No growth at SW until 2016 now

[Dan Roman]

Well, the point is he has gotten involved and contributed. My biggest gripe is with the pilots that sit on the sidelines and throw stones but never volunteer for anything. We have a few at HA and I'm sure you do too. Those are the folks that hinder progress as much as anyone. It has nothing to do with how much experience or time as an airline pilot they have. Everything to do with dealing with the yahoo's that do nothing but point figures and complain. They are usually out to lunch with their perspective, contribute nothing and use up an inordinate amount of the reps time.
For that reason I err on giving any pilot that contributes their time the benefit of the doubt over the haters.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Well, the point is he has gotten involved and contributed. My biggest gripe is with the pilots that sit on the sidelines and throw stones but never volunteer for anything. We have a few at HA and I'm sure you do too. Those are the folks that hinder progress as much as anyone. It has nothing to do with how much experience or time as an airline pilot they have. Everything to do with dealing with the yahoo's that do nothing but point figures and complain. They are usually out to lunch with their perspective, contribute nothing and use up an inordinate amount of the reps time.
For that reason I err on giving any pilot that contributes their time the benefit of the doubt over the haters.

That's a good point; I'm sure nobody would ever see PCL as a hater, right? <sarcasm, in case you missed it>. PCL, due to his short and inflammatory experience at AirTran and at ALPA, combined with the results obtained, is clearly the biggest Southwest and SWAPA hater on this board. Without question. If you don't know this, you obviously haven't been reading his posts. Yet you continue to always believe every "fact" he posts, even if hearsay, and continue to align yourself with his clearly-biased slant. Why is that, Dan?

Bubba

 

[Dan Roman]

I think he hates what happened to AirTran is all. I can't fault that. If an airline bought HA and handled it the way SWA did with AirTran I would be a major hater. Which is one of the reasons I think you think I'm a SWA hater. I Just have taken the side of the smaller airline getting bought perspective. You get ONE guess why!

 

[waveflyer]

Well, the point is he has gotten involved and contributed. My biggest gripe is with the pilots that sit on the sidelines and throw stones but never volunteer for anything. We have a few at HA and I'm sure you do too. Those are the folks that hinder progress as much as anyone. It has nothing to do with how much experience or time as an airline pilot they have. Everything to do with dealing with the yahoo's that do nothing but point figures and complain. They are usually out to lunch with their perspective, contribute nothing and use up an inordinate amount of the reps time.
For that reason I err on giving any pilot that contributes their time the benefit of the doubt over the haters.

Did I not tell you I've volunteered for alpa before?
I have many times. Not as a rep, and certainly not as an exec, but I've put in my time, for free.
I view it as a responsibility, and will volunteer for Swapa at some point in my 20+ years to go.

I have a business and want to be anonymous here. So I don't provide more details.

Again, I'm sure any c grade hacker could find out the identity of any of us, but I'm just here for cathartic purposes and to work out ideas freely when I'm not even sure how I think and feel about something- and sometimes just for boredom. But I don't tell exactly bc I've had a unique career. 6 airlines is true though, yet you take a pft, then pinnacle, then air tran pilot over an ex legacy volunteer, a regional volunteer after said legacy furloughed then voted to outsource more while pilots were on furlough- and current Swapa member?
Why?
Because he advocates your own view?

Now I know my opinion differs from yours, but you have never been Swapa. I've been alpa twice and did step up. I am much more comfortable with Swapa.

Please tell me again how PCL is so objective

I won't tell you my opinion is objective. It isn't. It's clear to everyone here that I didn't appreciate my brothers voting me and my generation off the island through the power of alpa. Swapa's position and strength on that subject surely sways my opinion. But I don't come in half cocked with an uninformed view or experience.

My argument would be that if you can't see PCL's clear bias, how can you see your own? I hardly believe that any of us who've made this a career has a pure objective view on almost anything that affects our career.

 

[waveflyer]

Well, the point is he has gotten involved and contributed. My biggest gripe is with the pilots that sit on the sidelines and throw stones but never volunteer for anything. We have a few at HA and I'm sure you do too. Those are the folks that hinder progress as much as anyone. It has nothing to do with how much experience or time as an airline pilot they have. Everything to do with dealing with the yahoo's that do nothing but point figures and complain. They are usually out to lunch with their perspective, contribute nothing and use up an inordinate amount of the reps time.
For that reason I err on giving any pilot that contributes their time the benefit of the doubt over the haters.

"Any pilot...." Except wave....ok

That post is well said, - from experience: ^^^^ see bolded- you just don't live up to it when it's inconvenient.

 

[waveflyer]

Well, here I have to disagree with you. PCL has been an actual "airline pilot" (major) only since 2007. His total ALPA experience has been since ALPA replaced their in-house union during their last contract negotiations. Depending on who you believe he is, he actually is ALPA, so he is not in a good position to make this call. His actual job is to be a cheerleader for ALPA; how can you possibly think him objective on the matter? Let me ask you this, Dan: would you think a senior officer in SWAPA would be the best or most objective opinion on whether SWAPA does a better job? I suspect not. Yet you lavish this same label on an ALPA insider, and a literal newbie airline pilot at that. Personally, I would think that pilots who have worked under multiple unions, including decades under ALPA (including several airlines' locals), probably have a better, if not less personally subjective, opinion on the matter.

And by the way, you should stop taking PCL's biased talking points as gospel. You know?

Bubba

I'm pretty sure PCL was involved with alpa at pinnacle. He could tell you, but I absolutely do not discount the work union members at regional airlines do. Like the flying they do, that experience is probably twice as taxing as major work- often inundated with grievances that the company waits out, and pilot turnover and ambition weakens the resolve through a desire to keep our nose clean and move on and short time disease. It is tough work.

 

[waveflyer]

I think he hates what happened to AirTran is all. I can't fault that. If an airline bought HA and handled it the way SWA did with AirTran I would be a major hater. Which is one of the reasons I think you think I'm a SWA hater. I Just have taken the side of the smaller airline getting bought perspective. You get ONE guess why!

You won't get as good a deal as air tran Dan.



Tic!

You know you just explained to all of us that the sky's blue and water's wet, right?
We all know your end game on this- scared to death of "Hawaiian, operated by...."

What's weird is you think posting on FI makes a bit of difference to what will go down if that happens.
Peace on my man, we're all along for the ride.

 

[PCL_128]

Well, here I have to disagree with you. PCL has been an actual "airline pilot" (major) only since 2007. His total ALPA experience has been since ALPA replaced their in-house union during their last contract negotiations. Depending on who you believe he is, he actually is ALPA, so he is not in a good position to make this call. His actual job is to be a cheerleader for ALPA; how can you possibly think him objective on the matter? Let me ask you this, Dan: would you think a senior officer in SWAPA would be the best or most objective opinion on whether SWAPA does a better job? I suspect not. Yet you lavish this same label on an ALPA insider, and a literal newbie airline pilot at that. Personally, I would think that pilots who have worked under multiple unions, including decades under ALPA (including several airlines' locals), probably have a better, if not less personally subjective, opinion on the matter.

So many factual errors in my background, not even worth going through them all.

 

[waveflyer]

There's a couple factual errors, but you're still a young newbie with a pro alpa agenda.

 

[PCL_128]

Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better about your lack of knowledge and experience.

 

[waveflyer]

What does that even mean?

 

[Dan Roman]

You won't get as good a deal as air tran Dan.



Tic!

You know you just explained to all of us that the sky's blue and water's wet, right?
We all know your end game on this- scared to death of "Hawaiian, operated by...."

What's weird is you think posting on FI makes a bit of difference to what will go down if that happens.
Peace on my man, we're all along for the ride.

Now now boys, name calling just means you don't have a good response......anyway, Wave, I'm not even remotely concerned about HA getting bought. We simply have a business plan that doesn't compliment any mainland airline. Anyone who bought us would be paying for a route system and image that doesn't work should we be merged into anyone. Although if SWA totally lost the plot and thought a relatively small AirBus hub in the middle of the Pacific was a good idea, you never answered my question awhile ago. ( I enjoyed our debate by the way, especially since I felt I won hands down!!) the question is this, it WOULD go to arbitration, we would also love Gary's little operate separately threat, as that would suit us, but obviously we have the career expectations of all the Transpac and inter -island flying.....How would you feel when all the SWA pilots got fenced out of all the Hawaii flying? Obviously the widebodies would be all crewed by HA pilots. We also are committed to 18 A321 NEO's for thinner west coast routes, so an arbitrator would most likely give all that to us for a few years.

 

[scoreboardII]

Careful about gloating about widebody fenced off flying. The majority just might vote the pay for widebody to something below 737. Just saying, not that any of these talks mean a hill of beans.

 

[PCL_128]

Careful about gloating about widebody fenced off flying. The majority just might vote the pay for widebody to something below 737. Just saying, not that any of these talks mean a hill of beans.

Which, of course, would be a DFR violation, since it would fall under the categories of discriminatory and bad faith behavior.

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

Careful about gloating about widebody fenced off flying. The majority just might vote the pay for widebody to something below 737. Just saying, not that any of these talks mean a hill of beans.

Lying, threatening, and stealing, all part of the "cult"ure.

What do you care about widebody? Your career expectation was to fly a 73 all over TX and occasionally out into other parts of the lower 48. Given the opportunity to fly one thanks to a merger, if you didn't get it, you'd threaten the other pilot group with lowering their pay?? Nice.

 

[Dan Roman]

Careful about gloating about widebody fenced off flying. The majority just might vote the pay for widebody to something below 737. Just saying, not that any of these talks mean a hill of beans.

Scoreboard, I'm a little shocked you actually are demonstrating scab mentality??? I suppose if HA pilots were on strike and you wanted their flying you would do that too. What you said is the same premise, just in a more passive aggressive cloak.

Bubba, see why I'm a little leery of the SWAPA "culture" being a little overly self serving and less about the profession as a whole.

 

[General Lee]

Funny, that's just like you SWA guys.

If it ain't SWA or SWAPA, it's crap. Which couldn't be farther from the truth....

I agree with you Jim. One of the things that drives them absolutely "NUTS" is when you state you wouldn't want their job. It drives them bonkers. But, they may start to agree with you during their upcoming negotiations. Of course, I only wish them the best.....


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Hpilot]

I agree with you Jim. One of the things that drives them absolutely "NUTS" is when you state you wouldn't want their job. It drives them bonkers. But, they may start to agree with you during their upcoming negotiations. Of course, I only wish them the best.....


Bye Bye---General Lee

One of our new hires was offered a Southwest class prior to starting indoc and said thanks, but no thanks. What a complete 180 from 10 years ago.

 

[Jim]

One of our new hires was offered a Southwest class prior to starting indoc and said thanks, but no thanks. What a complete 180 from 10 years ago.

I have a friend that started at United about 8 months ago. He had offers for both United and SWA.

 

[freightdogfred]

Careful about gloating about widebody fenced off flying. The majority just might vote the pay for widebody to something below 737. Just saying, not that any of these talks mean a hill of beans.

I can't believe you'd come out with a gem like that. After having a ringside seat for the last 2 years I can see it having a fair bit of support over there.

 

[PCL_128]

I think it's great that their minds work like that. It means they'll probably do something blatantly in violation of the DFR standard pretty quickly, so I'll be able to get in a good lawsuit against them before I bail. Better pay those DFR insurance premiums, SWAPA!

 

[FlyinGuy]

Score's comments are idiotic and do not represent those of most pilots at SWA!!!

 

[ATLplt]

Careful about gloating about widebody fenced off flying. The majority just might vote the pay for widebody to something below 737. Just saying, not that any of these talks mean a hill of beans.

What a loser. Please crawl back into your hole.

 

[madjack]

The first deal Had ATL fenced for 10 years, IMHO it would have passed (SWA BOD 19-0 vote) on both sides...SWAPA has no problem with fences...this group are sheep and will do whatever the Co. wants, not even sure why we have a "union"??? Maybe the AAI guys and the merger in General will put a little backbone in the group...

 

[SWA Bubba]

I think it's great that their minds work like that. It means they'll probably do something blatantly in violation of the DFR standard pretty quickly, so I'll be able to get in a good lawsuit against them before I bail. Better pay those DFR insurance premiums, SWAPA!

I'm sure it's what you live for.

So, PCL, here's an ironic situation for you to consider. SWAPA just concluded a vote to amend our constitution to change the definition of member class, to allow for SWAPA to take over administration of the AirTran CBA. People seem to think this will happen sooner rather than later, maybe even by this summer. At any rate, it will happen by the end of the year when AirTran ceases to exist.

So that means that by default, you will be a SWAPA member, even if still on the AirTran side of the partition (you've indicated that you will stay for the sit, if required, for a wait for training). You will have to pay dues and everything. When that day happens, will you resign then, or will you swallow your pride and continue to milk the company for a paycheck for as little work as possible, while sending your 1% to SWAPA? I'm a little curious, because you've said things that seem to contradict this possibility.

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

I think it's great that their minds work like that. It means they'll probably do something blatantly in violation of the DFR standard pretty quickly, so I'll be able to get in a good lawsuit against them before I bail. Better pay those DFR insurance premiums, SWAPA!

By the way, I'm guessing that you are well acquainted with the need for DFR insurance premiums, aren't you, PCL?! <rimshot> :blush:

Bubba

 

[PCL_128]

I'm sure it's what you live for.

So, PCL, here's an ironic situation for you to consider. SWAPA just concluded a vote to amend our constitution to change the definition of member class, to allow for SWAPA to take over administration of the AirTran CBA. People seem to think this will happen sooner rather than later, maybe even by this summer. At any rate, it will happen by the end of the year when AirTran ceases to exist.

So that means that by default, you will be a SWAPA member, even if still on the AirTran side of the partition (you've indicated that you will stay for the sit, if required, for a wait for training). You will have to pay dues and everything. When that day happens, will you resign then, or will you swallow your pride and continue to milk the company for a paycheck for as little work as possible, while sending your 1% to SWAPA? I'm a little curious, because you've said things that seem to contradict this possibility.

Bubba

Of course I'll pay my dues. As awful as SWAPA is, they are the collective bargaining agent negotiating and enforcing the CBA. Nothing worse than a freeloader who doesn't pay what he owes. But I'll file litigation the very second that SWAPA does anything that could violate the DFR standard.

 

[scoreboardII]

Which, of course, would be a DFR violation, since it would fall under the categories of discriminatory and bad faith behavior.

Absolutely not. Majority rules in a union. The majority have full control over what jets get paid what. The fact the company would love cheaper widebody rates, would simply make it easy.

Look, it's not happening, but don't say it can't, reference the USair pilots issues.

 

[scoreboardII]

Scoreboard, I'm a little shocked you actually are demonstrating scab mentality??? I suppose if HA pilots were on strike and you wanted their flying you would do that too. What you said is the same premise, just in a more passive aggressive cloak.

Bubba, see why I'm a little leery of the SWAPA "culture" being a little overly self serving and less about the profession as a whole.

Demonstrating scab mentality? That's a new one.

So you're saying the Usair East West thing is all scab mentality actions?

I never said we would fly your struck work. Nice straw man attack though.

Look, I'm not the one threatening to force a fence, you threw that gauntlet down, I'm just telling you we have the votes to decide what the airframes get paid, choose wisely. A fence longer than a few years would not be in anyone's best interest, so get over it.


Like I said, none of this is going to happen, SWA is too gun shy right now.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Of course I'll pay my dues. As awful as SWAPA is, they are the collective bargaining agent negotiating and enforcing the CBA. Nothing worse than a freeloader who doesn't pay what he owes. But I'll file litigation the very second that SWAPA does anything that could violate the DFR standard.

Glad to hear it!

Can we make you a "We Are SWAPA" avatar to replace your current one when that day comes?

Bubba