NW/DL (and ultimately affecting ALL of us): The Flaw With "Career Expectations"

[Cobraair75drvr]

Just flew on a AA dc9 the other day. I also think that dal and allegiant may fly the dc9. Btw, who do you fly for??

Voice of Reason seems to be out of it. I don't fly for either of those 2 airlines, but it is easy to see that Delta is bringing more to the merger. Nicer planes, better bases, etc. Does anyone else fly DC9s other than Venezuela and some countries in Africa? I think I saw an ABX DC9 the other day on a cargo ramp somewhere.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Using size as your logic for the 9, what is your logic for the 400 being paid the same as the 777?? Btw the 747 so pays more than the coveted er. And before you go into the " 200s are going away speech" remember that they occupy slots at nrt, some being dual use(pax or cargo) and those won't be given away. That has also has to be looked at...I still think that neither sides proposal is going to be final. I think the best you can hope for is straight relative seniority and us feeling that is the absolute most we will give. And none of us know what the 3 wisemen will do if we leave it to them.







The DC9s are currently the smallest plane we have, paying the least. No getting around that. You also have some 747-200 FEs that are not over age 60 pilots, that were hired in the bottom 176 at NWA. We don't have any FE positions left at Delta. That also has to be looked at.


Bye Bye--General Lee[/quote]

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Voice of Reason seems to be out of it.

That's the understatement of the year.

I don't fly for either of those 2 airlines, but it is easy to see that Delta is bringing more to the merger. Nicer planes, better bases, etc.

Careful. The koolaid drinking nw pilots that fly those "super premium widebody" airplanes would disagree. Plus, northwest has those "fortress hubs" in MSP and DTW.

Does anyone else fly DC9s other than Venezuela and some countries in Africa?

Iraqi air still flies them.

I think I saw an ABX DC9 the other day on a cargo ramp somewhere.

I rest my case.

 

[poppi]

I get the impression Voice of Reason has a tendancy to bust oral check rides the way he writes.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

I get the impression Voice of Reason has a tendancy to bust oral check rides the way he writes.

Is that you General Lee?
You have a tendency to pop up with so many screen names it's hard to keep up the ignore list.
Literacy actually helps in a number of ways.
Try it sometime flight sim DL fanboy.
(BTW-- Heavy Set, aka General Lee, aka 737Pylyt, aka Tanker Clown: You other name "Scope Out RJ's" should not have an apostrophe).
Carry on.

 

[nwaredtail]

Ask the USAir East guys if they feel "equal"? The arbitrator didn't care in that case. He did what was right--except for the top 500, he kept everyone in the same percentage as before the merger. He looked at what each airline brought to the table, and then decided. IF we had the same number of planes and pilots, it would be easier to figure out. We don't.

Bye Bye--General Lee

And the arbitrators little "warning" to the DAL guys last week better open your eyes bi-polar boy. The NWA proposal harms NO DAL pilot, while the DAL proposal takes away years of seniority from almost every NWA pilot. Yup, I am SURE the arbitrators will overlook this. I agree, they will look at NWA's superior financial numbers, less debt, fortress hubs, more cash vs. size and make a fair decision.

Seriously, one minute you are Mr. "let's have beers", the next, "we are saving NWA and their old planes" What a ****************************** bag.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

The NWA proposal significantly harms many DAL pilots.... don't be so blind to your own cause. Many mid-upper level DAL pilots would be taking a huge hit in bidding power with the NWA proposal.

However, I agree that the 744 should be paid more than the 777. I also believe that all the 744 slots should have been in front of ours.

For this and other reasons..we're going to see something in between the two proposals.

 

[michael707767]

The NWA proposal harms NO DAL pilot, while the DAL proposal takes away years of seniority from almost every NWA pilot.

a statement like means you are confusing seniority with longevity. The number one pilot at JetBlue, has only been there 8 or 9 years, but he is still very senior. The bottom guy at USAir at one point had been there 16-17 years, yet he was still very junior. How long you have been there means nothing in terms of seniority.

The NWA proposal takes Delta pilots and moves them down the list between 9 and 12%,whilte at the same time moving NWA pilots up 10-15% on the list. The Delta proposal leaves everyone within a percent or two of their current position.

Further, the very topic of this thread is a flaw with career expectation. That means you can't count on moving up with retirements, or deliveries or anything like that. All that counts is what you are holding today.

 

[nwaredtail]

.

The NWA proposal takes Delta pilots and moves them down the list between 9 and 12%. The Delta proposal leaves everyone within a percent of their current position.

First of all, you failed math bigtime. The Delta proposal takes relative seniority (i'll accept that), and then gives all the DAL guys 1500 retirements that they would NOT have had over the next 10 years. Yeah, THATS FAIR.

In 10 years, the top 50% of the list would be almost 90% DAL pilots. I guess that just slipped by your guys as they were defining "fairness".

 

[michael707767]

First of all, you failed math bigtime. The Delta proposal takes relative seniority (i'll accept that), and then gives all the DAL guys 1500 retirements that they would NOT have had over the next 10 years. Yeah, THATS FAIR.

In 10 years, the top 50% of the list would be almost 90% DAL pilots. I guess that just slipped by your guys as they were defining "fairness".

Do you know for a fact that the retirements at NWA won't be offset by the airline shrinking? No you don't. Even the arbitrators shot down the idea of career expectations.

However, if you want to argue you should get better than relative because you have more retirements, that's a valid argument. But DOH means nothing.

 

[anewunion]

This is nonsense.

Facts:

Fact: NWA Pilots just got a large pay raise/ Delta pilots got nothing

Fact: NWA pilots have some sort of a pension/ Delta pilots have nothing

Fact: NWA Pilots have gotten better work rules/ Delta has gotten nothing

Fact: Delta is the dominant and buying airline

Fact: NWA pilots are moving over to delta/ not the opposite

Fact: DALPA came up with a fair seniority list/ NWA comes up with D.O.H

Do you really think you a gonna get a raise, keep your pension, pick your base, kick the current Captains at Delta out of their seats, and lie about leaving at age 60.

Welcome to Delta, but don't think D.O.H is an option.

 

[General Lee]

First of all, you failed math bigtime. The Delta proposal takes relative seniority (i'll accept that), and then gives all the DAL guys 1500 retirements that they would NOT have had over the next 10 years. Yeah, THATS FAIR.

In 10 years, the top 50% of the list would be almost 90% DAL pilots. I guess that just slipped by your guys as they were defining "fairness".

Your MEC has been feeding you this stuff and it has sunk in obviously. We have just as many, or MORE retirements than you do coming up, but just spaced out 5 years later. We do. Also, you have no clue when those guys will actually retire, since age 60 was changed to age 65. In your proposal I did move backwards 14%. In ours, I moved up 2% because we put the bottom 400 all NWA, primarily because you are losing airplanes and those pilots could not hold any widebodies at NWA, whereas ours could at DL. We bring more widebodies to the table, and that means higher pay too. Let's see here, you got a 15% raise already, then another 5% in January, and then bidding 767ER on our side would give you another huge raise. That is called a windfall.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[fly2002]

small Nwa correction here.

This is nonsense.

Facts:

MYTH: NWA Pilots just got a large pay raise/ Delta pilots got nothing

Fact: Nwa pilots received a wage increase but that goes away in a few months. Health care, and monthly guarantee decrease.

Fact: NWA pilots have some sort of a pension/ Delta pilots have nothing

Fact: Your guys bailed and left you with nothing. Quite nice of them.

Myth: NWA Pilots have gotten better work rules/ Delta has gotten nothing

Fact: We haven't received anything yet, and when it does show up I take a paycut, lose my commuter clause and see my medical coverage go through the roof. I can't wait!!!

Myth: Delta is the dominant and buying airline

Fact: You mean the airline with serious hub issues? Can you say AirTran in atlanta or jetBlue in JFK. You'll just announced a reduction in european traffic. ...psst....you NEED us......

Kinda Fact: NWA pilots are moving over to delta/ not the opposite

Fact: Its a merger with Delta being kept as the name. That's about it brotha.


Myth: DALPA came up with a fair seniority list/ NWA comes up with D.O.H

Fact: Tossing 500 junior NWA guys on the bottom of the list? UNFAIR.

Fact: A Delta New-Hire senior to a 7 year NWA pilot. BEYOND UNFAIR.

Do you really think ALL of the people on this forum are idiots? Do you really think that even an NON-DAL/NWA pilot would view the DAL "proposal" as completely one sided?
Welcome to Cobra bi#ch, I think D.O.H is entirely an option.
Today 00:39

 

[nwaredtail]

Where do I begin??????

Fact: NWA Pilots just got a large pay raise/ Delta pilots got nothing

less than 6% with increased medical, less hours, loss of 1.5 over 80, etc.. BTW, you will get a raise in January, you are welcome. Is this your idea of large or your wifes?

Fact: NWA pilots have some sort of a pension/ Delta pilots have nothing

Sorry, our guys were smart enough to save what we had. Yours took the $ and ran. Bitch at them. Many DAL pilots still have some pension, just not the newer ones. This must be you.

Fact: NWA Pilots have gotten better work rules/ Delta has gotten nothing

Maybe a little bit, but that is because we have such a good negotiating team. Again, you are welcome.

Fact: Delta is the dominant and buying airline

I would hardly call a stock swap, "buying", but to the uneducated, maybe. Dominant? The only thing the execs care about is money and NWA has been beating the whole legacy industry since I can remember. Sorry Junior, play again later.

Fact: NWA pilots are moving over to delta/ not the opposite

What? Stupid is as Stupid does.

Fact: DALPA came up with a fair seniority list/ NWA comes up with D.O.H

Do you really think you a gonna get a raise, keep your pension, pick your base, kick the current Captains at Delta out of their seats, and lie about leaving at age 60.

Over 75% of eligible guys have left and rumor has it, a boat load retired Thursday. How many at DAL. Yup ZEROOOOOOOOOOOO. Lay of the Prozac before you type.

Welcome to Delta, but don't think D.O.H is an option.[/QUOTE

]

Did anyone tell you that you don't get any say????

Sucks being junior huh?

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Tell your guys to quit dragging their heals on the SLI. Just admit that your retirement numbers at DCC were wrong.

 

[fly2002]

looks like I beat you to it redtail!! hahaha

 

[General Lee]

Tell your guys to quit dragging their heals on the SLI. Just admit that your retirement numbers at DCC were wrong.

Boy were they off, you are right. Also, look at their computer model for their SLI. How many DC9s did they consider? 94? They threw in 787 slots too, right? They forgot about the extra 8 777s we are getting on firm order before the SOC, too? Darn computers! Oh yeah, and we only average 79 hours of pay a month, when ALL NWA pilots get 88 hours. They must be paid more than we are.......(according to their witness they are....)?

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

This is nonsense.
More inaccuracies from the talking points
Facts:

Fact: NWA Pilots just got a large pay raise/ Delta pilots got nothing
Fact: NWA got on avg 9% hourly raise but lost premium pay over 80, unless they greenslip which really will only help guys who live in base(comuter unfriendly) WE ALL GET A 5% RAISE ON JAN 1ST, NOT JUST FORMER NWA.

Fact: NWA pilots have some sort of a pension/ Delta pilots have nothing
FACT: LESS THAN 1500 NWA PILOTS HAVE A FROZEN PENSION WORTH MORE THAN THE PBGC BENEFIT THAT FORMER DAL PILOTS HAVE.
Fact: NWA Pilots have gotten better work rules/ Delta has gotten nothing
FACT: SOME RULES ARE BETTER, SOME ARE NOT. OVERALL A WASH. YOU GUYS ARE THE ONES WHO NEGOTIATED LOA 19, DON'T BLAME US.
Fact: Delta is the dominant and buying airline
FACT: NO DOMINANCE, JUST ANOTHER CH 11 US AIRLINE THAT IS A JOKE COMPARED TO OUR INTL COUNTERPARTS.
Fact: NWA pilots are moving over to delta/ not the opposite
FACT: CHEAPER FOR THE MERGED AIRLINE. THIS IS AN ESSENTIAL TAKEOVER OF DELTA BY NWA MGMT AND INVESTORS. ALSO NO PESKY UNIONS TO DEAL WITH EXCEPT PILOTS AND DISPATCHERS.
Fact: DALPA came up with a fair seniority list/ NWA comes up with D.O.H
FACT:FAIR IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER. WITH DALPAS PROPOSAL IN 10 YEARS ESSENTIALLY ALL WIDEBODY CAPT SEATS(INCLUDING THE ONES WE BRING) WILL BE OCCUPIED BY FORMER DAL. REAL FAIR.
Do you really think you a gonna get a raise, keep your pension, pick your base, kick the current Captains at Delta out of their seats, and lie about leaving at age 60.
FACT: YOU GET A RAISE ALSO, PENSION DETAILS EXPLAINED ABOVE, NOT ASKING TO RAID YOUR BASED OR SEATS(JUST WAN'T WHAT WE BRING) AND WE HAVE HAD AT LEAST 65% GOING AT 60 SO FAR, NO LIES JUST FACTS.
Welcome to Delta, but don't think D.O.H is an option.

THANKS FOR THE WELCOME, BUT DON'T THINK DALPAS IDEA OF RELATIVE SENIORITY IS AN OPTION EITHER.

 

[nwaredtail]

looks like I beat you to it redtail!! hahaha

Had some beers with my new DAL brothers in ATL recently, and they actually agreed with most of what I said. A couple were even ashamed at their own proposal.

They were cool and we all agreed we will end up somewhere in between and that the general is a complete tool.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

We will end up in the middle.
A ratio of some sort is probably the best either side can hope for.
We need to have a negotiated list. We are close.