No growth at SW until 2016 now

[BILL LUMBERG]

Well done Howie....

I will stand down.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Lee Moak says it best: "'Independent union' is an oxymoron."

You guys are going to get your asses handed to you in Section 6, and it's largely because you refuse to be a part of the organization that has the experience in dealing with the kind of management that you now have. You'll learn. But the lessons will have a price.

I'm sorry, PCL, but who's Lee Moak?

Oh that's right; he's National President of ALPA, whose very job includes getting independent unions to join ALPA in order to keep the massive amount of dues flowing in to Herndon. That certainly makes his idea of what kind of union is best the sacred gospel.

First you tell us, PCL, that we're "going to get [our] asses handed to [us] in Section 6" because we're not part of ALPA. Then when someone points out Airtran ALPA's record, you use the other side of your mouth to point out that ALPA just "provides the resources," and it's up to local reps to use them or not. Well, it would be essentially the same group of people volunteering to represent Southwest pilots, whether it said "ALPA" or "SWAPA" on their lanyards, so exactly how would being in ALPA change anything? Seriously? Make up your mind already.

YOU are an oxymoron, PCL. But you are a good cheerleader; I'll give you that.

And other than just shouting that ALPA is "the best," nobody's addressed my actual points about the virtues of your own union. You remember, having ALPA national's interests not directly aligned with your own specific interests? For example, do you think you're ever going to get rid of outsoucing at Delta or United? Not with ALPA representing the regionals as well as yourselves, you won't.

Again, if you like ALPA, then good for you; it's important to have some representation. But stop trying to sell it to those who can do without, like it's the only way.

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

Easily the most ignorant thing ever said on Flightinfo. SWAPA still hasn't achieved the pay rates that ALPA achieved in the late '90s, even with the nonstop profitability of your company. That's pathetic. SWAPA has never accomplished much of anything, besides riding on ALPA coattails.

Hmmm...

ALPA still hasn't achieved the pay rates that ALPA achieved in the late '90s. You remember, the ones that helped force their carriers into bankruptcy and members into furlough when 9/11 and economic disaster hit. SWAPA and SWA, on the other hand, not so much. When 9/11 and the recession hit and other carriers' ALPA contracts went into the sh1tter, SWA kept making money, and SWAPA pilots kept getting raises and improvements. Like you yourself said, "nonstop."

And speaking of coattails, thank God ALPA carriers had SWAPA's coattails to hang on to, to help them climb out of their BK contracts, right?

Bubba

 

[Dan Roman]

Dan, I don't think anyone is saying that ALPA hasn't done anything for the industry; indeed they have. However, they are not the be-all, end-all that you and others make them out to be.

The reason some of us like having our own independent union should be obvious. First and foremost is that every dollar spent, and every effort expended, is for our own members first. Period. Every time. That's certainly not true with a national union. A national union with competing locals has to balance the needs and wants of different chapters, when they find that their interests compete against each other. That means that your money and union might not have your best interest in mind when decisions between two ALPA carriers are made. ALPA regional carriers vs. ALPA mainline in the codeshare situation comes first to mind. I'm sure others can give other examples.

Plus you have the added overhead and drag of another, huge bureaucratic layer, far removed from your concerns. More money.

You pretend again that you're being "non-partisan," but once again, you resort to slams on anything Southwest. I've never said that SWAPA was better than ALPA (other than for myself and other Southwest pilots), but you can't help slamming SWAPA ("a follower, not a leader." Our success was "built on ALPA.") In case you hadn't noticed, Dan, ALL airline labor unions feed off each other. That's how it works. We all pull each other up--a rising tide floats all boats, as it were. How many ALPA carriers used SWAPA's CBA as leverage in trying to regain their losses after 9/11 and bankruptcy contracts? Uh... that would be most if not all of them, Dan. In those cases, Dan, using your analogy, ALPA was rebuilding its "crumbled" foundation on the newer, but more solid SWAPA foundation. Should they be thanking us now, like you seem to think we should kowtow to ALPA?

You like ALPA? Good for you. However, it's not perfect, it's not the only or necessarily the best answer, and it's definitely not right for everyone. Larger airlines with their own independent union are generally more satisfied with that. Why do you have such a problem with that?

Bubba

Bubba, you make a some good points here, my position was aimed at the SWA folks who come across with the whole ALPA suck's SWAPA rules mentality. You are not one of them. I agree with your moderate position.
I don't fault your wanting an independent union, but all pilot unions have simply built on the foundation that ALPA is responsible for for. It's unrealistically altruistic to think our profession has the ability to pull together for the greater good of all pilots, but if SWA and AA were also ALPA, we would all be better off. I know I know, not realistic, but I do take offense to the ALPA name calling from the "new kids on the block" is all. ALPA has a long history of helping the profession, SWAPA is an independent union that wanted to provide unique representation that was more concerned with competing with other pilots rather than raising the bar for all. Fair enough, you can't fault competition, it's what raises everyone's game, so I'm not faulting SWAPA, it just is a little unseemly when when SWA pilots ridicule ALPA is all.

 

[Dan Roman]

Hmmm...

ALPA still hasn't achieved the pay rates that ALPA achieved in the late '90s. You remember, the ones that helped force their carriers into bankruptcy and members into furlough when 9/11 and economic disaster hit. SWAPA and SWA, on the other hand, not so much. When 9/11 and the recession hit and other carriers' ALPA contracts went into the sh1tter, SWA kept making money, and SWAPA pilots kept getting raises and improvements. Like you yourself said, "nonstop."

And speaking of coattails, thank God ALPA carriers had SWAPA's coattails to hang on to, to help them climb out of their BK contracts, right?

Bubba

Bubba, you can also make the argument that SWAPA pilots worked harder for less compensation than ALPA pilots for a long time and undermined the ALPA legacy contracts of the 90's. That's all in the past.....good on you guys for raising the bar your last contract and keeping your management from outsourcing all your International expansion to Canadian and Mexican 737 operators. We all are entering an era were no one should be dragging anyone down.
Who would have dreamed in 1990 that SWA would be raising the bar and USAir would be the one dragging the bar down!!

 

[Dan Roman]

Let me sum up what I'm saying...Nothing wrong with SWAPA, but SWA pilots should treat ALPA with respect, not ridicule.

 

[waveflyer]

Bubba, there are two points about alpa. First and most important is a critical mass when it comes to dues money in order to be effective. Independent unions often have next to no leverage against aggressive managements bc they haven't been operating for years, have large reserve funds available for whatever fight might be headed their way, etc. in this case, the resources alpa can provide are not inconsequential.
We might actually see more independent unions if Swapa could sign off on early financial help to get them to that point. I'm not sure if regional airlines could ever get to that point, which is one of the main reasons I don't support outsourcing and call them truly disenfranchised.
And b) with your last point above- I think it's drinking the management poison to say that it was pilot contracts that forced airlines into bankruptcy after 9/11. There was a hell of a lot more than that going on behind closed doors that pilots could not control.

 

[canyonblue]

Bubba, you can also make the argument that SWAPA pilots worked harder for less compensation than ALPA pilots for a long time and undermined the ALPA legacy contracts of the 90's.

Bad comparison. Legacy management loved to use SWA as a barrier to higher pay in the '90's, but failed at the ultimate test when they allowed pilot pay to fall below that of an SWA pilot. If SWA pilot pay was the path to profitability for a Legacy airline, then why wouldn't it work to this very day. The SWA pilots of the 1990's are no comparison to a Legacy pilot during that same period. Given the stock options they also received, a SWA pilot made far more money during that time period.

Let me sum up what I'm saying...Nothing wrong with SWAPA, but SWA pilots should treat ALPA with respect, not ridicule.

On this point I agree with you 110%!

 

[redflyer65]

Some of those guys had a strike price of around 3 dollars a share.

Then when the stock splits 8 times (it's split a total of 11 times total), that strike price basically becomes 60 cents. Can you say big money?

Yea, those guys cleaned up and good on 'em. Was the 401k match a little low at the time? Sure. But then you had years of profit sharing in the 15-20% ranges and they retired mulit-millionaires. Easily.

 

[fr8doggie]

Bubba, there are two points about alpa. First and most important is a critical mass when it comes to dues money in order to be effective. Independent unions often have next to no leverage against aggressive managements bc they haven't been operating for years, have large reserve funds available for whatever fight might be headed their way, etc. in this case, the resources alpa can provide are not inconsequential.

We might actually see more independent unions if Swapa could sign off on early financial help to get them to that point. I'm not sure if regional airlines could ever get to that point, which is one of the main reasons I don't support outsourcing and call them truly disenfranchised.

And b) with your last point above- I think it's drinking the management poison to say that it was pilot contracts that forced airlines into bankruptcy after 9/11. There was a hell of a lot more than that going on behind closed doors that pilots could not control.

Are you advocating SWAPA funding independent union efforts to keep airlines from joining ALPA? In other words to undermine ALPA? Tell me I read that wrong.

 

[livin'thesim]

Some of those guys had a strike price of around 3 dollars a share.

Then when the stock splits 8 times (it's split a total of 11 times total), that strike price basically becomes 60 cents. Can you say big money?

Yea, those guys cleaned up and good on 'em. Was the 401k match a little low at the time? Sure. But then you had years of profit sharing in the 15-20% ranges and they retired mulit-millionaires. Easily.

Nothing wrong with stock options at all, but a guy has to be very, very careful to maintain an appropriate balance. I knew people who, during a BK lost their job and most of their 401k at the same time (not in aviation, but aviation could be the same type of situation).

Best to convert options slowly, and not get too greedy. Take some money off the table and diversify.

 

[redflyer65]

Agreed. We've had some more recent options, some expiring worthless and others provide some modest profit. I don't think Options are the way to go moving forward. Just trying to provide some historical perspective off Canyonblue's post.

 

[Dan Roman]

Agreed. We've had some more recent options, some expiring worthless and others provide some modest profit. I don't Options are the way to go moving forward. Just trying to provide some historical perspective off Canyonblue's post.

Just curious, how much stock do pilots get now? Is it in your 401k or how is it distributed?

 

[waveflyer]

Eh, I take breaks and then come back here on occasion. Only so much of waveflyer that I can take.

But no, still not flying much at all.

Oh I get that I'm on full blown troll status with 8500 posts, but ^^^^Says the guy with 4500 more posts than me

Believe me, none of us are impressed with you either Pcl.
Actually, Im not unimpressed with you the person, Just not your anti-SWA and anti-Swapa Schtick and certainly not impressed with your flying cred.

Getting out is a good thing, bc you very clearly want a job representing pilots, not actually being one. And if you don't fly, you cannot represent us well in any elected fashion. Better for you to get to law school and let us hire you at the attorney wages you can negotiate..

 

[waveflyer]

Are you advocating SWAPA funding independent union efforts to keep airlines from joining ALPA? In other words to undermine ALPA? Tell me I read that wrong.

Undermine?

No.

But I do support the autonomy of each pilot group. JetBlue has in the past had independent union drives. If we, and apa, and ipa, and alpa, had supported the independent union drives maybe JetBlue would have unionized much earlier.
As well as other independent drives.

To my understanding, all unions do provide some resources to organizing committees, but it's more about advice and counsel.

Between apa, IPA, and Swapa, the independent union cannot be looked at as at odds with alpa, as if alpa were a business and the rest competitors.

So who's left?

Virgin and Skywest?

 

[redflyer65]

Just curious, how much stock do pilots get now? Is it in your 401k or how is it distributed?

No stock grants at all.

We have an ESPP that does allow a 10% on shares purchased. It's been a pretty good option over the last seven years as you can imagine.

We do have the option to move into SW stock within the Profit Sharing account. Other than those to items, you have to buy on the open market like everyone else.

 

[Dan Roman]

Undermine?

No.

But I do support the autonomy of each pilot group. JetBlue has in the past had independent union drives. If we, and apa, and ipa, and alpa, had supported the independent union drives maybe JetBlue would have unionized much earlier.
As well as other independent drives.

To my understanding, all unions do provide some resources to organizing committees, but it's more about advice and counsel.

Between apa, IPA, and Swapa, the independent union cannot be looked at as at odds with alpa, as if alpa were a business and the rest competitors.

So who's left?

Virgin and Skywest?

Believe it or not, you changed my perspective a little. I can at least see the concept of all airlines being unionized and negotiating a contract taylor made to their operation being a valid one. That said, the strength of all the airlines under one union still seems like it could yield better results for all. For instance, JetBlue will do much better having the resources of ALPA behind them then if they tried to go it alone.

 

[FlyinGuy]

When it comes to Capitol Hill, I will agree that one strong voice is better. Contract negotiations are better suited when it is local.

 

[Dan Roman]

Some of those guys had a strike price of around 3 dollars a share.

Then when the stock splits 8 times (it's split a total of 11 times total), that strike price basically becomes 60 cents. Can you say big money?

Yea, those guys cleaned up and good on 'em. Was the 401k match a little low at the time? Sure. But then you had years of profit sharing in the 15-20% ranges and they retired mulit-millionaires. Easily.

Actually, I believe your 401k match is still about half what the ALPA legacies get? 15% is the norm, aren't you at 8%? You talk about the original pilots cleaning up on stock. That still is not a good retirement model. Yes they were fortunate, but putting all your eggs in one basket is a big risk. It can just as easily go the PeopleExpress route, for awhile their pilots were doing just as well as the SWA pilots with their stock and it went to zero.
How is your senior pilots getting all that stock and now current pilots not getting that stock any different from legacy pilots also no longer getting what the senior ones did?

 

[redflyer65]

Actually, I believe your 401k match is still about half what the ALPA legacies get? 15% is the norm, aren't you at 8%? You talk about the original pilots cleaning up on stock. That still is not a good retirement model. Yes they were fortunate, but putting all your eggs in one basket is a big risk. It can just as easily go the PeopleExpress route, for awhile their pilots were doing just as well as the SWA pilots with their stock and it went to zero.
How is your senior pilots getting all that stock and now current pilots not getting that stock any different from legacy pilots also no longer getting what the senior ones did?

We might be talking apples and oranges Dan.

Our current match is 9.3% and yes it's behind other carriers. Trying to get it raised and today's earnings numbers will help...as will every quarter going forward.

The 'senior' guys I'm talking about are long gone, just providing a historical perspective. When guys come on here and say the pilots didn't do well, they actually did. Could it have gone the other way? Absolutely. Just like the legacy pensions went the other way. Who of them would have dreamed they would be left with nothing? I'm sure they were told in initial they would retire multi-millionaires, but many don't have anything thanks to the bankruptcies.