No growth at SW until 2016 now

[PCL_128]

Well done Howie....

I will stand down.

You shouldn't. SWAPA had nothing to do with any of those things. They just do a great job of taking credit for the hard work of others. They also copied, verbatim, a contract comparison report that the DAL MEC put together, and sent it out to their pilots without any credit to DALPA. Like I said, masters at riding ALPA's coattails and taking credit for ALPA's achievements. But I guess you have to be if you want to keep conning your members into believing that they've got a better deal without ALPA.

 

[PCL_128]

First you tell us, PCL, that we're "going to get [our] asses handed to [us] in Section 6" because we're not part of ALPA. Then when someone points out Airtran ALPA's record, you use the other side of your mouth to point out that ALPA just "provides the resources," and it's up to local reps to use them or not. Well, it would be essentially the same group of people volunteering to represent Southwest pilots, whether it said "ALPA" or "SWAPA" on their lanyards, so exactly how would being in ALPA change anything? Seriously? Make up your mind already.

My mind is made up. Apparently your reading comprehension could just use some work. ALPA could provide you incredible resources on the negotiating front that you'll need in this Section 6. If you chose not to use them (as our MC did), then it would bite you in the ass. If you chose to use them, then they would be invaluable. The point is, the resources would be there. ALPA never crams them down your throat, though.

And other than just shouting that ALPA is "the best," nobody's addressed my actual points about the virtues of your own union. You remember, having ALPA national's interests not directly aligned with your own specific interests? For example, do you think you're ever going to get rid of outsoucing at Delta or United? Not with ALPA representing the regionals as well as yourselves, you won't.

The problem is that you don't understand how ALPA is structured. Again, ALPA provides resources. It doesn't give orders to individual MECs. If the DALPA pilots wanted to negotiate back scope, and they were willing to give up what it took to get it, then they would have nothing in their way of doing it. The fact that ALPA also represents the regionals doesn't mean anything, because no one at the regionals or at National has any control over DALPA bargaining.

 

[HowardBorden]

You shouldn't. SWAPA had nothing to do with any of those things. They just do a great job of taking credit for the hard work of others. They also copied, verbatim, a contract comparison report that the DAL MEC put together, and sent it out to their pilots without any credit to DALPA. Like I said, masters at riding ALPA's coattails and taking credit for ALPA's achievements. But I guess you have to be if you want to keep conning your members into believing that they've got a better deal without ALPA.

You're just wrong on this one PCL. SWAPA simply took a different tack on how to best develop a system of identifying Known Crewmembers. SWAPA went the direction of using biometric data to most securely identify the identity of crewmembers. The system developed and tested by SWAPA is in fact superior to the system that is currently in place even though it was not adopted for fear of cost problems. The original mandate included the need for a biometric component which is exactly why SWAPA went the direction of biometrics.


SecureScreen was jointly developed by the Southwest Airlines Pilots Association (SWAPA), Southwest Airlines (SWA), the Coalition of Airline Pilots Associations (CAPA), Maryland Aviation Authority (BWI), officials from TSA, and Priva Technologies. ClearedKey utilizes commercially available, biometrically enabled microchips with the government?s FIPS 140-2 Level 3 certification.
SecureScreen addresses the congressional mandates in H.R. 1 (Public Law 110-053), implementing the recommendations of the 9/11 Commission, which requires TSA to enhance security by properly identifying authorized airline flight deck and cabin crew members at screening checkpoints, granting them expedited access through screening checkpoints and to integrate biometric identifiers into airport security access control systems.
http://secureidnews.com/news-item/southwest-airline-pilots-undergo-biometric-screening/

The program, called SecureScreen, is a joint effort by the Transportation Security Administration, Southwest Airlines, the Southwest Airlines Pilots' Association, the Coalition of Airline Pilots Associations, Priva Technologies and the Maryland Aviation Administration.
More than 200 BWI-based Southwest Airlines pilots will participate in the project and have their fingerprints, photographs and other security information stored on Priva's ClearedKey devices. A reader at a TSA security checkpoint will verify pilots' identities against the devices' biometric data.
http://gcn.com/articles/2008/09/18/tsa-tests-biometrics-for-pilots.aspx?admgarea=TC_SECCYBERSSEC


SecureScreen addresses the congressional mandates in H.R. 1 (Public Law 110-053), implementing the recommendations of the 9/11 Commission, which requires TSA to enhance security by properly identifying authorized airline flight deck and cabin crew members at screening checkpoints, granting them expedited access through screening checkpoints and to integrate biometric identifiers into airport security access control systems. - See more at: http://secureidnews.com/news-item/so....GYbhET5Y.dpuf


The first participants in the SecureScreen program were 200 Southwest Airlines pilots who went through a quick enrollment process, which stored their fingerprints, photograph, and other protected security information on what is called a ClearedKey. It's a token with a USB interface. The ClearedKey data can only be accessed by TSA at a security checkpoint, where the ClearedKey reader verifies the pilot's fingerprint and also provides an additional layer of security by showing the TSA agent the pilot's photograph. After positive identification, TSA clears the pilot to proceed into the secure area to report for flight duty.

"The screening takes only a few seconds but it offers robust access control because it provides not only biometric identification of users, but an additional three different ID verification factors including the user's photo and the confirmation of the authenticity of the ClearedKey and the ClearedKey reader. In addition, the platform protects the privacy of the personal information provided by users and is designed to foil spoofing," says Chambers.
http://www.redorbit.com/news/busine...es_beyond_biometrics_says_priva_technologies/

 

[PCL_128]

Howie, you can keep droning on, but the fact remains that SWAPA had absolutely nothing to do with the program in place called Known Crewmember. Period. Captain Prater and ALPA worked on CrewPASS for years, and then eventually what came to be known as KCM, which is what you benefit under today, despite the fact that your union had absolutely nothing to do with it. Once again, riding on ALPA's coattails.

 

[twepilot]

"Captain Prater and ALPA worked on CrewPASS for years..." Why did something as simple as a modem, an internet connection, a lap top computer and a high school drop out take ALPO "years" to achieve?

RV

 

[PCL_128]

Because politicians, the TSA, and DHS are not very helpful.

 

[Dan Roman]

You're just wrong on this one PCL. SWAPA simply took a different tack on how to best develop a system of identifying Known Crewmembers. SWAPA went the direction of using biometric data to most securely identify the identity of crewmembers. The system developed and tested by SWAPA is in fact superior to the system that is currently in place even though it was not adopted for fear of cost problems. The original mandate included the need for a biometric component which is exactly why SWAPA went the direction of biometrics.


SecureScreen was jointly developed by the Southwest Airlines Pilots Association (SWAPA), Southwest Airlines (SWA), the Coalition of Airline Pilots Associations (CAPA), Maryland Aviation Authority (BWI), officials from TSA, and Priva Technologies. ClearedKey utilizes commercially available, biometrically enabled microchips with the government?s FIPS 140-2 Level 3 certification.
SecureScreen addresses the congressional mandates in H.R. 1 (Public Law 110-053), implementing the recommendations of the 9/11 Commission, which requires TSA to enhance security by properly identifying authorized airline flight deck and cabin crew members at screening checkpoints, granting them expedited access through screening checkpoints and to integrate biometric identifiers into airport security access control systems.
http://secureidnews.com/news-item/southwest-airline-pilots-undergo-biometric-screening/

The program, called SecureScreen, is a joint effort by the Transportation Security Administration, Southwest Airlines, the Southwest Airlines Pilots' Association, the Coalition of Airline Pilots Associations, Priva Technologies and the Maryland Aviation Administration.
More than 200 BWI-based Southwest Airlines pilots will participate in the project and have their fingerprints, photographs and other security information stored on Priva's ClearedKey devices. A reader at a TSA security checkpoint will verify pilots' identities against the devices' biometric data.
http://gcn.com/articles/2008/09/18/tsa-tests-biometrics-for-pilots.aspx?admgarea=TC_SECCYBERSSEC


SecureScreen addresses the congressional mandates in H.R. 1 (Public Law 110-053), implementing the recommendations of the 9/11 Commission, which requires TSA to enhance security by properly identifying authorized airline flight deck and cabin crew members at screening checkpoints, granting them expedited access through screening checkpoints and to integrate biometric identifiers into airport security access control systems. - See more at: http://secureidnews.com/news-item/so....GYbhET5Y.dpuf


The first participants in the SecureScreen program were 200 Southwest Airlines pilots who went through a quick enrollment process, which stored their fingerprints, photograph, and other protected security information on what is called a ClearedKey. It's a token with a USB interface. The ClearedKey data can only be accessed by TSA at a security checkpoint, where the ClearedKey reader verifies the pilot's fingerprint and also provides an additional layer of security by showing the TSA agent the pilot's photograph. After positive identification, TSA clears the pilot to proceed into the secure area to report for flight duty.

"The screening takes only a few seconds but it offers robust access control because it provides not only biometric identification of users, but an additional three different ID verification factors including the user's photo and the confirmation of the authenticity of the ClearedKey and the ClearedKey reader. In addition, the platform protects the privacy of the personal information provided by users and is designed to foil spoofing," says Chambers.
http://www.redorbit.com/news/busine...es_beyond_biometrics_says_priva_technologies/

Why does SWAPA want to do their own thing on this? Everyone would be better off if all unions pulled in the same direction. It appears SWAPA is working to have a SWA pilots version of KCM??? Why would they want something different than the quick easy deal we have now? They are still going to the same gates.

 

[fr8doggie]

SWAPA's efforts on this happened years ago, before KCM was approved. The two systems were being worked on in parallel. The article is from 2008.

 

[Dan Roman]

SWAPA's efforts on this happened years ago, before KCM was approved. The two systems were being worked on in parallel. The article is from 2008.

That might explain why it took so long. Two competing factions. That and Bureaucracy, of course. But again, why not work on one system for all pilots? Why would SWAPA interfere with what ALPA was working rather than support it?

 

[fr8doggie]

Because SWAPA is superior to ALPA in all things...

 

[SWA Bubba]

That might explain why it took so long. Two competing factions. That and Bureaucracy, of course. But again, why not work on one system for all pilots? Why would SWAPA interfere with what ALPA was working rather than support it?

How does exploring a different option (esp one that the government said it was pushing for--biometrics) qualify as "interfering with what ALPA was working on"? Seriously, Dan. Talk about spin.

If you really want to know, investigating two different methods of solving a problem in parallel, is considered a good strategy in most circles. That way, if one doesn't work (or isn't accepted) you're not at square one. The government said they wanted biometrics--SWAPA worked that angle. ALPA worked the cheaper, non-biometric angle. The government then realized that they were the government and liked cheap, so they went with the solution ALPA provided. So how is that SWAPA "interfering" with anything? And how exactly did you want SWAPA to "support" ALPA on this? Did you want our three guys to stand behind their three guys as they typed on their computers and shout words of encouragement: "Good job, boys! Keep up the good work!"?

Do you even listen to the stuff that you say, Dan?

Bubba

 

[Dan Roman]

We'll Bubba, sorry I got your goat. I just made the observation that combining Government with 2 different options can drag things out. Your spin would only be valid if both unions wanted to explore both options and decided as such, otherwise they should have pulled in the se direction for the betterment of all.

 

[PCL_128]

Dan, Bubba's statements just demonstrate how out to lunch SWAPA really is. They have no clue how government bureaucracy works, so they think they can go it alone and do something without the assistance of the only real voice of pilots in Washington. If they would just swallow their pride and pull on the same end of the rope, then we'd all be better off.

 

[HowardBorden]

Why does SWAPA want to do their own thing on this? Everyone would be better off if all unions pulled in the same direction. It appears SWAPA is working to have a SWA pilots version of KCM??? Why would they want something different than the quick easy deal we have now? They are still going to the same gates.

That might explain why it took so long. Two competing factions. That and Bureaucracy, of course. But again, why not work on one system for all pilots? Why would SWAPA interfere with what ALPA was working rather than support it?

Well Dan, SWAPA was working in conjunction with the TSA to develop a system that honored the suggestions of the 9/11 commission to include biometrics to accurately identify pilots.

"SecureScreen addresses the congressional mandates in H.R. 1 (Public Law 110-053), implementing the recommendations of the 9/11 Commission, which requires TSA to enhance security by properly identifying authorized airline flight deck and cabin crew members at screening checkpoints, granting them expedited access through screening checkpoints and to integrate biometric identifiers into airport security access control systems."

The ALPA solution did not include a "biometric" component unless you consider a photograph biometric, which apparently, ALPA in conjunction with Air Transport Association (now known as A4A) does. Even though the definition of biometrics is as follows: the measurement and analysis of unique physical or behavioral characteristics (as fingerprint or voice patterns) especially as a means of verifying personal identity.

The Air Line Pilots Association International, the nation's largest pilots union, and the Air Transport Association, which represents major airlines, are sponsoring the tests.
"We would define a photograph in the category of a biometric,'' said Steve Lott, spokesman for the Air Transport Association, which is collecting the pilot data from airlines and making it available to the TSA. "It's certainly not to the degree of an iris scan or a fingerprint, but we would say a photo can serve as a clear identifier of a person in combination with the information in the database."
The exclusion of concrete biometric validation, however, concerns some lawmakers.
"As a critical component of a risk-based approach to passenger screening, I support expediting pilots and flight attendants through security checkpoints. I believe it is imperative that this program include a biometric component to verify crew identities, thus implementing a higher standard of security and access control,'' said U.S. Rep. Bennie Thompson, D-Miss., ranking member of the House Committee on Homeland Security.
Some aviation security experts also caution that a document-based system can be defeated by sophisticated individuals.

The SWAPA system was eventually not implemented even though it was a superior solution. Guess who lobbied against the SWAPA system, you guessed it the airline lobbying group A4A. They were shockingly more concerned with cost rather than safety even though the SWAPA solution would require similar costs.

"But biometric ID validation can be implemented at approximately the same cost as less-secure methods, according to officials at a company that was involved in testing in 2008 with Southwest Airlines pilots at Baltimore Washington International Airport.
"The dollar amounts will probably be identical,'' said Jeff Minushkin, chairman of Priva Technologies Inc., which supplied the biometric devices in the Southwest test. "But the bottom line is that, if you don't have the money to do it right, don't do it at all.''
The organization representing U.S. airports is confident that biometrics will be introduced, if not now, then later."

http://southwest.investorroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=958
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...est-pilots-union-security-screening-biometric

 

[PCL_128]

Gee, what a shock that tiny little SWAPA couldn't be more effective than the largest pilots' union in the world combining forces with the largest airline trade organization in the world.

 

[Tripower455]

Gee, what a shock that tiny little SWAPA couldn't be more effective than the largest pilots' union in the world combining forces with the largest airline trade organization in the world.

The irony is that many ALPA folks (some on this forum!) blame SWApA for the age 60 change, as if Paul Emens & Co. annoying every aide on Crapitol Hill was gonna have ANY effect whatsoever....

I predicted, in 1998, that it wouldn't change until ALPA wanted it changed. When they changed their tune, it was what, less than a year before it changed?

Our over 60 guys still walk around patting themselves on the back!

 

[HowardBorden]

Gee, what a shock that tiny little SWAPA couldn't be more effective than the largest pilots' union in the world combining forces with the largest airline trade organization in the world.

Face the facts. SWAPA built a better mousetrap. It fulfilled the recommendations of the 9/11 commission and the desires of the House Committee on Homeland Security.

You seem to be smugly happy to cozy up to the largest lobbying group for airline profits, that shot this better solution down even though it was far superior, because airlines are more concerned with profits than safety.

You are so blinded by ALPA loyalty even in the presence of overwhelming evidence that SWAPA built a better system at an identical price point. You sing the praises of ALPA for combining efforts with the largest lobbying group for airline profits in direct opposition to the traveling public's safety.

Congratulations.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Dan, Bubba's statements just demonstrate how out to lunch SWAPA really is. They have no clue how government bureaucracy works, so they think they can go it alone and do something without the assistance of the only real voice of pilots in Washington. If they would just swallow their pride and pull on the same end of the rope, then we'd all be better off.

Like I said, despite the BS on this board, SWAPA, ALPA, APA, etc. are pulling on the same end of the rope. All work for pilots in the industry, and helping any one group of pilots helps all.

PCL says ALPA is the "only real voice of pilots..."? Please. Just because PCL thinks that only ALPA should exist, and that nobody else might do any good for anyone, doesn't mean crap. Good God, his only job left is to cheerlead for ALPA, and spray ALPA kookaid as wide as he can with his firehose. Sure, ALPA is the oldest and biggest, and certainly they have the most Executive Vice Presidents, but that doesn't mean that every idea they have is best, or that nobody else can have a good idea.

You know, PCL, if you spent your time actually advocating for all pilots, instead of sowing hate, discontent, and tribalism among all the pilot unions, the entire industry would be better off. Your shtick of proclaiming that "ALPA is the only way; all other unions are false" is like those Moonies passing out flowers in airports, trying to convert everyone else to their cult. It's actually kinda' funny sometimes.

You like ALPA? Good for you. However, it's not the only good union; it's not for everyone. The largest airline in the world (American) doesn't want you; UPS doesn't want you; we don't want you. So what. We're happier with our own in-house union. Why do you have such a hard time getting that through your head?

Bubba

 

[DUBLINFLYER]

PCL - what did your great ALPA do for you = nothing but take your dues and prolong your lower wages at AT, wake up and come over to the light unless you've applied for a job at Wal Mart

 

[redflyer65]

You know, PCL, if you spent your time actually advocating for all pilots, instead of sowing hate, discontent, and tribalism among all the pilot unions, the entire industry would be better off. Your shtick of proclaiming that "ALPA is the only way; all other unions are false" is like those Moonies passing out flowers in airports, trying to convert everyone else to their cult. It's actually kinda' funny sometimes.



Bubba

Precisely Bubba. To PCL, if it ain't ALPA it's crap. Which couldn't be farther from the truth.