Northwest Airlines Files 1113

[SIG600]

What does this mean for the guys that are retiring or close to it?

Anyone got Ted Kazinski's location? Maybe we should get him a gift certificate to Lowes and the address for NWA Execs.

 

[PCL_128]

Aren't you glad you dident support the other unions at NWA? Smooth move alpa

What exactly does that have to do with anything? If ALPA had supported the AMFA strike and walked out with them, then the result would have been an immediate Ch. 7 filing and the end of all Red Tail jobs. How exactly is that better than this?

 

[Ty Webb]

What exactly does that have to do with anything? If ALPA had supported the AMFA strike and walked out with them, then the result would have been an immediate Ch. 7 filing and the end of all Red Tail jobs. How exactly is that better than this?

Whoa there, Chief . . . they really have you believing that the B.O.D. wold vote to just throw in the towel and liquidate the whole operation, huh?

Wanna play poker sometime?

 

[FDJ2]

It most certainly IS a "take it or leave it" deal.

Then how do you explain the Hawaiian negotiations while in Ch11?

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that it is a level playing field, but it is also far from a "take it or leave it deal."

 

[Lear70]

Then how do you explain the Hawaiian negotiations while in Ch11?

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that it is a level playing field, but it is also far from a "take it or leave it deal."

It's really very simple, the unfortunate truth that NO ONE in the middle of a 1113(c) filing wants to listen to because NO ONE likes to believe they have no real control over their own future.

One last time: the BOTTOM LINE is that the 1113(c) filing sets a HARD DEADLINE of 51 days to NEGOTIATE (which is what's going on at Hawaiian and what NWA will start doing now). The pilots (and other labor) are on the losing side of this bargaining table because, if they cannot come to an agreement, the JUDGE imposes new contract limitations OR throws the contract out altogether and comes up with his own idea of fair compensation.

In that eventuality, both sides (mgmt and labor) are allowed to present briefs to the judge on why they believe their proposal is MORE ECONOMICALLY FEASIBLE and MORE FAIR to labor, but it's the JUDGE who gets to decide, NOT THE UNION.

At this point IT DOES BECOME A "TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT DEAL" WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT.

You can either take what the judge has handed down or you can exercise your right to immediate self help and shut the airline down, playing a very dangerous bluff with management that they'll come back and give you more (incidentally, this tactic has shut down EVERY AIRLINE THAT HAS TRIED IT).

Yes, you bargain, but only for 51 days. After that, you "take it or leave it".

 

[Sleepyhead]

just wondering where you got the "51 days" from?
My company is in BK and the ALPA Nation rep told us we have 10 days berfore the hearing once they file an 1113C and the clock starts ticking the minute they file and includes weekends.

 

[Ty Webb]

You can either take what the judge has handed down or you can exercise your right to immediate self help and shut the airline down, playing a very dangerous bluff with management that they'll come back and give you more (incidentally, this tactic has shut down EVERY AIRLINE THAT HAS TRIED IT).

I don't recall any major airlines suffering this fate, not in my lifetime . . . . How about naming those airlines, and the source for that information.

And, yes, I realize you didn't say "major airline" but if you want to make a comparison, it should be relevant to NWA.

 

[B6Driver]

Eastern Airlines?

 

[Ty Webb]

Eastern Airlines?

Not even close to the same scenario as NWA. Read "Hard Landings, the History of the Airlines" and see if your comparison is even remotely similar.

Next contestant . . . . . .

 

[PCL_128]

just wondering where you got the "51 days" from?
My company is in BK and the ALPA Nation rep told us we have 10 days berfore the hearing once they file an 1113C and the clock starts ticking the minute they file and includes weekends.

There will be several hearings between the judge and management's lawyers during the 51 day period, but the judge will not make any decisions about voiding contracts or imposing terms until 44-51 days after the 1113(c) filing. Until then, the unions have the ability to negotiate with management in an attempt to come to some sort of agreement.

As for the right to strike should a judge void the contract or impose the company's offer, that is somewhat debateable. ALPA Legal does have legal briefs prepared in case it comes to that, but management is adament that the RLA does not allow self-help in these cases. It's never been tested in court before, so it could cut either way depending on how lucky you get with judges. It's possible that the judge could order the workers back to work.

 

[FDJ2]

One last time: the BOTTOM LINE is that the 1113(c) filing sets a HARD DEADLINE of 51 days to NEGOTIATE (which is what's going on at Hawaiian and what NWA will start doing now). The pilots (and other labor) are on the losing side of this bargaining table because, if they cannot come to an agreement, the JUDGE imposes new contract limitations OR throws the contract out altogether and comes up with his own idea of fair compensation.

Again, not necessarily true. First of all, the Hawaiian pilots are no longer in negotiations, or Ch11, but when they were, they shot down the TA which came out of their section 1113 negotiations. Second, it is not a HARD DEADLINE of 51 days. After 51 days the court will rule on the application to reject the CBA, UNLESS, there is agreement to extend this period. This is what happened at Hawaiian. Third, the judge made it obvious to both sides that it would be best for both parties to negotiate in "good faith" and achieve only the "necessary" modifications to permit reorganization and assure "fair and equitable" treatment of all parties. The bottomline is that management was not able to cram unreasonable terms down the throat of the Hawaiian pilots and they ended up with a far better PWA then what was originally proposed with an amendable date in 2007.

Certainly Section 1113 filings put labor at a disadvantage, but it is not necessarily a "take it, or leave it" deal. Everyone who has been in Ch11 has their horror stories, but you don't necessarily have to be a victim of a management over reach. Each pilot group and each airline is different, with different circumstances and outcomes while in Ch11. Perhaps we are just discussing semantics here, in which case we could go on and on. I'll leave you the last word on the subject.

 

[FDJ2]

Eastern Airlines?

Different Ch11 laws, different times, different circumstances.

 

[FDJ2]

just wondering where you got the "51 days" from?
My company is in BK and the ALPA Nation rep told us we have 10 days berfore the hearing once they file an 1113C and the clock starts ticking the minute they file and includes weekends.

Hearing within 14 days of application. Can be extended by 7 days by the court. The court will rule on the application within 30 days of the hearing. Can be extended by mutual agreement. Clear as mud.

 

[Dan Roman]

Another thing to consider when comparing the results that Hawaiian got. As FDJ2 said, each case is different, In Hawaiian's case, it was producing strong operating profits throughout the BK and very little was being disputed. Just the leases and the need to secure a viable retirement for the pilots, (everyone else was in a 401K). Hawaiians case was an abuse of the system by the preveous owner (for which he lost control of the airline). If management can prove the things they ask for are critical to it's survival I'm sure you would have a diferent result than what Hawaiian experienced.

 

[Lear70]

I don't recall any major airlines suffering this fate, not in my lifetime . . . . How about naming those airlines, and the source for that information.

I should have been more specific. Every airline that I can think of (majors included) where employees have walked off the job and operations ceased rather than continue to work through negotiations has closed up shop permanently. This scenario at the end of a 1113(c) filing wouldn't be any different.

If YOU can find ANY relief in the bankruptcy code for employees TURNING DOWN a judge's final ruling and continuing to operate how they pleased, please post it here citing the actual Federal Code.

FDJ2, I believe we're talking semantics, and I agree with much of what you are saying; no employee group SHOULD just "bend over and take it" to whatever the company wants but, at the same time, those employees should bear in mind that IF the union draws too hard a stance and IF the two groups can't come to terms (which is the scenario I've been talking about), the judge WILL rule and it WILL be "take it or leave it".

Although the other carriers in RECENT years going through this process HAVE come to an agreement prior to that, it would be foolish of any employee going through this not to remember what CAN happen if they reject all of management's offers in the negotiating period and it goes to the judge for final ruling.

Hawaiian is a perfect example of BOTH SIDES requesting the judge extend the time which is perfectly legal. Does anyone see NWA doing that with their ultra-aggressive pattern of bargaining? I don't.

I believe it truly sucks, but that's the system.