed if it didn't save NWA a boatload of cash. Which is not necessarily a bad thing, because that will soon be Delta cash once we're all one big happy family.

See, no SLI conspiracy (especially with the PERPs), just business as usually at NWA. Now explain how these Greenslips work again. I might need it to pay for the higher medical insurance premiums.

 

[General Lee]

The funniest thing about this thread is that the Delta guys actually think NWA mgmt gives a rat's a$$ about how we (NWA) fare on the SLI.

The reason they don't want to furlough is because it will cost them 40 grand for each pilot who flows back to Compass. Then as soon as DCC they will need more pilots and they will have to recall them all because of the different contract.

I'm glad you all think that the NWA MEC is so powerful, but it's pretty tough to get NWA mgmt to do anything they don't want to do anyway. There's no way the recent LOA would've passed if it didn't save NWA a boatload of cash. Which is not necessarily a bad thing, because that will soon be Delta cash once we're all one big happy family.

See, no SLI conspiracy (especially with the PERPs), just business as usually at NWA. Now explain how these Greenslips work again. I might need it to pay for the higher medical insurance premiums.

It could take a year after the DCC before the FAA signs off on a combined certificate, so any NWA guy furloughed would go to Compass for a year, and we may have to hire at DL for new airplanes in the meantime. (how would that work with the SLI??)

Greenslips will pay double pay, and you can put your name in the hat for any particular trip, or an open greenslip (with set perameters you put in there) for any open trip that pops up that scheduling cannot cover with reserves. The more senior you are, the more likely you will get the greenslip. If nobody throws in a greenslip, then they have to inverse assign, which also pays double. But, I believe we now have a phone deal that automatically calls people (starting at the bottom moving up) and offers them the trip, and you do NOT have to take it if you don't want to. And, your 15% raise should pay for your medical premiums.....(you might have to dip into your equity also)


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Superpilot92]

NWA isnt overstaffed. I added up the number of required pilots needed at Year End with the reductions and its just under 5000. We have 5200ish pilots now. So if you take out the mgmt positions, voluntary furloughs, LTD, military leaves you can see we arent going to be overstaffed. The only thing that the company is wondering is how many of the older guys are going to Punch out as soon as they see what they can milk out of this. Also if NWA planes are brought up to anything that resembles the DAL staffing model we will be SHORT pilots quick. Hypothetically if we ever got overstaffed by a little NWA doesnt want the cost associated with flowbacks when they know things are going to be changing quickly. Relax with the mythical "NWA overstaffing"

 

[Fly4hire]

It could take a year after the DCC before the FAA signs off on a combined certificate, so any NWA guy furloughed would go to Compass for a year, and we may have to hire at DL for new airplanes in the meantime. (how would that work with the SLI??)
Bye Bye--General Lee

GL.

You are clutching at straws -

Part of the alternative SLI framework agreement is that the SLI has to be complete - negotiated or arbitrated by DCC

If the SLI is complete and effective by DCC, any furloughs will come out of the combined list in seniority order.

If you think there is separate carve out that abrogates seniority outside of the integrated list between effective SLI and operational integration I think you are misinformed.

The only way furloughs can come exclusively from our side is before the SLI/DCC, and we have an LOA now that mitigates that largely by moving to DAL's staffing level of lower monthly maxes now.

 

[~~~^~~~]

nevermind... see you guys after this is over with.

 

[Diesel-9]

Have to remember we have a large number of seniority list pilots IP's. Probably averages 10% of the bid list for Captains. When we loose the value of having that ($ and training quality) estimate a 200-300 number of extra pilots will occur there. Was earlier mentioned that NWA only flew around an hour more than DAL pilots per month. It is actually closer to 9-10 hours more a month when you divide tha actual number of pilots bidding a line vs the total bid list which includes the non-flying IP's that month. The DAL work rules with less flying done per pilot will absorb most of these lost instructor jobs and will take time to phase in. Hear there are now 350-400 people with retirement papers in their hands and waiting to see what comes out of the deal. When they see the huge increase in out of pocket medical/insurance cost and other changes, think you will see them all leave under the old plan prior to the changeover date.

 

[Superpilot92]

nevermind... see you guys after this is over with.

You first assume our MGMT gives a crap about our pilots let alone the junior ones. Has it occurred to you that Maybe just Maybe we are about to switch NWA to something that resembles the DAL staffing model, i mean we are about to merge? Second I sent you the numbers to show you we arent overstaffed. Finally the cost associated with furloughing people EVEN IF we were would cost OUR company a lot of money. And considering the plans and planes that are coming IF either side had to furlough it would dbe short lived. Would you prefer OUR company waste money and furloughed people unnecessarily? I hope not. We have good things coming to this New airline and you can call it rosy if you want but we NEED to put down the swords.

 

[hockeypilot44]

Why didn't we adopt the NWA medical plans? I thought we were supposed to take the best from both sides.

 

[Superpilot92]

Hear there are now 350-400 people with retirement papers in their hands and waiting to see what comes out of the deal. When they see the huge increase in out of pocket medical/insurance cost and other changes, think you will see them all leave under the old plan prior to the changeover date.

Heard the same thing today in the Crewroom from a number of the on the fence guys. They are looking at almost double the cost for retirement medical costs for the rest of their lives if they stay. They are on the fence now and leaning on dropping off.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

I don't know why you are so happy a swa 737 Capt. still makes more then a 747 or 777 capt.

Yeah, and my airline can beat up your airline. Who gives a crap! Sounds like small dick syndrome school boy.

 

[General Lee]

GL.

You are clutching at straws -

Part of the alternative SLI framework agreement is that the SLI has to be complete - negotiated or arbitrated by DCC

If the SLI is complete and effective by DCC, any furloughs will come out of the combined list in seniority order.

If you think there is separate carve out that abrogates seniority outside of the integrated list between effective SLI and operational integration I think you are misinformed.

The only way furloughs can come exclusively from our side is before the SLI/DCC, and we have an LOA now that mitigates that largely by moving to DAL's staffing level of lower monthly maxes now.

So let me get this straight, if you guys want to fence the 744s for 5 years (which is something we anticipate) and we say you need to fence the DC9s for 5 years (hopefully this will happen), and the new Delta decides to dump the DC9s (that were FENCED) and not get an immediate replacement, then guys with original DL numbers would be furloughed? Even though the DC9s were FENCED? Really? I think you might need to rethink that. The bottom amount of DC9 FOs equivalent to the number of displaced DC9 pilots would go to Compass, and if it was FENCED, then it would come from you guys, or newhires hired after the certificates are joined....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Have to remember we have a large number of seniority list pilots IP's. Probably averages 10% of the bid list for Captains. When we loose the value of having that ($ and training quality) estimate a 200-300 number of extra pilots will occur there. Was earlier mentioned that NWA only flew around an hour more than DAL pilots per month. It is actually closer to 9-10 hours more a month when you divide tha actual number of pilots bidding a line vs the total bid list which includes the non-flying IP's that month. The DAL work rules with less flying done per pilot will absorb most of these lost instructor jobs and will take time to phase in. Hear there are now 350-400 people with retirement papers in their hands and waiting to see what comes out of the deal. When they see the huge increase in out of pocket medical/insurance cost and other changes, think you will see them all leave under the old plan prior to the changeover date.

That could change too. We don't have many line pilots doing training. Line guys do give checkrides (called APDs) in the sim, and a certain percentage are trainers, but most are retired guys which are paid a straight salary. It is cheaper that way, and in this environment expect Delta do look for some cost cutting.


Bye Bye--General Lee