NWA/DAL JPWA highlights

[General Lee]

There are a lot of issues with doing that way, unless the SLI is done DOH at the bottom of the list. It would kind of show the hand of both MEC's

How about scope. Did WE as a collective group do anything to better that???

Good question. It was OVERWHELMINGLY voted YES by our MEC, so they probably LOVED it. If they left out some sort of major furlough protection, or huge gaps in scope, there could be a recall I would think.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Fly4hire]

All sounds reasonable. Is there any way we can get some language saying the NW guys won't spend the next 20 years b1tching about the bad deal they got?

That will be answered by how the SLI plays out. If we both bitch equally for 10 years then we did well....

 

[jetjockey#1]

We will get a 5% raise thanks to LOA19, which in this environment isn't that bad. Also, if the DC9s disappear overnight, the NWA guys would go away with it, primarily because our certificates would not be merged into one for up to a year past the actual merger date. There will be no swapping of planes until that happens, as it takes the FAA a while to do things. Also, there will likely be fences, and hopefully one around the DC9, since the NWA guys most likely want one around the 744 also.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I am aware we are getting a raise, 5%, I am also aware that at the end of the day NWA is getting twice as much of an initial a raise, and they keep their pension, as they should. I believe DALPA should have negotiated a one time payment to all DAL pilots which equals the “extra” money NWA pilots get for being brought up to pay parity. I believe that’s what a lot of pilots I’ve been talking to the last few days are complaining about. If NWA gets a 9.5% to 10% raise, DAL pilots should get 9.5% to 10% raise. The difference between the universal 5% and the NWA raise should be paid to us as a one time check.

What do you think the NWA pilots would say if DAL started a brand new A fund only for DAL pilots. After all NWA has a pension already, frozen, but they still have it. I have a feeling they would feel like they are not getting as much……. I understand a 5% check is not the same as a pension, but the concept is the same. As a DAL pilot I expect to get the same % as NWA pilot. Otherwise my vote is NO

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Now what would reeeeeally be funny is if DL guys vote this dowe, NWA guys vote it through...then it will be the DL guys holding everything up, and NW guys get to go by the agreement for their side (ala LOA19). Won't do anything for unity of their group as a whole, but the karma for the DL whiners would be priceless

 

[Superpilot92]

I am aware we are getting a raise, 5%, I am also aware that at the end of the day NWA is getting twice as much of an initial a raise, and they keep their pension, as they should. I believe DALPA should have negotiated a one time payment to all DAL pilots which equals the “extra” money NWA pilots get for being brought up to pay parity. I believe that’s what a lot of pilots I’ve been talking to the last few days are complaining about. If NWA gets a 9.5% to 10% raise, DAL pilots should get 9.5% to 10% raise. The difference between the universal 5% and the NWA raise should be paid to us as a one time check.

What do you think the NWA pilots would say if DAL started a brand new A fund only for DAL pilots. After all NWA has a pension already, frozen, but they still have it. I have a feeling they would feel like they are not getting as much……. I understand a 5% check is not the same as a pension, but the concept is the same. As a DAL pilot I expect to get the same % as NWA pilot. Otherwise my vote is NO

How exactly do you expect DAL and NWA to get equal pay raises and still have the same pay rates under 1 contract? Its mathematically impossible you do realize that, dont you? Where do some of you come up with this stuff?

WHY WAS LOA 19 OK without the NWA pilots at the same rates but with the NWA pilots its NOT ok? Do you realize how asinine that looks?

 

[JAM-BRO]

I got a question for you and be honest. Did you vote "YES" for LOA19?

I am aware we are getting a raise, 5%, I am also aware that at the end of the day NWA is getting twice as much of an initial a raise, and they keep their pension, as they should. I believe DALPA should have negotiated a one time payment to all DAL pilots which equals the “extra” money NWA pilots get for being brought up to pay parity. I believe that’s what a lot of pilots I’ve been talking to the last few days are complaining about. If NWA gets a 9.5% to 10% raise, DAL pilots should get 9.5% to 10% raise. The difference between the universal 5% and the NWA raise should be paid to us as a one time check.

What do you think the NWA pilots would say if DAL started a brand new A fund only for DAL pilots. After all NWA has a pension already, frozen, but they still have it. I have a feeling they would feel like they are not getting as much……. I understand a 5% check is not the same as a pension, but the concept is the same. As a DAL pilot I expect to get the same % as NWA pilot. Otherwise my vote is NO

 

[Superpilot92]

I got a question for you and be honest. Did you vote "YES" for LOA19?

I am willing to bet i know that answer It was ok without the NWA pilots but Not with us. Some people have very unrealistic expectations especially in light of the current state of the industry.

THE DALPA MEC UNANIMOUSLY VOTED THIS IN QUICKLY I would assume that means they think this is the right thing to do for ALL of us in light of the situation.

I am DUMBFOUNDED at the shift in support for the DAL MEC by SOME of these DAL guys. They had full support for their MEC for all decisions up to this point and now are letting GREED AND A SENSE OF ENTITLEMENT cloud the whole thing up. WOW

 

[Occam's Razor]

I am also aware that at the end of the day NWA is getting twice as much of an initial a raise,

The objective is to have a single pilot group. "Single" as in "one". Your piece of the pie will be equal to every one else's.

There is a mechanism within the current NWA contract to offset the amount some of us have in frozen pension benefits. My DC is 0%. What's your's? Wanna trade my frozen DB benefit for the next 10 years of your DC?

The MEC's are doing their best to equalize the goodies in the bag for both groups. If your goal is to build together a kick-butt airline, then you should support them.

Otherwise my vote is NO

Tell your reps you disagree with them.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Fact is that I am very happy to see you guys on a level playing field with us. It bothers me to see that your DC MAY not be on parity with ours for a few years. That I do not get.
I know you are getting a bigger piece of the pie, but that goes with being the one that is being bought. It is generally better for the ones being bought. (Take TWA out of the argument) Look at the Pan AM guys, Ex EAL, etc. They have done quite well at DAL, not matter what they think about where they fell on the list. They are still in the same job that they were in making industry leading wages. That is something.
Now fast forward four years. We have 12,000 pilots. That is a very big arm to deal with. In essence IF we are in good times we will be well within our right to receive a very hefty contractual improvement. We will be a very loud voice in ALPA too. If you really want to see change, having the most pilots by almost double is a good way to do it.

 

[Noserider76]

I am willing to bet i know that answer It was ok without the NWA pilots but Not with us. Some people have very unrealistic expectations especially in light of the current state of the industry.

I want you guys to have parity and move forward as one group. However, it is not unreasonable to say, there was an amount of pie allocated to do this deal, the DL MEC made it possible to access this pie, and you guys receive the lion's share. We're looking for an equity offset or payout to equalize the amount of pie for each side. My view is that a deal seen as equally beneficial will foster a better relationship going forward.

The same can be said for fences that will allow both sides to count on a status quo QOL. Face it, from this side of the fence we see you guys getting a far better deal.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Well They are. Now we have to decide if the same raises as LOA 19, and long term job security are worth voting for the JPWA.

 

[DAL737FO]

Now what would reeeeeally be funny is if DL guys vote this dowe, NWA guys vote it through...then it will be the DL guys holding everything up, and NW guys get to go by the agreement for their side (ala LOA19). Won't do anything for unity of their group as a whole, but the karma for the DL whiners would be priceless

VOR,

You really don't get how this works. If we vote it down then it doesn't go into effect for either side. The status quo remains and LOA 19 goes into effect for the Delta side at DCC. Hence joint pilot working agreement. If either side votes it down then it's up to the negotiators to go back to the tables.

 

[Superpilot92]

I want you guys to have parity and move forward as one group. However, it is not unreasonable to say, there was an amount of pie allocated to do this deal, the DL MEC made it possible to access this pie, and you guys receive the lion's share. We're looking for an equity offset or payout to equalize the amount of pie for each side. My view is that a deal seen as equally beneficial will foster a better relationship going forward.

The same can be said for fences that will allow both sides to count on a status quo QOL. Face it, from this side of the fence we see you guys getting a far better deal.

LOA 19 came as a result of the Merger with US. IF not for the merger you would be getting NOTHING More right now. We are in this together. You voted in LOA 19 before when the NWA pilots were left out and that was ok but now suddenly when we get the same deal that is allowed because of the joining of OUR companies, its not ok? Fact is we are getting less DC and less Equity but same rates. Our rates mathematically HAVE to be more than yours because we have further to go to get there because of a number of factors. This is about Equality and now your second guessing YOUR MEC, WHY? You trusted them up to this point why the sudden change? Is it Greed? I hope not because if you think you will be able to get MORE in the current state of our industry you are crazy. Some times you have to take it and run and NOW is that time.

 

[Superpilot92]

VOR,

You really don't get how this works. If we vote it down then it doesn't go into effect for either side. The status quo remains and LOA 19 goes into effect for the Delta side at DCC. Hence joint pilot working agreement. If either side votes it down then it's up to the negotiators to go back to the tables.

And if that happens we may not even get what we have now considering things are worse now then they were before. Just like we would have had more back in Feb had we come to an agreement then(different discussion). The effects will be worse if we wait ask Usair and America West guys what they think about not working together.

 

[Flyer1015]

So what does this all mean for Compass. Since layoffs at the majors are inevitable, what does it mean for the Compass flowback?

 

[FlyinPiker]

LOA 19 came as a result of the Merger with US. IF not for the merger you would be getting NOTHING More right now. We are in this together. You voted in LOA 19 before when the NWA pilots were left out and that was ok but now suddenly when we get the same deal that is allowed because of the joining of OUR companies, its not ok? Fact is we are getting less DC and less Equity but same rates. Our rates mathematically HAVE to be more than yours because we have further to go to get there because of a number of factors. This is about Equality and now your second guessing YOUR MEC, WHY? You trusted them up to this point why the sudden change? Is it Greed? I hope not because if you think you will be able to get MORE in the current state of our industry you are crazy. Some times you have to take it and run and NOW is that time.

What's with the greed talk? I can't say I agree with these guys but I can take a step back and see where they are coming from. They don't want more than what the NWA pilots stand to gain from the new TA they want what they feel is the same as the NWA pilots stand to gain (payout, bonus...whatever).

LOA 19 was not meant as a long term deal. LOA 19 was meant for if this deal was pushed through and both sides weren't able to come to agreement by then . Call it what you want, but it was smart. It was something that actually gave the DAL pilot group a reason to actually listen to the company as they spouted off the benefit's of a merger. It cracks me up when I hear "you guys were fine with LOA19 without the NW pilots"....of course it was without the Northwest pilots...the whole purpose of it was a fall back if both sides weren't able to come to an agreement. If we were both working on it it wouldn't have been an LOA it would have been a TA.

Remember LOA 19 came after our very successful talks on how we were going to handle seniority...thank god the two dynamic's of the unions have changed.

I see a new theme of some seem to be we would never have LOA 19 if it was not for the merger (really?? no new news there), but I actually think we would not have LOA 19 if our unions would have got off to a better start...either way it seemed to get both sides talking again didn't it.

 

[Noserider76]

LOA 19 came as a result of the Merger with US. IF not for the merger you would be getting NOTHING More right now. We are in this together. You voted in LOA 19 before when the NWA pilots were left out and that was ok but nowyou are crazy.

Letter 19 is a moot point now. I'm talking benefits from the pre-merger baseline and the perception here. Greed or not we'll all be better off in the long run if the deal is perceived to bring equal benefits to both sides.

 

[Superpilot92]

So what does this all mean for Compass. Since layoffs at the majors are inevitable, what does it mean for the Compass flowback?

They arent inevitable at least not at NWA and DAL as of right now and there are many factors that lead to that belief. the flowthrough is being carried over in the new TA so anything is possible but IMHO its doubtful. We'll see.

 

[Superpilot92]

What's with the greed talk? Greed talk was because of the view of some people on this thread that now feel they deserve more because the NWA pilots in a % basis appear to get more. If we are to have one contract and payrates its impossible for DAL to get more than the NWA pilots since we have to come up more to get to whatever rates we have. I can't say I agree with these guys but I can take a step back and see where they are coming from. They don't want more than what the NWA pilots stand to gain from the new TA they want what they feel is the same as the NWA pilots stand to gain (payout, bonus...whatever).

LOA 19 was not meant as a long term deal. LOA 19 was meant for if this deal was pushed through and both sides weren't able to come to agreement by then . Call it what you want, but it was smart. It was something that actually gave the DAL pilot group a reason to actually listen to the company as they spouted off the benefit's of a merger. It cracks me up when I hear "you guys were fine with LOA19 without the NW pilots"....of course it was without the Northwest pilots...the whole purpose of it was a fall back if both sides weren't able to come to an agreement. If we were both working on it it wouldn't have been an LOA it would have been a TA.

Remember LOA 19 came after our very successful talks on how we were going to handle seniority...thank god the two dynamic's of the unions have changed. The new theme seems to be we would never have LOA 19 if it was not for the merger (really?? no new news there), but I actually think we would not have LOA 19 if our unions would have got off to a better start...either way it seemed to get both sides talking again didn't it.

I agree with what you are saying and its a very good thing that both sides are working together. We are leaps and bounds ahead of the fiasco at Usair and it needs to stay that way for ALL of us to see the short and long term success of our company.

 

[FlyinPiker]

I think these guys have found a way around that with the talks of bonus or payout checks. Still keeps things equal doesn't it? Pay rates stay the same and both side are happy. I'm not saying I agree with it, but don't say it's impossible to make these guys happy. I certainly wouldn't shy away from a check.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Super92:

I think you are getting the same equity. The percentage is different because NWA shareholders are getting 1.25 shares of DAL stock. Does that make sense?

Just repeating what I read elsewhere, that the equity was the same, but the percentage different because of the premium being paid NWA shareholders.

 

[PCL_128]

Letter 19 is a moot point now. I'm talking benefits from the pre-merger baseline and the perception here. Greed or not we'll all be better off in the long run if the deal is perceived to bring equal benefits to both sides.

If you get what you want (higher equity stake, cash payout, etc...), then the NWA guys will no longer perceive it to be a fair deal. Either way, some small group of pilots is going to feel that they didn't get a completely "fair" deal. From an outsider's perspective, this deal seems incredibly fair to both sides, and an amazing step in the right direction, especially after we've seen what a group of bozos like the Easties have done under similar circumstances.

 

[Schwanker]

I think these guys have found a way around that with the talks of bonus or payout checks. Still keeps things equal doesn't it? Pay rates stay the same and both side are happy. I'm not saying I agree with it, but don't say it's impossible to make these guys happy. I certainly wouldn't shy away from a check.

Maybe we could get management to buy each real Delta pilot a Harley (no helmet). Maybe this would work! It's funny how some feel us NWA guys slid in the back door and shouldn't be treated equally. Someday, I hope to be as good as them.

Never Ever Real Delta

Schwanker

 

[slapstick]

If NWA pilots were to get triple the pay, 8% equity, fences, and DOH, would they STILL be unpleasant to be around?

Will they still sit in the penalty box with both engines and APU running so they can professionally vent their frustrations?

 

[~~~^~~~]

PCL128:

I agree also that this is a very fair deal. It is also a real windfall for the NWA pilots. Both can be true.

Doing the JPWA first was a good strategy. But I think it would be easier to sell it to the membership if they had worked for scope, commuter and displacement provisions that provided a hedge against the fear of an uncertain SLI outcome.

 

[FlyinPiker]

Maybe we could get management to buy each real Delta pilot a Harley (no helmet). Maybe this would work! It's funny how some feel us NWA guys slid in the back door and shouldn't be treated equally. Someday, I hope to be as good as them.

Never Ever Real Delta

Schwanker

Wow...aren't you going to be fun to fly with.

Nobody has said they are flat out against NWA guys being treated equally. I think the arguement here is about reaping the same amount of gains that some feel NWA pilots will see in this new contract.

I find it funny that some NWA pilots seem against this idea..how does it effect them? They get extra dough in payrates and workrules and DAL pilots get a check. What's the problem? How does this not treat NWA pilots equally?

For the record I don't think it would ever work and am content working under the same contract (that none of us have even seen yet) as our NWA bothers...no extra dough needed. I'm more concerned about the SLI and how possible furloughs down the road would be handled.

 

[Superpilot92]

There will be at least a 12 month unofficial fence put up because of the time needed to get everything on one certificate so you DAL shouldn't be worried about what will happen next year IMHO and for that matter i dont think there is anything to be worried about anyway.

 

[General Lee]

So what does this all mean for Compass. Since layoffs at the majors are inevitable, what does it mean for the Compass flowback?

As of right now not every major is laying off. As far as NWA laying people off, I don't think that is the case yet, but they will determine if some do go Compass soon. When the operating certificates are merged into one, I would think they would go back to mainline, probably on a new DL jet.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

VOR,

You really don't get how this works. If we vote it down then it doesn't go into effect for either side. The status quo remains and LOA 19 goes into effect for the Delta side at DCC. Hence joint pilot working agreement. If either side votes it down then it's up to the negotiators to go back to the tables.

Voice of Reason, or VOR, is completely miserable flying at Flight Options. Kinda sad actually.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Schwanker]

Wow...aren't you going to be fun to fly with.

Nobody has said they are flat out against NWA guys being treated equally. I think the arguement here is about reaping the same amount of gains that some feel NWA pilots will see in this new contract.

I find it funny that some NWA pilots seem against this idea..how does it effect them? They get extra dough in payrates and workrules and DAL pilots get a check. What's the problem? How does this not treat NWA pilots equally?

For the record I don't think it would ever work and am content working under the same contract (that none of us have even seen yet) as our NWA bothers...no extra dough needed. I'm more concerned about the SLI and how possible furloughs down the road would be handled.

- Payrates definately a plus
- Workrules improve in many areas (setback in some) ie.. jumpseat, 75 hour res guar, sick leave, retirement co-pays, time & 1/2 for time over 80, higher monthly guarantees (debatable), separate bid cat for block/reserve come to mind. A reserve 744FO will make the same under with NWA payrates at 75 hrs he will at 70 hrs with new rates.
- SLI needs to be fair

My point is some DAL guys believe they are entitled to more than NWA guys because after all, they're real DAL guys. This sentiment is BS, but I guess I'll have to live with it.

Some good news:
NWA/NWALPA just put out a flying bulletin. There will be no furloughs due to the fall draw down. The few out of category displacements will have the option to not be displaced in the fall. The revised fleet plan for Dec 31, 2008 still includes 61 DC-9s. The previous press announcements were accurate as we'll lose 10 757s, 4 A320s, and bring the -9 fleet to 61. I'm sure we'll continue to hear from DAL guys how the -9s will be parked immediately. All evidence says otherwise.

Schwanker