Northwest Airlines Files 1113

[Sleepyhead]

just wondering where you got the "51 days" from?
My company is in BK and the ALPA Nation rep told us we have 10 days berfore the hearing once they file an 1113C and the clock starts ticking the minute they file and includes weekends.

 

[Ty Webb]

You can either take what the judge has handed down or you can exercise your right to immediate self help and shut the airline down, playing a very dangerous bluff with management that they'll come back and give you more (incidentally, this tactic has shut down EVERY AIRLINE THAT HAS TRIED IT).

I don't recall any major airlines suffering this fate, not in my lifetime . . . . How about naming those airlines, and the source for that information.

And, yes, I realize you didn't say "major airline" but if you want to make a comparison, it should be relevant to NWA.

 

[B6Driver]

Eastern Airlines?

 

[Ty Webb]

Eastern Airlines?

Not even close to the same scenario as NWA. Read "Hard Landings, the History of the Airlines" and see if your comparison is even remotely similar.

Next contestant . . . . . .

 

[PCL_128]

just wondering where you got the "51 days" from?
My company is in BK and the ALPA Nation rep told us we have 10 days berfore the hearing once they file an 1113C and the clock starts ticking the minute they file and includes weekends.

There will be several hearings between the judge and management's lawyers during the 51 day period, but the judge will not make any decisions about voiding contracts or imposing terms until 44-51 days after the 1113(c) filing. Until then, the unions have the ability to negotiate with management in an attempt to come to some sort of agreement.

As for the right to strike should a judge void the contract or impose the company's offer, that is somewhat debateable. ALPA Legal does have legal briefs prepared in case it comes to that, but management is adament that the RLA does not allow self-help in these cases. It's never been tested in court before, so it could cut either way depending on how lucky you get with judges. It's possible that the judge could order the workers back to work.

 

[FDJ2]

One last time: the BOTTOM LINE is that the 1113(c) filing sets a HARD DEADLINE of 51 days to NEGOTIATE (which is what's going on at Hawaiian and what NWA will start doing now). The pilots (and other labor) are on the losing side of this bargaining table because, if they cannot come to an agreement, the JUDGE imposes new contract limitations OR throws the contract out altogether and comes up with his own idea of fair compensation.

Again, not necessarily true. First of all, the Hawaiian pilots are no longer in negotiations, or Ch11, but when they were, they shot down the TA which came out of their section 1113 negotiations. Second, it is not a HARD DEADLINE of 51 days. After 51 days the court will rule on the application to reject the CBA, UNLESS, there is agreement to extend this period. This is what happened at Hawaiian. Third, the judge made it obvious to both sides that it would be best for both parties to negotiate in "good faith" and achieve only the "necessary" modifications to permit reorganization and assure "fair and equitable" treatment of all parties. The bottomline is that management was not able to cram unreasonable terms down the throat of the Hawaiian pilots and they ended up with a far better PWA then what was originally proposed with an amendable date in 2007.

Certainly Section 1113 filings put labor at a disadvantage, but it is not necessarily a "take it, or leave it" deal. Everyone who has been in Ch11 has their horror stories, but you don't necessarily have to be a victim of a management over reach. Each pilot group and each airline is different, with different circumstances and outcomes while in Ch11. Perhaps we are just discussing semantics here, in which case we could go on and on. I'll leave you the last word on the subject.

 

[FDJ2]

Eastern Airlines?

Different Ch11 laws, different times, different circumstances.

 

[FDJ2]

just wondering where you got the "51 days" from?
My company is in BK and the ALPA Nation rep told us we have 10 days berfore the hearing once they file an 1113C and the clock starts ticking the minute they file and includes weekends.

Hearing within 14 days of application. Can be extended by 7 days by the court. The court will rule on the application within 30 days of the hearing. Can be extended by mutual agreement. Clear as mud.

 

[Dan Roman]

Another thing to consider when comparing the results that Hawaiian got. As FDJ2 said, each case is different, In Hawaiian's case, it was producing strong operating profits throughout the BK and very little was being disputed. Just the leases and the need to secure a viable retirement for the pilots, (everyone else was in a 401K). Hawaiians case was an abuse of the system by the preveous owner (for which he lost control of the airline). If management can prove the things they ask for are critical to it's survival I'm sure you would have a diferent result than what Hawaiian experienced.

 

[Lear70]

I don't recall any major airlines suffering this fate, not in my lifetime . . . . How about naming those airlines, and the source for that information.

I should have been more specific. Every airline that I can think of (majors included) where employees have walked off the job and operations ceased rather than continue to work through negotiations has closed up shop permanently. This scenario at the end of a 1113(c) filing wouldn't be any different.

If YOU can find ANY relief in the bankruptcy code for employees TURNING DOWN a judge's final ruling and continuing to operate how they pleased, please post it here citing the actual Federal Code.

FDJ2, I believe we're talking semantics, and I agree with much of what you are saying; no employee group SHOULD just "bend over and take it" to whatever the company wants but, at the same time, those employees should bear in mind that IF the union draws too hard a stance and IF the two groups can't come to terms (which is the scenario I've been talking about), the judge WILL rule and it WILL be "take it or leave it".

Although the other carriers in RECENT years going through this process HAVE come to an agreement prior to that, it would be foolish of any employee going through this not to remember what CAN happen if they reject all of management's offers in the negotiating period and it goes to the judge for final ruling.

Hawaiian is a perfect example of BOTH SIDES requesting the judge extend the time which is perfectly legal. Does anyone see NWA doing that with their ultra-aggressive pattern of bargaining? I don't.

I believe it truly sucks, but that's the system.

 

[Sleepyhead]

If YOU can find ANY relief in the bankruptcy code for employees TURNING DOWN a judge's final ruling and continuing to operate how they pleased, please post it here citing the actual Federal Code.

There are no examples because a judge has never granted an 1113C motion.

That is why there are different opinions as to what happens if the 1113C is granted by the judge. The company says the employees can't strike. ALPA reps told our group (Aloha)they are not sure if we could or not, It has never been tested in court. Many lawyers seem to think it would go something like this: judge grants 1113C and voids contract, employees go on strike, company petitions the judge to stop strike, judge orders strike illegal, company fires anyone not returning to work.

Aloha is now in the same situtation as NW. Today the judge granted a company motion and set a hearing date for 1113c pleadings on Oct 28.

 

[Lear70]

There are no examples because a judge has never granted an 1113C motion.

That's not what I asked, don't avoid the question.

I asked if you could find any examples relief IN THE 1113(c) CODE, not whether you could find examples of whether someone "got away with not having to do 1113(c)".

Incidentally, I believe both USAirways and United had an 1113(c) deadline hanging over them when they negotiated their new deals - I do know both companies FILED them and the unions fought against having the pensions thrown out and the judge ruled against them anyway and DID throw the pensions out.

That's pretty overwhelming evidence of the ability of the judge to approve whatever contract changes he so believes prudent and reasonable.

 

[pilotyip]

What else?

In the end it is the job you have when this is all over. Even if a NWA Capt. has his pay cut to $125K per year like JB, AirTran, TWA, etc. Where can he go at age 50 and make anywhere near that money? If NWA goes chap 7 liquidation, because they can not turn it into a profitable airlines what does the NWA Capt. do?

 

[320AV8R]

just wondering where you got the "51 days" from?
My company is in BK and the ALPA Nation rep told us we have 10 days berfore the hearing once they file an 1113C and the clock starts ticking the minute they file and includes weekends.

Sleepy-

Lear70 is correct.

Once the 1113c motion is filed, a 51 day clock is started. At the end of the 51 days, one of two things will happen:

---management and the union will sucessfuly negotiate a new contract; both will agree to begin operating under the new terms and conditions

---mamagement and the union will be unable to agree on new terms and conditions; (a new contract). and the Judge will make a ruling regarding which proposal he/she deems most appropriate.

The judge's decision is based on what's beneficial to the corporation....not what's "fair", etc..... Also, the Judge must pick either the entire management or union proposal, he/she can't pick certain parts from both proposals. The choice will be the new contract. (It's unclear whether the union can strike, if they don't accept the Judge's ruling).

Also, at the end of the 51 days....if an agreement hasn't been reached, the deadline can be extended, with the agreement of management, the union, and the Judge.

320AV8R

 

[klhoard]

In the end it is the job you have when this is all over. . . .<snip>. .

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I guess another valid question is - "When is the end?" What keeps NWA from continually filing 1113c's??
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[100LL... Again!]

Even IF the pilot group CAN strike, whether or not they do is another matter. As pilotyip posted, where are you going to go and make even half of what you make as a NWA pilot? The guys at the top will probably not be willing to walk. The guys in the middle? Hard to say.

At the end of the day, given the current industry conditions, I think that the pilot group will cave.

 

[NuGuy]

Even IF the pilot group CAN strike, whether or not they do is another matter. As pilotyip posted, where are you going to go and make even half of what you make as a NWA pilot? The guys at the top will probably not be willing to walk. The guys in the middle? Hard to say.

At the end of the day, given the current industry conditions, I think that the pilot group will cave.

Sentiment on the line shows the opposite. I predict an %80 chance of a strike. Just about everyone is willing to take a chance since they could all bail and make the same or more at AirTran, JetBlue or even Spirit.

The Redbook and Greenbook guys are in the minority now anyway, and the MEC just passed a resolution that ensures that any agreement is ratified by membership vote.

Nu

 

[pilotyip]

No Nuguy you a wrong, a 50 year old NWA Capt is not going to be hired at those places and even if he was, he is going to sit in the right seat for a few years making about 50% of what he would make at a downsized NWA, He will never make up the difference. A 40 year old maybe, but there are very few 40 year old guys at NWA, they are all on the street.

 

[B6Driver]

pilotyip ,
You are soooo right.
I would bet that the rank-en-file votes overwhelmingly for the concessionary contract in large numbers as well.
There is no other choice. I been there and the way it makes you feel is horrible but shutting the place down serves no one.
Good luck to all involved.

 

[miles otoole]

No Nuguy you a wrong, a 50 year old NWA Capt is not going to be hired at those places and even if he was, he is going to sit in the right seat for a few years making about 50% of what he would make at a downsized NWA, He will never make up the difference. A 40 year old maybe, but there are very few 40 year old guys at NWA, they are all on the street.

Not to mention commuting on reserve city baby. They'll cave. No other skillz, well, I guess they could apply for an FA job at WN,