Nov 1st NJA? whats up???

[DC-4]

Pervis
Thank you for not spreading rumors none of us need that. Also I understand why you would not use names. I would not want you to anyways, for the same reason I do not. But if you do not mind keep us informed the best you can plz.

 

[gunfyter]

I think there is an even money chance that when recalls happen... We on the line will find out after people being recalled tell us that its happened.

So keep US informed.


That reflects my opinion of the information flow around here.

 

[OPECJet]

There is a rumor that the union is telling active pilots that less than "x" percentage of furloughed pilots would accept a recall.

For the record, IF this is being said, the union would not have this information as furloughed pilots have not been polled. If recall letters went out tomorrow, I'd bank on 60% accepting at a minimum based on what I see on the furloughed message boards.

IF a union official were to tell you this number, PLEASE call bullspit and ask him to cite his source. This is in no way, shape or form is an accusation to the union, just something that needs to be put to bed

 

[BuckMurdock1]

There is a rumor that the union is telling active pilots that less than "x" percentage of furloughed pilots would accept a recall.

For the record, IF this is being said, the union would not have this information as furloughed pilots have not been polled. If recall letters went out tomorrow, I'd bank on 60% accepting at a minimum based on what I see on the furloughed message boards.

IF a union official were to tell you this number, PLEASE call bullspit and ask him to cite his source. This is in no way, shape or form is an accusation to the union, just something that needs to be put to bed

What would be the point of this if true?! The union allowing line pilots to feel less guilty about extending on trips?? The only way to know how many will accept is to actually offer recall.

 

[pilotyip]

There is a rumor that the union is telling active pilots that less than "x" percentage of furloughed pilots would accept a recall.

For the record, IF this is being said, the union would not have this information as furloughed pilots have not been polled. If recall letters went out tomorrow, I'd bank on 60% accepting at a minimum based on what I see on the furloughed message boards.

IF a union official were to tell you this number, PLEASE call bullspit and ask him to cite his source. This is in no way, shape or form is an accusation to the union, just something that needs to be put to bed

100% of the furloughed NJ guys at JUS are planning on accepting recall because is one of the premier jobs in the flying business.

 

[billybob]

I was polled in more than one way!

They did do a poll, and they do have an idea of % of return. I don't know the number but the ebord knows and it would be stupid to say anything durning section 6.

To that end the only way to know is a recall

 

[BuckMurdock1]

I was polled in more than one way!

They did do a poll, and they do have an idea of % of return. I don't know the number but the ebord knows and it would be stupid to say anything durning section 6.

To that end the only way to know is a recall

Oh-- okay; I get it. Union says to MGMT during section 6 negotiations "look; only 10% of the furloughed even want to come back! This job isn't the cheesecake gig it once was! You're behind the times and the industry, so you better pay us more before you have a staffing shortage."

..Something like that?

Sorry-- forgot to think politically and how one side always trys to gain leverage (real or imagined) for a moment. Maybe cause it's Christmas.
Btw, Merry Christmas

 

[VGerect]

Oh-- okay; I get it. Union says to MGMT during section 6 negotiations "look; only 10% of the furloughed even want to come back! This job isn't the cheesecake gig it once was! You're behind the times and the industry, so you better pay us more before you have a staffing shortage."

Buck, I've been thinking along those lines but let me throw out a few other thoughts.

1.) If the Union NC was using this 10% thing to bolster their position at the negotiating table, why would they let it get outside of the NC to the stewards and others?

2.) If the Union NC were considering concessions to the furloughed group in order the make gains for the active group, would you not start by saying that "only 10% are planning to return" in order to justify giving away the furloughed group? i.e.- They're not coming back, so they really don't matter and we shouldn't expend negotiating capital on a few guys who have been gone for 4 years.

3.) Since this 10% issue appears to have started with a union steward holding a very public discussion about this in Denver, why hasn't the union made a statement to the contrary? When a union official speaks publicly, he's representing the union- not his own personal opinion. It would seem that njasap wants this 10% information out there, however they don't want to publicly release survey data.

4.) If any pilots do get recalled, the first group would now be on year 8 pay after 4 years on furlough. If the company could get the union to agree on changing the recall provisions to bring back guys on year 4 pay, there's a monetary value to that. There's an even bigger monetary value to dumping the furloughed guys completely.

5.) The average line pilot would crawl over his dying mother to screw another pilot out of a dollar or a seniority number. I don't trust the average line pilot's intelligence or ethics to discern between negotiating rhetoric and being led to give up junior pilots contractual right for their own personal benefit.

Any other ideas?

 

[BuckMurdock1]

Buck, I've been thinking along those lines but let me throw out a few other thoughts.

1.) If the Union NC was using this 10% thing to bolster their position at the negotiating table, why would they let it get outside of the NC to the stewards and others?

2.) If the Union NC were considering concessions to the furloughed group in order the make gains for the active group, would you not start by saying that "only 10% are planning to return" in order to justify giving away the furloughed group? i.e.- They're not coming back, so they really don't matter and we shouldn't expend negotiating capital on a few guys who have been gone for 4 years.

3.) Since this 10% issue appears to have started with a union steward holding a very public discussion about this in Denver, why hasn't the union made a statement to the contrary? When a union official speaks publicly, he's representing the union- not his own personal opinion. It would seem that njasap wants this 10% information out there, however they don't want to publicly release survey data.

4.) If any pilots do get recalled, the first group would now be on year 8 pay after 4 years on furlough. If the company could get the union to agree on changing the recall provisions to bring back guys on year 4 pay, there's a monetary value to that. There's an even bigger monetary value to dumping the furloughed guys completely.

5.) The average line pilot would crawl over his dying mother to screw another pilot out of a dollar or a seniority number. I don't trust the average line pilot's intelligence or ethics to discern between negotiating rhetoric and being led to give up junior pilots contractual right for their own personal benefit.

Any other ideas?

Wouldn't surprise me in the least if some or all of these scenarios have been floated both internally at NJASAP and perhaps 'backchannel' floated to MGMT. You are damn right that one thing pilots can be assured to do is eat their young. Hate to say it; nature of the beast.
If the above item #4 scenario actually comes to pass, you can be very assured of a sh*tstorm of lawsuits -both individual and class-action- against both NJASAP and NJA. Whether winnable or not, this will be very public in the media and generally not good for NJA's image.
Another thing pilots can be assured to do; not simply lie there whilst getting sh*t on.

 

[billybob]

I don't know what was said with 10%. I don't know the real number but from the guys that have the number "well north of that ". It's over 50% guys but less than 80.

Merry Christmas everyone

Sorry for starting this blasted thread!

 

[BentOver]

Hope the Unions information is more accurate than Rimon and Ward predicting nearly guaranteed more furloughs coming in the Spring of 2012... Remember those good times!! We were talking extended days and 18 day schedules, they were talking more furloughs.......

Whatever happened to those guys and that arrogant SOB Timko?

 

[av8trinabarrel]

Oh-- okay; I get it. Union says to MGMT during section 6 negotiations "look; only 10% of the furloughed even want to come back! This job isn't the cheesecake gig it once was! You're behind the times and the industry, so you better pay us more before you have a staffing shortage."

..Something like that?

Sorry-- forgot to think politically and how one side always trys to gain leverage (real or imagined) for a moment. Maybe cause it's Christmas.
Btw, Merry Christmas

Jackpot!!!

Now the union pretends to deny this 10% BS rumor isn't a union problem, but simply a union rep stating his opinionuke: They negotiate a pay raise and all the while stating to management and line pilots that all the furloughs have moved on. Lets not waste any more precious resources on a group that has no plans to return. Nice and clean and nobody gets hurt......except the 495 that have been shafted from day one in this whole debacle!!!!!

Every time someone brings this up on our furlough page, our two remaining reps give the same canned answer. "We have no plans to negotiate away your rights AT THIS TIME". A hell no, we wont accept anything less than your return if you like would be an answer I would and should accept.

Be glad you left. I am finishing up a 2nd degree and will flood the market in 4 weeks when I graduate. I hope one day to look back and realize this NJ nightmare was merely a speed bump in my road to happiness!!

 

[pilotyip]

Jackpot!!!

They negotiate a pay raise and all the while stating to management and line pilots that all the furloughs have moved on. Lets not waste any more precious resources on a group that has no plans to return. Nice and clean and nobody gets hurt......except the 495 that have been shafted from day one in this whole debacle!!!!!

You mean the senior people in the union don't look out for the junior guys in the union. What about the brotherhood we hear about all the time?

 

[Xcorporate]

It is ironic that the union's behavior has probably created 500 very pro management pilots. IF we ever come back it will certainly weaken the union. I know my respect for the entire operation has dropped dramatically.

Amateur hour from day one....

 

[gutshotdraw]

Whatever happened to those guys and that arrogant SOB Timko?

Oh, he's pi$$ing away a little more union money filing charges against the EBoard for firing him....somehow thinks he's indispensible. Sadly, he's brainwashed a small, vocal cabal into believing it too.

 

[BentOver]

Oh, he's pi$$ing away a little more union money filing charges against the EBoard for firing him....somehow thinks he's indispensible. Sadly, he's brainwashed a small, vocal cabal into believing it too.

On more than one occasion that guy almost went as far as telling us we are clueless... I'd personally be happy if he'd lose a chin or two so he'd atleast "look" healthy.

The kicker was him saying he's glad we didn't have access to the regular msg board because of the turmoil it would have caused... When we quickly responded by saying "wait, we thought it was a legal position NOT to allow access!" he quickly tried to worm his way out of his statement.. If anyone wants to point a finger at Union officials for any future disgruntlement amongst recallees.. I vote for him..

FYI: I am not returning, but find NJA stuff still interesting to read/comment

 

[billybob]

I think they have made a block of 500 guys that will be bent on both kicking mgt. and the Eboard in the nuts. Help us all if one of the 495 runs for office. He would get my vote just to watch!

 

[VGerect]

I think they have made a block of 500 guys that will be bent on both kicking mgt. and the Eboard in the nuts. Help us all if one of the 495 runs for office. He would get my vote just to watch!

Amen brother !

 

[T-1GUY]

I have to believe a recall is coming sooner than later. I'm thinking this spring. We will not have a TA in place prior to recalls. You will get to voice your opinion in the form of a vote. I think the majority of the guys really care what happens to the furloughed pilots. We are also seeing pilots go back to their airline gigs. Your time is coming. I will be there to welcome you back. Just my personal opinion, I dont believe we will see more than 30 percent come back. I think everyone should say "hell yeah, I'm coming back". I would play these cards close to my vest. You don't have to quit until the last LOA is turned down. I think a new type at the expense of an A$$hole management team just before taking an airline gig might be good sauce for the gander

 

[johnsonrod]

What is happening with natural attention and the impact on staffing? I assume some pilots (especially low seniority FOs with very long upgrade times) are leaving as airline slots open up. What happens if another 20 FOs leave for the airlines?

 

[amaineiac]

I think the majority of the guys really care what happens to the furloughed pilots.

Unless you're the union president. Apparently he cares so little, we're not even worth a mention in the year end wrap up. Never thought I would miss ALPA, but at least they have enough class to remember the guys they have on the street.

 

[DC-4]

Unless you're the union president. Apparently he cares so little, we're not even worth a mention in the year end wrap up. Never thought I would miss ALPA, but at least they have enough class to remember the guys they have on the street.

Well said my friend. I think it's about time all carriers and pilots who are unionized know how this union has treated the fourloughed. I think any union who has any pride in there pilots would be ashamed to have any dealings wig njasap due to there treatment of there so called brothers and sisters.

 

[av8trinabarrel]

Well said my friend. I think it's about time all carriers and pilots who are unionized know how this union has treated the fourloughed. I think any union who has any pride in there pilots would be ashamed to have any dealings wig njasap due to there treatment of there so called brothers and sisters.

I think the bigger question should be what legal recourse do we the 460 have when our beloved NJASAP kicks us down the river for a pay raise for the active group? It's painfully obvious where we stand in this group. Whenever this subject is brought up, all you hear is "we have no intentions of negotiating away your right AT THIS TIME." Time will tell.....

 

[Xcorporate]

We have no legal recourse. Unless we want to organize ourselves, pay a lot of money to gain legal representation, and fight. But what could we win? Watered down career expectations, less than ideal working conditions, long term financial LOSS. I believe that NJASAP has a few individuals that are about to profit handsomely for how they are "running" the union. Surely the company is willing to "invest" in certain union behavior.

I think that if you're not a captain right now at NJA you're better off using your energy to find a new career path. These guys aren't worth the bylaws they are written on.....

just my opinion...

 

[gunfyter]

What would constitute a kick down the river. I haven't heard if anything proposed or in the works.

 

[BentOver]

I think the bigger question should be what legal recourse do we the 460 have when our beloved NJASAP kicks us down the river for a pay raise for the active group? It's painfully obvious where we stand in this group. Whenever this subject is brought up, all you hear is "we have no intentions of negotiating away your right AT THIS TIME." Time will tell.....

Sounds like things have been interesting over on the furloughed side of the web... Have they really added an "at this time" to their canned response?

I seem to remember a few years ago it was more of a "over my dead body would we sell the furloughees down the river"...has it really gotten watered down to "at this time"

That sounds more like "if the right deal comes along for the entitled top, we'd give away many important rights of the furloughed to secure say...10/250.." (which IMO will be more like 10/200)

 

[DC-4]

Interesting is telling the union about people saying only 10 percent of furloughed pilots are returning. Then the union telling us it's all just rumors and without names and places there is nothing they can do. Fair enough. Then we tell them that mark Romer a union official was in Denver telling crews that the union believes less then 10 percent is returning. Now the unions line is. The union has not taken a position on this so it's just his opinion and there is not thing they can do. Since mark is just stating his opinion while acting as a union official.

 

[acaTerry]

I think the bigger question should be what legal recourse do we the 460 have when our beloved NJASAP kicks us down the river for a pay raise for the active group? It's painfully obvious where we stand in this group. Whenever this subject is brought up, all you hear is "we have no intentions of negotiating away your right AT THIS TIME." Time will tell.....

Why wouldn't you want to come back to a better contract?

 

[BORG]

Why wouldn't you want to come back to a better contract?

He's referring to the potential bargaining away of our recall rights and/or longevity in order to achieve pay raises for the active group all while we can't vote.

If that occurs, whatever "better contract" is in place is irrelevant for us.

 

[av8trinabarrel]

Why wouldn't you want to come back to a better contract?

You obviously haven't been exposed to the antics this union has showed towards us over the last 4 years. The list is long and distinguished. I think someone on our furlough site put it well. "amateur hour at its finest".

I would love to return to any contract at this rate, but I think most of us realize at this point the union will sell us out quicker than you can shake a stick if a big raise is being dangled from management. I hope I'm wrong, but NJASAP is making ALPA look like choir boys more and more everyday.