Northwest Airlines Files 1113

[Sleepyhead]

If YOU can find ANY relief in the bankruptcy code for employees TURNING DOWN a judge's final ruling and continuing to operate how they pleased, please post it here citing the actual Federal Code.

There are no examples because a judge has never granted an 1113C motion.

That is why there are different opinions as to what happens if the 1113C is granted by the judge. The company says the employees can't strike. ALPA reps told our group (Aloha)they are not sure if we could or not, It has never been tested in court. Many lawyers seem to think it would go something like this: judge grants 1113C and voids contract, employees go on strike, company petitions the judge to stop strike, judge orders strike illegal, company fires anyone not returning to work.

Aloha is now in the same situtation as NW. Today the judge granted a company motion and set a hearing date for 1113c pleadings on Oct 28.

 

[Lear70]

There are no examples because a judge has never granted an 1113C motion.

That's not what I asked, don't avoid the question.

I asked if you could find any examples relief IN THE 1113(c) CODE, not whether you could find examples of whether someone "got away with not having to do 1113(c)".

Incidentally, I believe both USAirways and United had an 1113(c) deadline hanging over them when they negotiated their new deals - I do know both companies FILED them and the unions fought against having the pensions thrown out and the judge ruled against them anyway and DID throw the pensions out.

That's pretty overwhelming evidence of the ability of the judge to approve whatever contract changes he so believes prudent and reasonable.

 

[pilotyip]

What else?

In the end it is the job you have when this is all over. Even if a NWA Capt. has his pay cut to $125K per year like JB, AirTran, TWA, etc. Where can he go at age 50 and make anywhere near that money? If NWA goes chap 7 liquidation, because they can not turn it into a profitable airlines what does the NWA Capt. do?

 

[320AV8R]

just wondering where you got the "51 days" from?
My company is in BK and the ALPA Nation rep told us we have 10 days berfore the hearing once they file an 1113C and the clock starts ticking the minute they file and includes weekends.

Sleepy-

Lear70 is correct.

Once the 1113c motion is filed, a 51 day clock is started. At the end of the 51 days, one of two things will happen:

---management and the union will sucessfuly negotiate a new contract; both will agree to begin operating under the new terms and conditions

---mamagement and the union will be unable to agree on new terms and conditions; (a new contract). and the Judge will make a ruling regarding which proposal he/she deems most appropriate.

The judge's decision is based on what's beneficial to the corporation....not what's "fair", etc..... Also, the Judge must pick either the entire management or union proposal, he/she can't pick certain parts from both proposals. The choice will be the new contract. (It's unclear whether the union can strike, if they don't accept the Judge's ruling).

Also, at the end of the 51 days....if an agreement hasn't been reached, the deadline can be extended, with the agreement of management, the union, and the Judge.

320AV8R

 

[klhoard]

In the end it is the job you have when this is all over. . . .<snip>. .

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I guess another valid question is - "When is the end?" What keeps NWA from continually filing 1113c's??
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[100LL... Again!]

Even IF the pilot group CAN strike, whether or not they do is another matter. As pilotyip posted, where are you going to go and make even half of what you make as a NWA pilot? The guys at the top will probably not be willing to walk. The guys in the middle? Hard to say.

At the end of the day, given the current industry conditions, I think that the pilot group will cave.

 

[NuGuy]

Even IF the pilot group CAN strike, whether or not they do is another matter. As pilotyip posted, where are you going to go and make even half of what you make as a NWA pilot? The guys at the top will probably not be willing to walk. The guys in the middle? Hard to say.

At the end of the day, given the current industry conditions, I think that the pilot group will cave.

Sentiment on the line shows the opposite. I predict an %80 chance of a strike. Just about everyone is willing to take a chance since they could all bail and make the same or more at AirTran, JetBlue or even Spirit.

The Redbook and Greenbook guys are in the minority now anyway, and the MEC just passed a resolution that ensures that any agreement is ratified by membership vote.

Nu

 

[pilotyip]

No Nuguy you a wrong, a 50 year old NWA Capt is not going to be hired at those places and even if he was, he is going to sit in the right seat for a few years making about 50% of what he would make at a downsized NWA, He will never make up the difference. A 40 year old maybe, but there are very few 40 year old guys at NWA, they are all on the street.

 

[B6Driver]

pilotyip ,
You are soooo right.
I would bet that the rank-en-file votes overwhelmingly for the concessionary contract in large numbers as well.
There is no other choice. I been there and the way it makes you feel is horrible but shutting the place down serves no one.
Good luck to all involved.

 

[miles otoole]

No Nuguy you a wrong, a 50 year old NWA Capt is not going to be hired at those places and even if he was, he is going to sit in the right seat for a few years making about 50% of what he would make at a downsized NWA, He will never make up the difference. A 40 year old maybe, but there are very few 40 year old guys at NWA, they are all on the street.

Not to mention commuting on reserve city baby. They'll cave. No other skillz, well, I guess they could apply for an FA job at WN,

 

[NuGuy]

...but there are very few 40 year old guys at NWA, they are all on the street.

Uh, yea...apparently you aren't quite up on the demographics at NWA as you profess...

Most of my friends at NWA are in the under-40 crowd, and not only are they quite numerous, but also still employed and, despite your best wishes, at least 1000 numbers from being furloughed.

But the NWA pilots have nothing to prove in this regard anyway. Along with Comair, they've already earned their star.



Nu

 

[Lear70]

Also, the Judge must pick either the entire management or union proposal, he/she can't pick certain parts from both proposals. The choice will be the new contract.

I didn't know that; I thought the judge could pick and choose from both proposals to come up with the new contract...

Also, at the end of the 51 days....if an agreement hasn't been reached, the deadline can be extended, with the agreement of management, the union, and the Judge. 320AV8R

THAT is what will keep NWA from extending things. They can't repeatedly file an 1113(c); it's a one-time filing, and the company AND the union must agree to extend the 51 day window. If they BOTH don't agree to do so, the judge steps in.

I wonder about NWA; their demographic is DRASTICALLY different than USAirways, the only other Ch. 11 I followed closely because my dad was working there at the time.

The USA pilot demographic was LARGELY 45-60 year old pilots, the most junior F/O had 20 years, my dad had 23 years and was getting displaced to F/O after being a CA since 1986. He took early retirement because the pension payment with the PBGC was higher and has been looking for work, with little luck, even though he flew Lears previously for almost a decade.

The market is flooded with people current and qualified and looking for better jobs. The only flying to be had is overseas in the Asian, African, or Eastern European markets at pay rates of $7,000 per month plus housing, no medical / dental coverage. It is tax-free, but you have to stay out of country minimum 300 days per year to keep the U.S. from snagging taxes.

Fast forward to NWA where there the most senior furloughee was hired around 1999 and the average F/O age is probably in the high 30's, low 40's, average CA in the high 40's, low 50's. There are many who could get jobs at AirTran, jetBlue or even one of the int'l gigs.

That makes them a big unknown whether they will take a stand or not. I don't think Duane Woerth will, but the top 10% has the most to lose with no way to get it back before mandatory retirement.

We'll probably see one of those 60/40 splits one way or another where it passes by the slimmest of margins amongst one of the most heated debates ever seen in aviation, then, if they walk, we'll see the judge order them back to work anyway while they spend a year arguing the validity of a strike in court.

Labor always tends to lose, no matter WHO sits in the Oval Office.

 

[pilotyip]

Nuguy not to dispute your figures. But from my crowd of around 15 NWA acquaintances, they are all beyond their mid 40's, that is probably because I am older. The 3 furloughs we have working for us, who were hired by NWA in 2001 and early 2000 have an average age close to 40. Figuring by next spring no body working for NWA would have been hired after 1999. Figuring an average age at time of hire early 30's, say 33, 2006 is 7 years beyond, that makes it about 40 for the low end of the age group at NWA. If that is the low end that means the majority of the NWA pilots are well over 40. To the point I was making, most of the NWA pilots are not going anywhere at this point in their lives, anymore than the TWA senior pilots when anywhere in their lives when they took big pay cuts in the 1980-90’s.

 

[NuGuy]

Pilotyip,

Your demos are off. The average age hired is lower, especially 1995-2001. The majority of classes I'm familiar with were around 30 or younger.

Nu

 

[Workin'Stiff]

Nuguy-

I'm under the same impression as pilotyip. I have several family members who work for NW, one in each "book". Bluebooks held the upper hand during the hiring days while the other two books were continually retiring. Now with the massive furlough forecasts projected at NW, Bluebook will lose the upper hand and you will see Red and Greenbooks being the vast majority. Those demographics will not strike and forfeit what that have with a very small possibility of ever acheiving that same sort of lifestyle with a different carrier, albeit at a 48% paycut. You won't be able to achieve that same paycheck (post-cut) that late in life.