NW/DL (and ultimately affecting ALL of us): The Flaw With "Career Expectations"

[Voice Of Reason]

NW/DL (and ultimately affecting ALL of us): The Flaw With "Career Expectations"

Re: Seniority List Integrations, currently NW & DL:
I can't see how they could justify anything OTHER than DOH in a merger of equals, (especially so for the 2008 hires for whom merger talk was ongoing when they elected to take those jobs...why on earth would any from one side be above those on the other side hired before them?). They are now one company of pilots on the same path now.
The ratio lists are all ridiculous too... So right now DL side believes they are what UNITED believed themselves to be several years back (look at THEM now)...
In another venue in the same industry, look what a JOKE NetJets was just a few years ago...now look at them...and they could just as easily go right back where they were. We at FlightOtps used to be the highest paid and fastest growing...now the opposite...It happens over and over again throughout the entire industry.
There is NO logical way to predict "career expectations" in this industry!
THAT said.... I understand (from those posting here anyway) that NW and DL have differences regarding probation and longevity. There is much talk explaining that former NW furloughs get their longevity back (which is good and equal to the DL furloughs)
...but how will these inequities be resolved for those NW guys now on probation? Will recent date of hire DL guys remain with longer longevity than say NW guys hired a couple of months BEFORE them, or will they be made equal citizens like everyone else? If so...will they be given equal citizenship BEFORE an SLI is issued soon (sooner if negotiated), since they seem to not be applying a lot of the integrational issues until "undetermined" dates.
It will make a big difference to those people on your SLI if EVERYONE isn't made "equal" longevity-wise BEFORE the SLI is negotiated or issued.
Also....are both sides using the MOST recent seniority lists with most recent positions held by pilots (this is huge if they DO decide something crazy like "relative position?" (though I don't see how they could when so many people choose lower equip than they can hold due to QOL issues.
This thread isn't for why one side thinks it is better than the other....BTW...enough of those.
Hope your reps are addressing these issues for you and not just the concerns of those not concerned about losing their jobs....
Good luck to all!

 

[General Lee]

Re: Seniority List Integrations, currently NW & DL:
I can't see how they could justify anything OTHER than DOH in a merger of equals, (especially so for the 2008 hires for whom merger talk was ongoing when they elected to take those jobs...why on earth would any from one side be above those on the other side hired before them?). They are now one company of pilots on the same path now.
The ratio lists are all ridiculous too... So right now DL side believes they are what UNITED believed themselves to be several years back (look at THEM now)...
In another venue in the same industry, look what a JOKE NetJets was just a few years ago...now look at them...and they could just as easily go right back where they were. We at FlightOtps used to be the highest paid and fastest growing...now the opposite...It happens over and over again throughout the entire industry.
There is NO logical way to predict "career expectations" in this industry!
THAT said.... I understand (from those posting here anyway) that NW and DL have differences regarding probation and longevity. There is much talk explaining that former NW furloughs get their longevity back (which is good and equal to the DL furloughs)
...but how will these inequities be resolved for those NW guys now on probation? Will recent date of hire DL guys remain with longer longevity than say NW guys hired a couple of months BEFORE them, or will they be made equal citizens like everyone else? If so...will they be given equal citizenship BEFORE an SLI is issued soon (sooner if negotiated), since they seem to not be applying a lot of the integrational issues until "undetermined" dates.
It will make a big difference to those people on your SLI if EVERYONE isn't made "equal" longevity-wise BEFORE the SLI is negotiated or issued.
Also....are both sides using the MOST recent seniority lists with most recent positions held by pilots (this is huge if they DO decide something crazy like "relative position?" (though I don't see how they could when so many people choose lower equip than they can hold due to QOL issues.
This thread isn't for why one side thinks it is better than the other....BTW...enough of those.
Hope your reps are addressing these issues for you and not just the concerns of those not concerned about losing their jobs....
Good luck to all!

Ask the USAir East guys if they feel "equal"? The arbitrator didn't care in that case. He did what was right--except for the top 500, he kept everyone in the same percentage as before the merger. He looked at what each airline brought to the table, and then decided. IF we had the same number of planes and pilots, it would be easier to figure out. We don't.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Inane and undoubtedly irrelevant and typically nonapplicable message from General Lee is blocked because he is on your ignore list like everyone else's.

 

[Noserider76]

Re: Seniority List Integrations, currently NW & DL:
I can't see how they could justify anything OTHER than DOH in a merger of equals

The only thing your hire date gives you is your relative seniority at the company which hired you. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

The only thing your hire date gives you is your relative seniority at the company which hired you. Nothing more, nothing less.

"Relative" ONLY to those hired on the same day, then by birthdate at most places
(or in the case of recent DL, by last 4 of ssn)...Which brings up yet ANOTHER inequity that needs to be resolved (in this case for the benefit of newer DL guys that were given the "age disc" BS within their hire classes and listed by last 4 of ssn UNlike most places)

 

[clippyrip]

Don't worry V.O.R., so far its just Delta guys arguing whats best for them. Big shocker.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

That is strictly your opinion. Just as doh with fences is ours. My guess is a negotiated list somewhere between with everyone a little pissed and there will be segments of both lists very pissed. Good news is we will know in 20-50 days or so....

The only thing your hire date gives you is your relative seniority at the company which hired you. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[General Lee]

That is strictly your opinion. Just as doh with fences is ours. My guess is a negotiated list somewhere between with everyone a little pissed and there will be segments of both lists very pissed. Good news is we will know in 20-50 days or so....

Negotaited list somewhere "between"? You started FAR RIGHT, and we started pretty close to the middle. If that was your plan (ask for something totally ridiculous that even USAIr East didn't get and hope to get the middle ground), then you are probably going to be upset. The end list will probably look a lot like the Nicelau award, since it was the most fair---keep people at a percentage with a few exceptions due to things that are brought to the airline, or to be taken away. You guys can't always bulley your way to an agreement.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[clippyrip]

You started FAR RIGHT, and we started pretty close to the middle.

Not to pick on you General but its that mentality that has put us in arbitration.

A negotiated list will build brotherhood but I think arbitration will treat NWA better. There is no way that the arbitrators could do worse than a 500 pilot staple.

 

[Noserider76]

That is strictly your opinion. Just as doh with fences is ours. My guess is a negotiated list somewhere between with everyone a little pissed and there will be segments of both lists very pissed. Good news is we will know in 20-50 days or so....

You're right about that. I don't tailor my opinions to what benefits me though. I have believed DOH had no bearing on any merger. I also believe our position to put the DC-9s at the bottom isn't fair. It wasn't what was negotiated in the spring but what happened when DL was forced into arbitration. My opinion only but I believe a straight ratio based on relative seniority will be the best solution in the long run. You're at 50% now, and end up at 50% in the combined company. No bump/flush and short fences to transition then bid what you can hold.

You'll lose on some short term retirements but gain a lot on numbers of larger equipment and bases. DL guys will gain a little on short term retirements but be exposed to the lower paying -9, a possible commute to cold weather, and slower upgrades in warm weather bases. Again, my opinion only.

 

[SKYWRJGUY]

It's a brotherhood right? It'll all work so each side gets the most out of the merger--no side will take advantage of the other for their own gain.

 

[General Lee]

Not to pick on you General but its that mentality that has put us in arbitration.

A negotiated list will build brotherhood but I think arbitration will treat NWA better. There is no way that the arbitrators could do worse than a 500 pilot staple.

Wait, your DOH proposal did the same thing. We actually were EXPANDING over the last 2 years, and we hired for that. You ony hired 176, and we hired 600+---and DOH would put a lage chunk of our guys at the bottom too, yet we are STILL expanding, and we are still short of pilots. Now that the DCC is over, maybe RA can expand a bit on which planes are likely to go away (hint, they are probably large and old) soon. That could be a factor in the SLI too. I am sure it was brought up anyway in the "confidential" part of our hearings..


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

It's a brotherhood right? It'll all work so each side gets the most out of the merger--no side will take advantage of the other for their own gain.

Taking advantage is a tough stance. I would say what each is bringing or taking to or from the table. If one is expanding and one is bound to get smaller, then that should be taken into account.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Phrogs4ever]

Relative percentage

If you hold the same relative percentage after the integration that you held before the seniority integration, then your QOL and bidding abilities will not be affected. If you're trying to get anything more than what you already have, you are contributing to the "me first" attitude that's accelerating the downward spiral of the piloting profession.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

My opinion only but I believe a straight ratio based on relative seniority will be the best solution in the long run. You're at 50% now, and end up at 50% in the combined company. No bump/flush and short fences to transition then bid what you can hold.

What is the DL side (AND the NW side) planning to do about:

- making newer DL pilots equal within their classes by doing by Date of Birth within classes (like the rest of their company and most others)

-making newer NW pilots equal (BEFORE a negotiated or arbitrated seniority list) by making them equal citizens in applying the same longevity and probation rules everyone else on both sides are now enjoying?

-recognizing that the DL new hires that started AFTER the merger announcement have NO BUSINESS being placed higher in seniority to NW new hires who accepted their jobs before the merger was officially announced?

I have buddies at both places and wish you all the best, and you are setting precedents that others may follow, so please be TRULY fair, not selfish, as I said "Career Expectations" mean nothing as United, PanAm and MANY MANY others can attest.

 

[General Lee]

If you hold the same relative percentage after the integration that you held before the seniority integration, then your QOL and bidding abilities will not be affected. If you're trying to get anything more than what you already have, you are contributing to the "me first" attitude that's accelerating the downward spiral of the piloting profession.

I agree, and throw in some fences (maybe 5 years) for each side on the large equipment. A problem with the NWA side is the greenbook supressed seniority. There are too many greenbooks that are VERY VERY senior who could NOT bid up to their rightful widebody seat due to the Roberts Award fence coming down, but no slots due to a lack of retirements and displacements. Those guys need to stay on their own equipment, and thanks to their new manning formula thanks to our rules(2 capts/2 FOs for over 12 hour flights), they can bid for those now.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Voice Of Reason]

What is the DL side (AND the NW side) planning to do about:

- making newer DL pilots equal within their classes by doing by Date of Birth within classes (like the rest of their company and most others)

-making newer NW pilots equal (BEFORE a negotiated or arbitrated seniority list) by making them equal citizens in applying the same longevity and probation rules everyone else on both sides are now enjoying?

-recognizing that the DL new hires that started AFTER the merger announcement have NO BUSINESS being placed higher in seniority to NW new hires who accepted their jobs before the merger was officially announced?

I have buddies at both places and wish you all the best, and you are setting precedents that others may follow, so please be TRULY fair, not selfish, as I said "Career Expectations" mean nothing as United, PanAm and MANY MANY others can attest.

I forgot to add this list...

-Are both sides working from the MOST current lists that show the MOST current equipment and active status?

 

[Noserider76]

What is the DL side (AND the NW side) planning to do about:

- making newer DL pilots equal within their classes by doing by Date of Birth within classes (like the rest of their company and most others)

-making newer NW pilots equal (BEFORE a negotiated or arbitrated seniority list) by making them equal citizens in applying the same longevity and probation rules everyone else on both sides are now enjoying?

-recognizing that the DL new hires that started AFTER the merger announcement have NO BUSINESS being placed higher in seniority to NW new hires who accepted their jobs before the merger was officially announced?

I have buddies at both places and wish you all the best, and you are setting precedents that others may follow, so please be TRULY fair, not selfish, as I said "Career Expectations" mean nothing as United, PanAm and MANY MANY others can attest.

a.) DOB is no longer used. It's some random version of low (or high) SSN now.

b.) everyone is equal now as far as I know. NW guys also get pay longevity for the time they were furloughed as well (huge for them) as DL always had.

c.) it's in arbitration.

 

[Heavy Set]

What is the DL side (AND the NW side) planning to do about:

- making newer DL pilots equal within their classes by doing by Date of Birth within classes (like the rest of their company and most others)

-making newer NW pilots equal (BEFORE a negotiated or arbitrated seniority list) by making them equal citizens in applying the same longevity and probation rules everyone else on both sides are now enjoying?

-recognizing that the DL new hires that started AFTER the merger announcement have NO BUSINESS being placed higher in seniority to NW new hires who accepted their jobs before the merger was officially announced?

I have buddies at both places and wish you all the best, and you are setting precedents that others may follow, so please be TRULY fair, not selfish, as I said "Career Expectations" mean nothing as United, PanAm and MANY MANY others can attest.

A lot of what you talk about is fantasy. I think phrogs4ever has it about right. You shouldn't gain anything that you didn't have before the merger, and that would favor relative percentage. Delta also has a lot more widebodies and the pay that goes along with them, while Northwest has a lot of the lowest paying equipment, the DC9. That will be looked at by the arbitrators I would speculate. And, I think United does the social security number also for class seniority.

 

[General Lee]

I forgot to add this list...

-Are both sides working from the MOST current lists that show the MOST current equipment and active status?[/quote]


That would be great. Their SLI computer model showed 94 active DC9s, and had slots for 787s....also, let's get RA's opinion on how long the 742s will remain. If it is already in the business plan to get rid of them soon, that is important.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

A lot of what you talk about is fantasy. I think phrogs4ever has it about right. You shouldn't gain anything that you didn't have before the merger, and that would favor relative percentage. Delta also has a lot more widebodies and the pay that goes along with them, while Northwest has a lot of the lowest paying equipment, the DC9. That will be looked at by the arbitrators I would speculate. And, I think United does the social security number also for class seniority.

He won't listen to any "reason".

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Voice Of Reason]

a.) DOB is no longer used. It's some random version of low (or high) SSN now.

b.) everyone is equal now as far as I know. NW guys also get pay longevity for the time they were furloughed as well (huge for them) as DL always had.

c.) it's in arbitration.

See this is the SAME bypass of the issues I am talking about that haven't been answered....

re: DOBirth: Most DL pilots except post 9-11 I believe are by Date of BIRTH within their classes. All of NW I believe are Date of birth within their class. Are they planning to make this small group at DL that has this off kilter rule equal?

re: longevity.,, AS I STATED everyone knows about the previously furloughed. y question is When are the NW new hires ON PROBATION going to be made equal to the DL pilots ON PROBATION and prior as far as THEIR probation and longevity. There are blatant disparities there that will be resolved whenever the "transition team" decides to resolve them.
My point is if these are not resolved BEFORE an SLI is determined, it is not at all fair to these guys and new hires from NW will be lacking longevity that new hire DL guys hired AFTER them will have MORE of.

 

[Noserider76]

See this is the SAME bypass of the issues I am talking about that haven't been answered....

re: DOBirth: Most DL pilots except post 9-11 I believe are by Date of BIRTH within their classes. All of NW I believe are Date of birth within their class. Are they planning to make this small group at DL that has this off kilter rule equal?

re: longevity.,, AS I STATED everyone knows about the previously furloughed. y question is When are the NW new hires ON PROBATION going to be made equal to the DL pilots ON PROBATION and prior as far as THEIR probation and longevity. There are blatant disparities there that will be resolved whenever the "transition team" decides to resolve them.
My point is if these are not resolved BEFORE an SLI is determined, it is not at all fair to these guys and new hires from NW will be lacking longevity that new hire DL guys hired AFTER them will have MORE of.

The possible or perceived inequities of the past won't be a factor. How far would you go back? 1986? earlier? They were hired by the company they worked for and live with the contracts they signed. They have their relative seniority at their company and will take that to the SLI.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

The possible or perceived inequities of the past won't be a factor. How far would you go back? 1986? earlier? They were hired by the company they worked for and live with the contracts they signed. They have their relative seniority at their company and will take that to the SLI.

I'm pretty sure you aren't reading or comprehending my posts.
1) DL former furloughees retained longevity through their furloughs
2) NW former furloughees ARE NOW getting back (as they should) longevity from when they were on furlough
(above not the main point, just pre-info)
3) These same EQUALIZING measures MAY (OR MAY NOT) be applied in respect to the NW NEW HIRES' LONGEVITY (to make them equal citizens with the way longevity is calculated for DL New Hires)
4) If they are made equal "whenever the transition team decides to get to it," and not BEFORE AN SLI IS DETERMINED, there will be new hire NW guys that have less longevity than new hire DL guys hired AFTER them, just due to this glitch that hasn't been addressed on their behalf.
It's being left to a transition team that may implement it AFTER the SLI is done

 

[Noserider76]

I'm pretty sure you aren't reading or comprehending my posts.
1) DL former furloughees retained longevity through their furloughs
2) NW former furloughees ARE NOW getting back (as they should) longevity from when they were on furlough
(above not the main point, just pre-info)
3) These same EQUALIZING measures MAY (OR MAY NOT) be applied in respect to the NW NEW HIRES' LONGEVITY (to make them equal citizens with the way longevity is calculated for DL New Hires)
4) If they are made equal "whenever the transition team decides to get to it," and not BEFORE AN SLI IS DETERMINED, there will be new hire NW guys that have less longevity than new hire DL guys hired AFTER them, just due to this glitch that hasn't been addressed on their behalf.
It's being left to a transition team that may implement it AFTER the SLI is done

No, I fully understand what you're saying. It was NW pilots/management that signed the contract that didn't give them longevity. That's what they bring. Maybe they negotiated it away for the senior guys to keep their retirement, which all DL pilots lost, or some other contract provision. I don't know.

I told you a few posts ago: c: it's in arbitration

 

[clippyrip]

PER THE ARBITRATORS:

"The first, of course, is to create a list that recognizes the prevailing equities of the new relationship, some points on that, just a small digression. Numerous witnesses have alluded to the fact that this is a conglomeration of equals. You differ as to how equal, but I think Dr.Campbell was essentially correct in speaking of this being a merger and not some sort of an acquisition. I don't hear any serious argument from either side that one company is the savior of the other in this. And secondly, there is no doubt that you -- and I know that we -- will not cure the inequities, real or perceived, of the past, nor can we isolate or insulate anyone against the vagaries of the future. Talk about career expectations in this industry is a little like dreaming about income expectations and investment opportunities at a roulette table."

 

[AirportBum]

That would be great. Their SLI computer model showed 94 active DC9s, and had slots for 787s....also, let's get RA's opinion on how long the 742s will remain. If it is already in the business plan to get rid of them soon, that is important.


Bye Bye--General Lee

You love to keep bringing this point up. The only problem is while the statement is accurate, you're ignoring the context of the situation. Now that Anderson is making the decisions, we should all be affected by it. We're one happy family now right?

NWA didn't need this merger to survive, and wouldn't have dumped all their -200's or 9's (at least not without a replacement.) This merger has been in the works since way before it was officially announced, so it needs to be recognized that Delta management has had a hand in NWA's decision making (such as not ordering a -9 replacement) for a long time. We shouldn't get burned with a staple, because your (now our) management decided they don't want to replace the -9's at NWA pre-merger. And before you try to ignore it again, our scope prevents a full replacement of the -9's by Embraers.

Any reductions now (which will be made, and have been set in place by DAL management) should be shared seniority pain, ie no staple for either side.

I get what you're trying to do with your -9 and 742 propoganda (again probably accurate, but you conveniently ignore the surrounding circumstances.) However, it's detrimental to the longterm harmony of the pilot group.

Standing by for an incomplete, slanted response that doesn't really justify a staple. Oh yeah ->

 

[Noserider76]

PER THE ARBITRATORS:

And secondly, there is no doubt that you -- and I know that we -- will not cure the inequities, real or perceived, of the past, nor can we isolate or insulate anyone against the vagaries of the future.

You forgot to highlight the statement most relevant to this particular discussion.

 

[TWA Dude]

Every merger is different. No one integration scheme fits all. Merging by DOH may be easy and objective but my vote goes for fairness.

Funny how no pilot who stands to lose seniority through DOH speaks in favor of it.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Y
NWA didn't need this merger to survive, and wouldn't have dumped all their -200's or 9's (at least not without a replacement.) This merger has been in the works since way before it was officially announced, so it needs to be recognized that Delta management has had a hand in NWA's decision making (such as not ordering a -9 replacement) for a long time. We shouldn't get burned with a staple, because your (now our) management decided they don't want to replace the -9's at NWA pre-merger. And before you try to ignore it again, our scope prevents a full replacement of the -9's by Embraers.

Any reductions now (which will be made, and have been set in place by DAL management) should be shared seniority pain, ie no staple for either side.

i

CANNOT BE EMPHASIZED ENOUGH....