Notes on Atkin's visit to ASA crew lounge...

[theo]

Its all about propaganda. If Jerry did not go and talk to the pilots. The same people claiming that no one should go listen or ask questions or talk to him, would be saying he has no respect for the pilots if he did he would at least come and speak to us so he could get the real truth, and we could discuss things with mutual respect, etc etc.

Admit it guys you have your agenda just like he does. Most intelligent people will try to wade through the BS and arrive at a reasoned opinion on whatever the issues are for them. That is the best reason to go talk with Jerry as well as the MEC. Then you will be informed. Blindly putting your faith in either side is foolish and will likely become more fodder for bitching and griping on Internet sites like this in the future.

 

[rjcap]

Rjcap,

Glad I was done with my coffee before I read that! Perhaps a bit harsh, but I can certainly appreciate that. You must be a Yankee, our Southern brethren always get upset with our rather cold sense of humor up north. Although if, purely by chance, you are correct, I'm pretty sure he does have the right to alter your anatomy.

79%N1,

I'm fairly certain he was just teasing him. It's really a form of endearment some places. In the northeast if people aren't teasing you, it means they don't like you. Like my father always told me, "only tease people you like otherwise things can get pretty ugly, pretty fast." *Disclaimer* See last sentence written to Rjcap above*

-Blucher:laugh:

BLucher you must be a Yankee yourself.

The above comment was made in jest. I still feel it was appropriate considering the circumstances. However, as agentlemen I have withdrawn it in good faith so as not to upset you fragile Southerners.

One other point. Gentlemen, don't bring your family members into a lively debate. Your just asking for it !

 

[Blucher]

BLucher you must be a Yankee yourself.

The above comment was made in jest. I still feel it was appropriate considering the circumstances. However, as agentlemen I have withdrawn it in good faith so as not to upset you fragile Southerners.

One other point. Gentlemen, don't bring your family members into a lively debate. Your just asking for it !

Yep, and darned (not the word I wanted to use, but I know they'll edit it) proud of it. Although I doubt I'd get all excited if they wanted to change the state flag up there.:laugh:
I'd agree with your statement above: To all: if something/someone is off limits, don't bring into the argument. Once it's in, no backsies!
Also, if you find yourself really getting upset about an argument on this board, step away from the computer! Don't take this stuff too personally, it's not personal. Sometimes people just say things in the heat of an argument. It doesn't mean they're a bad person, nor does it mean they think you're a bad person. Learn to distance yourself a bit, it will make you a much better debater. Perhaps, after some practice, you'll even become a "master-debater."

-Blucher:beer:

 

[CRJ's suck]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but from the outside looking in, it seems like a few guys over at ASA won't be happy even if they get everything they want. Some of you are so negative.

 

[Ganja60Heavy]

it seems like a few guys over at ASA won't be happy even if they get everything they want. Some of you are so negative.

If it didn't totally suck balls, if they weren't out to get us, make our lives miserable, screw us on the contract, whipsaw the sh!t out of us, treat us like crap, take away our bennies, and take huge management bonuses out of our pockets.......

......we wouldn't be so negative.

 

["GO AROUND"]

Since you were called in on a NAP your pretty junior around here. I always love it how you junior guys are such experts on negotiations. You will be the first ones to sell us out.

Regarding the 70 seater, Bulcher responded accurately to that.

Meeeeow! Here P*ssy, P*ssy, P*ssy.... Don't hide behind being a gentleman, if you're gonna say something like that then don't puss out and edit it out. I was wrong, maybe you're like a teenager that has to result to vulgar insults when someone says something you can't dispute cause you can't make your point otherwise.

No, I'm not junior I just bid nap reserve a few months ago to get certain days off and I liked the time off with my family. I flew 7 naps last month and I will bid a line again when reserve gets worse. Did you have 23 days off last month oh senior one with 4000+ hrs? But I guess 6 yrs is junior to you.

I was involved in two strike deadlines after being released at a previous carrier and now am involved as a P2P and volunteering at the Strike center at ASA. I have never professed to be an expert on negotiations unlike your expertise on what should and will happen at ASA.

 

[CRJ's suck]

Ganja60heavy: If it didn't totally suck balls, if they weren't out to get us, make our lives miserable, screw us on the contract, whipsaw the sh!t out of us, treat us like crap, take away our bennies, and take huge management bonuses out of our pockets.......

......we wouldn't be so negative.

Funny, at my last job they did all of that too (except for the whipsaw) and I hated it. Guess what I did, I left. Had to start over from the bottom at a new place but I took my services elswhere. Yeah I started off making a few dollars less an hour, but my QOL was greatly improved. Have you ever thought of doing something like that???

 

[rjcap]

Meeeeow! Here P*ssy, P*ssy, P*ssy.... Don't hide behind being a gentleman, if you're gonna say something like that then don't puss out and edit it out. I was wrong, maybe you're like a teenager that has to result to vulgar insults when someone says something you can't dispute cause you can't make your point otherwise.

I editied the previous post due to the objections of the readers on this board. However, you are such an irritating condensending jerk I regret it. I believe you are the one that initiated the "teenager like" insults. Throwing your 2 year old son into the mix was not very mature either.

No, I'm not junior I just bid nap reserve a few months ago to get certain days off and I liked the time off with my family. I flew 7 naps last month and I will bid a line again when reserve gets worse. Did you have 23 days off last month oh senior one with 4000+ hrs? But I guess 6 yrs is junior to you.

I don't edit my profile and yes you are junior.

Do you remember the sht storm that was ASA in 1997/1998 during the previous contract ???? After that and the last 3.5 years I think I am very qualified to state my opinions on the current situation.

The current contract was only achieved when it was apparent that the airline was going to shutdown. Thats what did it, nothing else.

I was involved in two strike deadlines after being released at a previous carrier and now am involved as a P2P and volunteering at the Strike center at ASA. I have never professed to be an expert on negotiations unlike your expertise on what should and will happen at ASA.

This makes no sense to me. If you are that actively involved then whay are you so pro mgmt??



Thanks for your follow up post. You have proven my point.

 

["GO AROUND"]

rjcap,

You're comparing me saying you were acting like a 2 yr old to you calling my son a little bastard? That proves my point as well. That's how your post read, not an insult just an observation/opinion. You making a comment about my son and you don't know me or him, that's a personal attck from an immature prick that has no basis. Not a gentleman.

People called you out for the D*ck that you are and you agreed and edited your post. Am I wrong? Ask them.

I may be junior to you but being senior to 1000 pilots is not junior at ASA.

The pilot group and situation at TSA in 99 was as bad or worse than at ASA in 98.

Look at my posts past and present and ask around here and you will see that I am far from pro managment. I support my union and my fellow pilots and am very qualified to state my opinions on here.

You're a angry prick. Just my opinion.

 

[rjcap]

I'm going to kick a dead horse one more time.

rjcap,

You're comparing me saying you were acting like a 2 yr old to you calling my son a little bastard? That proves my point as well. That's how your post read, not an insult just an observation/opinion. You making a comment about my son and you don't know me or him, that's a personal attck from an immature prick that has no basis. Not a gentleman.

People called you out for the D*ck that you are and you agreed and edited your post. Am I wrong? Ask them.

You threw the first barb back on post #4 because you didn't like what I said in my translation of the mgmt bllsht session. You lashed out and started insulting me. You continued being a condensending jckas in every post until you didn't like the fact that I threw your own insults back at you and made it a little more personal. If you can't take the heat then get out of the kitchen.

Regarding editing my comments because they may have been considered too harsh, I won't make that mistake again. I'll just let the moderators ban me.

I may be junior to you but being senior to 1000 pilots is not junior at ASA.

My reference is to your easily manipulated attitude towards another management initiative to con us into a pay cut. I agree JA is a tremendously better manager then our current CEO. However, he is here to get our costs down no matter what. Manipulating the facts to his benefit and our detriment is his game plan.

The pilot group and situation at TSA in 99 was as bad or worse than at ASA in 98.

I understand TSA was a rough place to work. I had some friends there and they didn't like it. Once again, why are you falling for the mgmt two step ???

Look at my posts past and present and ask around here and you will see that I am far from pro managment. I support my union and my fellow pilots and am very qualified to state my opinions on here.

I see inconsisitency. On one hand you are adament about changing the situation around here. Then you become soft because Jerry comes to town and tells you what you want to hear.

You're a angry prick. Just my opinion.

Your gdmn right !!! Aren't you. We are on year 8 of a 4 year contract that was signed in 1998. Its bad enough that the we are showing very little progress on the current contract but even worse that the company has so blatantly vilolated the previous one. When does this end ??

Whatever we sign we will be stuck with for another 8 years? While the company is making record profits will we see any of this ?? Profit sharing has worked well for Skywest but profit sharing at ASA? Do you really have that kind of trust in mgmt ?

I'm like everybody else. I want to go to work and have a set of working guidelines that don't allow for uncontrolled manipultion by that freak show known as crew scheduling !

Should I not be pissed ?

 

[Ganja60Heavy]

Atkins: <<It was put out there that what if that (ie: paycuts) is not acceptable to our pilot group what would happen? "ASA would shrink" >>

This means whipsaw.

How else would a CEO so confidently say he would reduce service of his own company?!!

That would be like McDonald's CEO saying to his burger-flippers "if you don't take a paycut, we're gonna grill fewer hamburgers and refer customers to Wendy's"

Only the market determines demand, and the resulting growth/shrinkage, of a company. But a CEO who plans to grow/shrink divisions of his own company, independent of market demand, clearly has the intention of playing one division off of the other.

 

[rjcap]

Atkins: <<It was put out there that what if that (ie: paycuts) is not acceptable to our pilot group what would happen? "ASA would shrink" >>

This means whipsaw.

How else would a CEO so confidently say he would reduce service of his own company?!!

That would be like McDonald's CEO saying to his burger-flippers "if you don't take a paycut, we're gonna grill fewer hamburgers and refer customers to Wendy's"

Only the market determines demand, and the resulting growth/shrinkage, of a company. But a CEO who plans to grow/shrink divisions of his own company, independent of market demand, clearly has the intention of playing one division off of the other.

Thankyou. Thankyou very much!!

These little get togethers are for one purpose. Plant the seeds of doubt in the minds of the pilots that just maybe;

our 70 seat rates are too high.

we need to freeze the pay rates across the board.

scheduling changes are not appropriate at this time.

We need to compete with Mesa.

In general you guys need to accept a concessionary contract.


Next in the mgmt game plan will be twofold.

1. You will see this line of concessionary reasoning repeated in company postings, FLICA and by the CP's. Suttle reinforcement.

2. A few more mgmt changes in addition to announcements about up and coming operational improvements. No specific dates when anything will happen but just more "good" stuff to look forward to.

I know. I'm just an angry prick.

 

[D'Angelo]

Yeah, that'd work. Then you would sue when you needed medical assistance, or legal assistance, and it was denied to you because you never wanted to pay for yourself.

Actually I wouldn't. I would be gambling and if I lost then its my fault. If I won however then I didnt just blow a careers worth of 2% of my paycheck on nothing. The union however simply walks into class and doesn't give you the choice of joining. Its pay dues or else. If they were really confident in themselves they would give the option of either joining or not. I wonder what it costs to just pay the "maintenance fees" for the contract.

 

[sweptback]

The union however simply walks into class and doesn't give you the choice of joining.

Your choice of joining occurred before you took the job.

 

[atlcrashpad]

Yo D' Angelo,

The union is more than just the group you pay dues to. They have a vast amount of resources that can help you if your career is ever in jeopardy.

ALPA medical staff helped me with an issue that could have grounded me had I not gotten the proper paperwork to my Doc. I used to think it was the most expensive magazine subscription, but my mind has changed.

 

[Illinois]

Atkins: <<It was put out there that what if that (ie: paycuts) is not acceptable to our pilot group what would happen? "ASA would shrink" >>

This means whipsaw.

How else would a CEO so confidently say he would reduce service of his own company?!!

That would be like McDonald's CEO saying to his burger-flippers "if you don't take a paycut, we're gonna grill fewer hamburgers and refer customers to Wendy's"

Only the market determines demand, and the resulting growth/shrinkage, of a company. But a CEO who plans to grow/shrink divisions of his own company, independent of market demand, clearly has the intention of playing one division off of the other.

ASA would shrink, but SKYW Inc. would not. The 700 rates at ASA will come down or Jerry and the boys are going to slowly shift CR7 flying to Skywest Airlines.

Atkin isn't trying to scare you by saying this. It makes sense from his standpoint. He is suppose to grow the parent company. If he can't do that with the 700 at ASA he will grow Skywest's 700 fleet. (Save it, General Lee...I agree with you!) Jerry doesn't care what uniform you or I wear. Hell, he doesn't even keep track of any cost or operational stuff day-to-day. He's strategic, and is honestly telling you how he sees it. You guy's screaming "burn the house down" are wasting your breath. Allowing ASA to fly the 700 at a rate that can't attract new flying is something JA won't agree to. That's burning the house down from his perspective.

Skywest and ASA pilot's must merge if either of us want some control over our collective future.

 

[79%N1]

ASA would shrink, but SKYW Inc. would not. The 700 rates at ASA will come down or Jerry and the boys are going to slowly shift CR7 flying to Skywest Airlines.

Atkin isn't trying to scare you by saying this. It makes sense from his standpoint. He is suppose to grow the parent company. If he can't do that with the 700 at ASA he will grow Skywest's 700 fleet. (Save it, General Lee...I agree with you!) Jerry doesn't care what uniform you or I wear. Hell, he doesn't even keep track of any cost or operational stuff day-to-day. He's strategic, and is honestly telling you how he sees it. You guy's screaming "burn the house down" are wasting your breath. Allowing ASA to fly the 700 at a rate that can't attract new flying is something JA won't agree to. That's burning the house down from his perspective.

Skywest and ASA pilot's must merge if either of us want some countrol over our collective future.

Unfortunately, I think that is dead on! And yes....that is a whipsaw, Jerry. On the one hand, I don't want to earn less than the 39/hr I earn now ---- and I certainly can't afford to. I most certainly believe the job is worth more in a fair world. But, this is not a fair world. What gets me are the many very senior pilots I fly with and talk to. THeir position, and rightfully so, is that 'forget the growth. Who needs it. Keep your growth, I'll keep my money.' That is great for them. But, for me, more airplanes means a chance to move to the left seat, which is worth about $20,000/year, whereas a $1-$2/hr raise as an FO means another $1,000-2,000/year. So, no, I dont want to stagnate, and I dont think many line-holding Capts can claim they felt the same when they were FO's. Many of you upgraded in 1-2 years, so it is unfair to tell 4-5 year FO's that we shouldnt want the growth, but I hear it all the time. "Who needs growth, lets keep what we got, let 'em take our planes!" Don't peg me as a company-man, kool-aid drinker. I am not. I am willing to walk away from this job if we do not improve our contract. I'll be walking with the rest of you, I support my CNC, and want what is best for the whole group. I'm just giving you another view to consider. We need to remember, we all want different things. I want the senior guys capped out to get a raise, but it won't hurt them if we lose a dozen or so 700's. They will still be top-end Captains. I want a fair contract, that allows us to grow so I can earn 40% more than I do now.

 

[Ganja60Heavy]

I want a fair contract, that allows us to grow so I can earn 40% more than I do now.

"Fair"? This is business. JA cares about only 1 thing....profit. NOT fairness, nor anything else.

People seem surprised "hey, we're making a profit and they still want us to take paycuts."

That's not how it works.

The plantation owners did NOT say "It's not fair we chain these slaves up and work 'em for free while we make a profit....let's just let 'em go free"

Nope.

They will cut our pay to ZERO if we let them.

It's about who's willing to work for what money. It's about fools believing what liars promise (ie: Comair's "pay freeze for growth").

 

[79%N1]

I agree with all you said. Yes, they are earning profits. BUT, I am saying that I believe JA when he says ASA will not grow at our 700 cost. They can and will transfer them to SKYW, and save a few bucks, increase profits. That said, I for one, WILL NOT fly for Mesa-like slave wages! I WILL leave this profession. I was just saying, holding them to big pay raises, and losing what we have may not be the answer. I dont like it any more than anyone else.

 

[79%N1]

duplicate

 

[~~~^~~~]

* As far as the 8% goes, he is talking adding 4.5% profit sharing (which would have been 4.6% over the last 6 months if anyone is splitting hairs) so the net change is -3.5%.

* I'm a fleet watcher - ASA was in line for 22 airframes under the previous order from Bombardier. 5 of those have gone to SkyWest and 17 are still up for grabs. We have something like 12 ATR's that are going away and Mr. Atkin has said before that he would like to swap those in such a way that it causes a minimal disruption (displacement) at ASA.

* This is the first time I've ever seen the President of our Parent Company in our crew lounge talking one on one with pilots (without the minons, handlers, or a room full of V.P.'s to stack the deck). Jerry Atkin's patience is impressive, as his his forbearance. Call me a suck up, but when a guy goes from an operation with a couple of Navajos to a market cap of 1.6 Billion he has my respect. Yet - I saw pilots call him a liar, say that they did not trust him, or management, then when he asked them for examples Pilots said "D'uh I dunno, no reason I guess." That is down right stupid. If pilots are going into a meeting with someone like that and are fool enough to open your mouth, pilots and your pilot group are best served if you have something intelligent to say. Someone could have mentioned how the 18 month deal for a 70 seat pay rate got passed over at SkyWest, or mentioned some of shennanigans Scott Young, Gary Hall, Nelson Debardeleben or Goat Boy have pulled - but no - people opened their big mouth and sounded like misinformed idiots.

* Jerry Atkin is holding the line on pass benefits at ASA - you can bet nobody else would. Brian LaBreque can afford to buy his tickets. (Perhaps we should make this part of our contract - it is compensation as far as I'm concerned)

* Today we got a message from our Crew Planning Manager with his personal e-mail address saying he wants reduction of sit times, less deadheading, pure lines and better distribution of block times. The memo included an explanation of the new tools they are going to test to accomplish these goals. He put his personal e-mail address at the bottom of the page! This is not the ASA I've worked at for for years.

I don't know how the issue with the training department's costs can be resolved. We ask a lot and get a lot from our IP's. They also have the power to shut this airline down (what if no one completes a training event for a couple of months - not a failure, just an incomplete?)

This deal is far from over, but Jerry Atkin impressed me in the crew lounge. The acceptance of an ASAP program and what appears to be a sincere attempt at fixing our schedules go a long way to impress me.

 

[Going2Baja]

Jerry is a stand up guy. Pres of SkyW at 24 - think about it! I bet you a dollar that he would reply if you send that email as well. I know for a fact that he answered his phone if you called his extension and would talk to you if he had the time.

Good luck - Baja.

 

[Mercyful Fate]

Be glad that Jerry is running the show now. The man knows this business, and hasnt lost touch with reality. Sounds like regardless of what happens, some of the thinking from the ASA guys will never change. Jerry has a huge task of turning this thing around, and it isnt going to happen overnight. Be patient guys....

 

[Tim47SIP]

Help!

Someone please explain something to me. I understand that in order to bid on an RFP that our CASM needs to be in the competitive arena. I have also read here that since BL threw in all of the 70 seat IP's, our 70 cost is to high to compete but our 50 seat cost is just right. HOW can you take out the IP costs and lower a CASM and still have to pay those individuals? Is our CASM made up of the total costs of the company or is it the cost to fly the aircraft minus the infrastructure to support the aircraft? I dont see how we can take the IP's out of the equation when they are part of the infrastructure??

Just trying to get smarter concerning this subject. Thanks.

 

[sweptback]

Someone please explain something to me. I understand that in order to bid on an RFP that our CASM needs to be in the competitive arena. I have also read here that since BL threw in all of the 70 seat IP's, our 70 cost is to high to compete but our 50 seat cost is just right. HOW can you take out the IP costs and lower a CASM and still have to pay those individuals? Is our CASM made up of the total costs of the company or is it the cost to fly the aircraft minus the infrastructure to support the aircraft? I dont see how we can take the IP's out of the equation when they are part of the infrastructure??

Just trying to get smarter concerning this subject. Thanks.

The IPs would be counted as a separate training or management item, rather as a direct cost of airplane operation. The costs would still have to be accounted for, but it would be in a different category. Just an example of how numbers can be manipulated to show whatever you want them to.

 

[rjcap]

Someone please explain something to me. I understand that in order to bid on an RFP that our CASM needs to be in the competitive arena. I have also read here that since BL threw in all of the 70 seat IP's, our 70 cost is to high to compete but our 50 seat cost is just right. HOW can you take out the IP costs and lower a CASM and still have to pay those individuals? Is our CASM made up of the total costs of the company or is it the cost to fly the aircraft minus the infrastructure to support the aircraft? I dont see how we can take the IP's out of the equation when they are part of the infrastructure??

Just trying to get smarter concerning this subject. Thanks.

Here is another way to look at it.

If you have 32 or so 700's how many 700 IP's do you need to satisfy training needs ??

Our IP's are paid based on the a/c they can hold seniority wise. Since the majority of all the IP's can hold the 700 that is what rate they are paid on. Its not based on need but what a/c they could hold if they were on the line. This is a skewed method of determining the 700 cost by including these IP's.

I have come across another issue that I am not clear on. While reviewing the Skywest 200 payrates my interpretation was that they are greater then the 200 rates at ASA. Adding the profit sharing to that rate would inflate the total rate above what our 700 pay rates are. If this is the case then how is ASA's 700 rates above the flat rate ( 200 and 700 ) at Skywest??

There are many questions about all this "concessionary talk" that are not clear. Unfortunately, BL's handling of the contract issue since the acquisition of ASA by Skywest has further angered and confused the pilots.

 

[~~~^~~~]

RJ Cap - you are correct. The difference appears to be the way costs are allocated at ASA. The fact that other airlines use non seniority list IP's for ground and sim training surely has a lot to do with it. Delta had $300,000 pilots being trained by $50,000 IP's. Here we have $60K Captains getting paid by $120K IP's. It has to skew the numbers.

I don't look forward to the change because we have a very good training department here. You get what you pay for.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

Go Around-

Being in a similar boat I definately sympathize with you. I too need upgrade for the pay. More airplanes would get me that opportunity. However, when you say that you will not work for Mesa wages you actually contradict yourself. Taking this round of paycuts puts the whipsaw back on the Skywest pilots. What's to stop us in our race to Mesa wages causing you to "walk away?"

Pilots negotiate for pay, not for airplanes and equipment. ASA made a profit and continues to do so; we deserve fair remuneration, not a concession!

 

[HoserASA]

From another thread on flightinfo (CMR thread):

To refute your point, check this: AWAC just installed a 2-4.4% hourly wage increase our union negotiated as part of our original concession to United. We have an annual wage adjustment clause that compares the average of the six largest independent regionals to our pay year by year, and puts us at the avg. +2% if we're not at or above there already. Not trying to brag but our group does feel a little better these days. Every RJ group out there could have something similar.

Also, our MEC passed on word that Pinnacle's MEC is refusing to negotiate work rules changes and pay cuts, and no TA involving concessions will be given to the pilots to vote on. Mesaba is threatening to strike and will do so in the face of a forced 20% pay cut.

Hoser

 

[HoserASA]

Jerry says he wants an 8% cut on the 70. Apparently he's using three low regionals as an average instead of what AWAC uses, six largest! Maybe Jerry ought to raise the 50 rate to match SKW if he wants the cut in 70 rates. It's gonna get interesting.

Hoser