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NW/DL (and ultimately affecting ALL of us): The Flaw With "Career Expectations"

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Voice Of Reason

Reading Is Fundamental !
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Posts
1,369
NW/DL (and ultimately affecting ALL of us): The Flaw With "Career Expectations"

Re: Seniority List Integrations, currently NW & DL:
I can't see how they could justify anything OTHER than DOH in a merger of equals, (especially so for the 2008 hires for whom merger talk was ongoing when they elected to take those jobs...why on earth would any from one side be above those on the other side hired before them?). They are now one company of pilots on the same path now.
The ratio lists are all ridiculous too... So right now DL side believes they are what UNITED believed themselves to be several years back (look at THEM now)...
In another venue in the same industry, look what a JOKE NetJets was just a few years ago...now look at them...and they could just as easily go right back where they were. We at FlightOtps used to be the highest paid and fastest growing...now the opposite...It happens over and over again throughout the entire industry.
There is NO logical way to predict "career expectations" in this industry!
THAT said.... I understand (from those posting here anyway) that NW and DL have differences regarding probation and longevity. There is much talk explaining that former NW furloughs get their longevity back (which is good and equal to the DL furloughs)
...but how will these inequities be resolved for those NW guys now on probation? Will recent date of hire DL guys remain with longer longevity than say NW guys hired a couple of months BEFORE them, or will they be made equal citizens like everyone else? If so...will they be given equal citizenship BEFORE an SLI is issued soon (sooner if negotiated), since they seem to not be applying a lot of the integrational issues until "undetermined" dates.
It will make a big difference to those people on your SLI if EVERYONE isn't made "equal" longevity-wise BEFORE the SLI is negotiated or issued.
Also....are both sides using the MOST recent seniority lists with most recent positions held by pilots (this is huge if they DO decide something crazy like "relative position?" (though I don't see how they could when so many people choose lower equip than they can hold due to QOL issues.
This thread isn't for why one side thinks it is better than the other....BTW...enough of those.
Hope your reps are addressing these issues for you and not just the concerns of those not concerned about losing their jobs....
Good luck to all!
 
Re: Seniority List Integrations, currently NW & DL:
I can't see how they could justify anything OTHER than DOH in a merger of equals, (especially so for the 2008 hires for whom merger talk was ongoing when they elected to take those jobs...why on earth would any from one side be above those on the other side hired before them?). They are now one company of pilots on the same path now.
The ratio lists are all ridiculous too... So right now DL side believes they are what UNITED believed themselves to be several years back (look at THEM now)...
In another venue in the same industry, look what a JOKE NetJets was just a few years ago...now look at them...and they could just as easily go right back where they were. We at FlightOtps used to be the highest paid and fastest growing...now the opposite...It happens over and over again throughout the entire industry.
There is NO logical way to predict "career expectations" in this industry!
THAT said.... I understand (from those posting here anyway) that NW and DL have differences regarding probation and longevity. There is much talk explaining that former NW furloughs get their longevity back (which is good and equal to the DL furloughs)
...but how will these inequities be resolved for those NW guys now on probation? Will recent date of hire DL guys remain with longer longevity than say NW guys hired a couple of months BEFORE them, or will they be made equal citizens like everyone else? If so...will they be given equal citizenship BEFORE an SLI is issued soon (sooner if negotiated), since they seem to not be applying a lot of the integrational issues until "undetermined" dates.
It will make a big difference to those people on your SLI if EVERYONE isn't made "equal" longevity-wise BEFORE the SLI is negotiated or issued.
Also....are both sides using the MOST recent seniority lists with most recent positions held by pilots (this is huge if they DO decide something crazy like "relative position?" (though I don't see how they could when so many people choose lower equip than they can hold due to QOL issues.
This thread isn't for why one side thinks it is better than the other....BTW...enough of those.
Hope your reps are addressing these issues for you and not just the concerns of those not concerned about losing their jobs....
Good luck to all!

Ask the USAir East guys if they feel "equal"? The arbitrator didn't care in that case. He did what was right--except for the top 500, he kept everyone in the same percentage as before the merger. He looked at what each airline brought to the table, and then decided. IF we had the same number of planes and pilots, it would be easier to figure out. We don't.

Bye Bye--General Lee
 
Last edited:
Inane and undoubtedly irrelevant and typically nonapplicable message from General Lee is blocked because he is on your ignore list like everyone else's.
 
The only thing your hire date gives you is your relative seniority at the company which hired you. Nothing more, nothing less.

"Relative" ONLY to those hired on the same day, then by birthdate at most places
(or in the case of recent DL, by last 4 of ssn)...Which brings up yet ANOTHER inequity that needs to be resolved (in this case for the benefit of newer DL guys that were given the "age disc" BS within their hire classes and listed by last 4 of ssn UNlike most places)
 
That is strictly your opinion. Just as doh with fences is ours. My guess is a negotiated list somewhere between with everyone a little pissed and there will be segments of both lists very pissed. Good news is we will know in 20-50 days or so....




The only thing your hire date gives you is your relative seniority at the company which hired you. Nothing more, nothing less.
 
That is strictly your opinion. Just as doh with fences is ours. My guess is a negotiated list somewhere between with everyone a little pissed and there will be segments of both lists very pissed. Good news is we will know in 20-50 days or so....


Negotaited list somewhere "between"? You started FAR RIGHT, and we started pretty close to the middle. If that was your plan (ask for something totally ridiculous that even USAIr East didn't get and hope to get the middle ground), then you are probably going to be upset. The end list will probably look a lot like the Nicelau award, since it was the most fair---keep people at a percentage with a few exceptions due to things that are brought to the airline, or to be taken away. You guys can't always bulley your way to an agreement.

Bye Bye--General Lee
 
You started FAR RIGHT, and we started pretty close to the middle.

Not to pick on you General but its that mentality that has put us in arbitration.

A negotiated list will build brotherhood but I think arbitration will treat NWA better. There is no way that the arbitrators could do worse than a 500 pilot staple.
 
That is strictly your opinion. Just as doh with fences is ours. My guess is a negotiated list somewhere between with everyone a little pissed and there will be segments of both lists very pissed. Good news is we will know in 20-50 days or so....

You're right about that. I don't tailor my opinions to what benefits me though. I have believed DOH had no bearing on any merger. I also believe our position to put the DC-9s at the bottom isn't fair. It wasn't what was negotiated in the spring but what happened when DL was forced into arbitration. My opinion only but I believe a straight ratio based on relative seniority will be the best solution in the long run. You're at 50% now, and end up at 50% in the combined company. No bump/flush and short fences to transition then bid what you can hold.

You'll lose on some short term retirements but gain a lot on numbers of larger equipment and bases. DL guys will gain a little on short term retirements but be exposed to the lower paying -9, a possible commute to cold weather, and slower upgrades in warm weather bases. Again, my opinion only.
 

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