No comment on ASA PBS LOA yet?

[atlcrjdriver]

They sort of are tied together. If we give up PBS now then we would never be able to bargain onelist with a good seniority merger. We trade PBS for merger.

Is that what 25 pgs was about, you want a single list? While a single list would be great for the ASA pilot group we will never be one list until the powers that be in SGU agrees with you, PBS or not. Most of our group agree that PBS is on the way, either now or with the next contract. If it is with the next contract there won't be a single list clause in it. Why not take an industry leading PBS system now and work with it over the next several months to get the kinks worked out during negotiations?

If you read the LOA, it is not a bad system that will improve our QOL.

 

[OCP]

Is that what 25 pgs was about, you want a single list? While a single list would be great for the ASA pilot group we will never be one list until the powers that be in SGU agrees with you, PBS or not. Most of our group agree that PBS is on the way, either now or with the next contract. If it is with the next contract there won't be a single list clause in it. Why not take an industry leading PBS system now and work with it over the next several months to get the kinks worked out during negotiations?

If you read the LOA, it is not a bad system that will improve our QOL.

Actually if you've been reading his posts through the whole thing his point has changed about 5 times. This one list thing is the latest.

 

[USCtrojan]

Wait a minute! Are we talking about One List or PBS? Those are two totally different issues! They are not tied together.

You speak of 4 airplanes that were transferred to Skywest--Yes, it happened and there is no doubt that it was a planned move because we would not roll over. Did it change anything in negotiations? If it was such an effective thing, then more would have been transferred! Why did that not happen? The Sky was not falling then, and it is not falling now!

Now, let's address PBS--which is a separate issue from One List. Delta and every DCI carrier has PBS. Plain and simple, if PBS does not pass the vote, we may be punished, but we might not be. You, nor I can guarantee that. I will guarantee that PBS will be at ASA! PBS will be at ASA either after passing the vote, or should the vote fail, there is no doubt that the Company will obtain it in Sections 6, because every other DCI carrier and Delta has PBS. Just as we can ask for Industry Standards and usually obtain it, the Company will do the same and there is no doubt that a mediator will side with them on this issue. The Sky is not falling, but PBS is coming!

So, the question that should be posed to our pilot group is, "Would you rather accept PBS now, with OUR work rules, or would you rather have it renegotiated with THEIR work rules in Section 6 that will be obtained with a 3rd party Mediator that will be overseeing and to some degree governing the process? I would rather have PBS on the ASA Pilot Group's terms, NOW! (Joe and PCL can validate my assertion about Section 6 and the outcome!)

What if we are not seen as an asset anymore? Could we not be sold? I'd like to put an end to all that. There would be an added benefit of having virtually the whole Country to fly out of. That's a nice add on, but not the main reasoning behind wanting OneList.

We are an asset because we have a contract for about the next 12 years or so with the strongest and most viable Major Carrier and we have the greatest DCI presence in their main hub. Skywest may own us, but Delta still controls our destiny. What would be so wrong with being sold? If we were sold, I would imagine the Party who has the most vested interest in us would be the Principal. For that reason, I don't want one list, and don't want to go down that road spending one cent of capital trying to achieve it. (I know that it will never happen, and for good reason!) We are much more valuable as a separate company and it is more beneficial to keep us separate. If I had to guess, I would say that there may be something contractual somewhere that dictates that we will remain separate to protect the interests of Contractor.

Lastly, from a risk assessment perspective, ASA is better protected by remaining separate because the Contractor, that our sister company feeds with about 60% of it's operations, is at GREAT RISK of failure! Should that happen, the fact that we are separate and have great value to Inc. and our Main Contractor, might create a (fire sale) sell back opportunity! That situation would be a reversal of position for the same Principals, with our company, once again, being the property and object of the transaction. (Give that one some thought!)

Separte Lists and separate companies provide us with more protection--especially in this economy and these times. We have mass and value which make us very important to our Contractor. In addition, I'm quite sure that some people on Virginia Avenue would get great pleasure out of squeezing a certain CEO like he squeezed them in 2005! Payback is sweet!

You or I wouldn't have to worry about being sold, or rejecting PBS or rejecting anything for that matter if there was OneList. It provides our pilots the greatest amount of security all things considered. If our sister carrier becomes at risk, we will fall, SkyWest is cheaper, remember? SkyWest did not furlough, ASA did....Coincidence?

Asset. Right now we are valuable. Could change, March 8th, when the vote becomes due. We don't get to decide whether we are valuable. We have control to provide a valuable safe service, and as long as we do it, we are valuable. As Joe M. put it, we are playing poker and Inc. knows what we have in our hand. We play ball, or we suffer hard. We wouldn't have to suffer if we had OneList. 900's that are slated to come to us, will. ASA is a very valuable asset right now.....Let's keep it that way, regardless of Industry dynamics.

And to address a previous point you made.... You spoke for 1500 other pilots regarding OneList...I have and do not. I am 1 vote and I am in favor of OneList for an end to whipsaw and greater job security. My opinion, and it is shared by a few others I know. Can't speak for them, just for myself.

Trojan

 

[USCtrojan]

Actually if you've been reading his posts through the whole thing his point has changed about 5 times. This one list thing is the latest.

LMAO!! You are a patient man. I, err, mean person, to be politically correct!

Trojan

 

[Speedtape]

You or I wouldn't have to worry about being sold, or rejecting PBS or rejecting anything for that matter if there was OneList. It provides our pilots the greatest amount of security all things considered.
Onelist, as you call it, guarantees nothing. Skywest pilots have been manipulated for years--long before we came along. The only quasi security is being associated with the most viable Major carrier in the industry and having the greatest presence in the main hub. When that changes, we have problems.
If our sister carrier becomes at risk, we will fall, SkyWest is cheaper, remember?
This statement is flawed thinking. When Delta became at risk a few years ago, did we fall? No, we were an asset with some value, and when sold, the resultant funds financed their bankruptcy and their credit lines. The sale of our Company saved their bacon, and the purchaser benefitted by guaranteeing 2, 20-year contracts that were contingent upon the affirmation of the Bankruptcy Court. Should the Chicago contractor fail, Skywest, a separate company with a separate seniority list will be at great risk since 60% of their total operations are dedicated to this Contractor. Our Company, a separate Corporation with a separate seniority list, would be a valuable asset, and thus the sale of which could keep Inc. afloat, with most of their current Retained Earnings plus the proceeds from our sale. Inc. would then have over 1 billion $ in the bank, and with no airlines to run, but plenty of cash to invest in this or other industries. Inc. would be the winner.

SkyWest did not furlough, ASA did....Coincidence?
Granted, those are the facts. However, do you really think Onelist would prevent a furlough, even with a combined list? Heck, NO, is my answer! So, Onelist will not protect from a furlough!


Asset. Right now we are valuable. Could change, March 8th, when the vote becomes due. We don't get to decide whether we are valuable. We have control to provide a valuable safe service, and as long as we do it, we are valuable.
Once again, to some degree this is flawed thinking! We do have some control. As a pilot group, we have to negotiate in a "zone of reasonableness!" We can not stand out from the crowd. Unfortunately, we have to be submissive to the "designs and goals" of the Portfolio concept. We do get to decide whether we are valuable and "viable" by what we negotiate and by being "smartly submissive" in those areas where we do stand out. As of today, we are the only DCI carrier without PBS, including the Contractor; if we don't vote it in, we are shooting ourselves in the foot, or better yet, maybe blowing our feet off!!!!

As Joe M. put it, we are playing poker and Inc. knows what we have in our hand. We play ball, or we suffer hard.
I would strongly agree with Joe M.!!!! Joe M. may sometimes be a Contrarian, but he knows the industry and thinks outside the box!

We wouldn't have to suffer if we had OneList. 900's that are slated to come to us, will. ASA is a very valuable asset right now.....Let's keep it that way, regardless of Industry dynamics.
We got 10, 900's last year and we don't have Onelist! To remain a valuable asset, we have to be competitive in costs and accept PBS(on our terms) in this vote! Otherwise, "Let the Games Begin," will be the theme at ASA and the Winter Olympics! Once again, PBS will be here, on our terms with the passage of the vote, or in Section 6 on the Company's terms where a third party will govern the process and show them favor because every other carrier in our brand has it!

And to address a previous point you made.... You spoke for 1500 other pilots regarding OneList...I have and do not. I am 1 vote and I am in favor of OneList for an end to whipsaw and greater job security. My opinion, and it is shared by a few others I know. Can't speak for them, just for myself.
You are mainly for Onelist because it is highly probable that your residence is in the Salt Lake City area and are tired of commuting(understandable, but don't hide it!) Onelist, even if it was attainable, will not provide job security to any large degree, and it will not eliminate whipsaw. As long as we are in the Porfolio of this brand, we will be subject to whipsaw! We are one of about 8 vendors providing services to a Contractor and even if that number is reduced by one, it will not change the ability to whipsaw.

There are many good reasons that can be argued that maintaining separate lists give our pilots more protection! Onelist arguments are arbitrary, emotional, unpredictable, and even under the ideal outcomes provide NO guarantees! Being competitive in terms of pay and work rules, and adopting PBS(because we standout against the rest on this issue) will help maintain our status quo and should provide opportunities in the future!

Read the above very carefully!

 

[aircombat]

The case you need to be looking at is Japan Air Lines vs. International Association of Machinists (1975). The court ruled that scope issues, in this case the issue of outsourcing, were permissive subjects of bargaining.

But the specific case is not important. What's important is what the NMB actually recognizes, and they don't recognize scope provisions as being mandatory subjects of bargaining. The reason for this is what the Railway Labor Act actually says.

Section 2, First of the Act requires the parites to: "...exert every reasonable effort to make and maintain agreements concerning rates of pay, rules, and working conditions."

Those are the three items specified in the Act as being mandatory. In other words, compensation (which includes retirement and insurance), scheduling, and related working conditions (vacation, sick leave, etc.). A grievance process is also required by a separate section of the Act, so that is also mandatory. Other subjects are permissive. You keep looking at cases and documents that pertain to the National Labor Relations Act, which has very different rules on just about everything than the RLA does.

Thank you PCL for your constructive input. I’m ready to admit that I was wrong about this issue. There is no question that there is a lot of grey area on this issue and it is still being tested in courts.

I did read the example you gave and it’s about subcontracting not mergers. However it does mention “scope”. It was also a long time ago and many laws have changed since then. The most recent example I can find is the Frontier/RAH case. The RAH employees failed to get a single carrier determination “(only the union or employee can petition for a single carrier determination)”. They lost because like us they are separate operating certificates but also because there was no intermingling of the companies. I know it’s a long shot however there has been asset swaps which could constitute intermingling. If a single carrier determination is reached then it would fall under Public Law 110-161 which is what the latest mergers have been using. A good article about that and airline labor mergers can be found here http://www.house.leg.state.mn.us/hrd/pubs/airlinemg.pdf

Since all of that is a long shot if people are interested in onelist, it would be even more important to hold onto PBS. It would be the only leverage we have to get the company to talk about it “in good faith”.

 

[OCP]

Not to but in on the argument but where did the "OneList" thing come from? I mean the term. The way everyone is using capitals and one word makes it look like it's copyrighted or something.

 

[Speedtape]

Not to but in on the argument but where did the "OneList" thing come from? I mean the term. The way everyone is using capitals and one word makes it look like it's copyrighted or something.

I guess the same question could be asked about the origin of "OCP" or "Speedtape."

 

[PCL_128]

I did read the example you gave and it’s about subcontracting not mergers. However it does mention “scope”. It was also a long time ago and many laws have changed since then.

The RLA has not changed since then. It hasn't been touched in decades.

I know it’s a long shot however there has been asset swaps which could constitute intermingling.

ALPA has fought for several single-carrier petitions, and it's incredibly difficult. Your MEC is doing the smart thing: waiting for Inc. to screw up and integrate too much of their operation. At that point, they'll be able to go to the NMB and request a single-carrier ruling. At this point, based on past precedence, there just isn't enough operational integration to be successful in a single-carrier filing. Be patient and the time will come.

Since all of that is a long shot if people are interested in onelist, it would be even more important to hold onto PBS. It would be the only leverage we have to get the company to talk about it “in good faith”.

The company has no obligation to talk to you about OneList. PBS isn't leverage, because they know in Section 6 that they can get a less favorable PBS system for you, so they would have no incentive to bargain over OneList. In fact, you would probably have to give up some scope protections in order to buy back the LOA that you want to pass up now. Otherwise, you'll end up with a far worse PBS system in Section 6.

This is your prime opportunity to get a favorable PBS system. The company wants it sooner than Section 6 in order to be more efficient now rather than later, so you have the leverage. If you turn it down and they have to wait until Section 6, then you've lost your only leverage.

 

[aircombat]

Actually if you've been reading his posts through the whole thing his point has changed about 5 times. This one list thing is the latest.

I wouldn’t say my “point has changed 5 times”. I would say that I have 5 reasons why PBS is a bad idea. Probably more than 5. Onelist is just another really important reason why this LOA should be turned down. If you really care about your future. Peaople say I'm worried what they could do to us if we hold out. They are very limited at what they can do because of the no-furlough clause. They have already done the worse and you don't even realize it.

 

[www.]

After everyones ideas on the PBS issue I think we all can agree that "aircombat" will vote no. After 26 pages can the MOD close this thread please. Can you say dead horse?

 

[USCtrojan]

Read the above very carefully!

I'm not as computer savvy as you so I'll try and respond in my own manner.....

How many of those 136 furloughed would still have their job with OneList Speedtape? Speculation, sure, but my guess there wouldn't be as many on the street. That's greater job security.

United just secured funding from many different places. My guess is they will prosper here in the future as the economy pendulum swings the other direction. And SkyWest Inc. did change that 80% rule as far as connecting out of Atlanta -- they can swap as much as they'd like between ASA and SkyWest.....How many flights does ASA operate out of SLC? If you believe Delta is the one scheduling these flights, that is your illusion. Inc. has complete control over ASA...What's to say they declare Ch. 11 on the ASA side, gut our Contract and replace airframes (as they already have) to replace them with their own. Fairy tale? Maybe, but that's what I believe would happen should YoNited fail. Wouldn't have to worry about that if we were one. Jerry is gonna win, always. I'm glad we're playing ball right now, maybe enough of us have learned what happens when we don't?

If you are under the illusion the Union dictates anything to the Company, then your reasoning is flawed. Fortunately, our Mgmt. team, for the first time in ASA's history, is working with the Union. That can change any time they feel like it. One of the reasons I don't want to be sold, Speedtape. I don't believe any other Regional Airline out there has as good as working relationship AND as financially secure.

Not that my commute is any of your concern, it's quite easy (2 to 3 a month). That helps when your a senior pilot, Speedtape. One leg with lots of days off. Have almost 3 weeks straight without vacation now. Family in Atlanta so no crashpad. It's really ideal for me.

You are an ALPA chest thumping devoted lover. You would sacrifice anything to keep the Union on the property. Understandable. If the Lists were combined, chances are you'd lose Union representation. That's why you are not in favor of OneList. Good for you.

United we stand, divided we fall. Cliche, yes, but quite the reality.


Trojan

 

[aircombat]

The company has no obligation to talk to you about OneList. PBS isn't leverage, because they know in Section 6 that they can get a less favorable PBS system for you, so they would have no incentive to bargain over OneList. In fact, you would probably have to give up some scope protections in order to buy back the LOA that you want to pass up now. Otherwise, you'll end up with a far worse PBS system in Section 6.

How can there be a “worse PBS system”? Maybe by using a different computer program.
There really isn’t much in this LOA concerning PBS. The vacation bit is about the only thing I noticed. I just can’t see the pilots voting in a PBS system with no vacation language in it, and I doubt that the company would wait until it went to arbitration. Plus the union could say no to arbitration.

 

[aircombat]

Not to but in on the argument but where did the "OneList" thing come from? I mean the term. The way everyone is using capitals and one word makes it look like it's copyrighted or something.

It’s important enough that it should be copyrighted. If I had to guess it was probably someone forgetting to use the spacebar and it stuck.

 

[Speedtape]

I'm not as computer savvy as you so I'll try and respond in my own manner.....

How many of those 136 furloughed would still have their job with OneList Speedtape? Speculation, sure, but my guess there wouldn't be as many on the street. That's greater job security.
All 136, and maybe more. The block hours were reduced. Less work, less need for workers is the reason 136 were furloughed.

United just secured funding from many different places. My guess is they will prosper here in the future as the economy pendulum swings the other direction.
United is leveraged to the hilt. Their plans are based on a turnaround next year. If that does not happen, Kaput!
And SkyWest Inc. did change that 80% rule as far as connecting out of Atlanta -- they can swap as much as they'd like between ASA and SkyWest.....How many flights does ASA operate out of SLC?
Have you seen that language. The answer is NO. ASA operates no flights out of SLC, but Mesaba does! Delta controls who goes where.

If you believe Delta is the one scheduling these flights, that is your illusion. Inc. has complete control over ASA...

Delta controls all scheduling. Inc. has some control, but they do what they are told.
What's to say they declare Ch. 11 on the ASA side, gut our Contract and replace airframes (as they already have) to replace them with their own. Fairy tale? Maybe, but that's what I believe would happen should YoNited fail. Wouldn't have to worry about that if we were one. Jerry is gonna win, always. I'm glad we're playing ball right now, maybe enough of us have learned what happens when we don't?
ASA will not be going away. If Yournited goes away, ASA will still be in business and will still have the largest presence in ATL. Read the DCI contract. We are no where near Chapter 11 and never will be.

If you are under the illusion the Union dictates anything to the Company, then your reasoning is flawed. Fortunately, our Mgmt. team, for the first time in ASA's history, is working with the Union. That can change any time they feel like it. One of the reasons I don't want to be sold, Speedtape. I don't believe any other Regional Airline out there has as good as working relationship AND as financially secure.
They are working with the Union because they know that they have to have the pilot group participation in meeting their performance goals. That is where they make their money. I think the Union serves a role and I would rather be represented by ALPA than Sapa.

Not that my commute is any of your concern, it's quite easy (2 to 3 a month). That helps when your a senior pilot, Speedtape. One leg with lots of days off. Have almost 3 weeks straight without vacation now. Family in Atlanta so no crashpad. It's really ideal for me.
Your commute would not change with OneList. Most likely, there would be fences that would be around for years. Your commute is not that easy. I guess it's good that it is ideal, since you will be commuting for the rest of your ASA career, Onelist or Separate.

You are an ALPA chest thumping devoted lover. You would sacrifice anything to keep the Union on the property. Understandable. If the Lists were combined, chances are you'd lose Union representation. That's why you are not in favor of OneList. Good for you.
I am an ALPA member, just like you. I am not a thumper, but it does irritate me when chumps attack a bargaining unit that has helped provide excellent pay rates, benefits, and work rules. ALPA was here when most of them signed on and Skywest has been in business longer than ASA. So why did you and they come here? Just curious. I am not in favor of Onelist because it would create a nightmare and it would place too much at risk. Most Skywest pilots are also against Onelist. It will never happen unless Inc. "wills" it and there are many reasons why that will not happen.

United we stand, divided we fall. Cliche, yes, but quite the reality.
Yonited Falls, and ASA will still be standing! Have a nice commute!


Trojan

How bout them Trojans!