NMB to ASA: keep negotiating

[VeeOne]

Yes, I have voiced my concerns to the MEC. Yes, the answer I got was satisfactory. BA does not carry nearly the weight you imagine he does these days. He is no longer in a position to dictate policy. My main problem with the current arrangement is a financial one. I feel that MEC money can be spent in better ways.

If you think BA is still driving policy in the ALPA office, you are very much mistaken.

Having said that, I feel that if BA were given free reign he would be happy to drive ASA to a strike purely for personal reasons. Thankfully, he no longer has the power to do so. BA is not the "man behind the curtain" that you imagine he is.

Fmr- glad to hear someone brought it up. I have been very weary of BA's impact and pull on things. It was a relief to see him move on. I'm more into the business aspect of things, and not the personal vendettas. BA was clearly out to push things to the edge and beyond.

 

[ASADriver]

Why are we still paying Bob? More wasted money! I'm glad I'm helping to pay for his retirement. Nobody seems to care for him, but our ALPA dues are going to him.

 

[GeekMaster]

This whole ordeal is like a Talledega Nights Ricky Bobby "If you ain't first your last" mentality. Even the hardnose ALPAITES know we should probably ease off our expectations a little but don't want to be peceived as losing.

 

[ASADriver]

This whole ordeal is like a Talledega Nights Ricky Bobby "If you ain't first your last" mentality. Even the hardnose ALPAITES know we should probably ease off our expectations a little but don't want to be peceived as losing.

Well then let's throw the bums out and put someone in who will get real!

 

[601Pilot]

Again, stay focused on the real issue. Actions by the line pilots NO LONGER HAVE THE ABILITY TO CRIPPLE THE OPERATION!!! Believe me I wish they did. Then at least the line pilots would have a voice in this thing. I DO TALK TO MY REPS and so do many others. They tell us all the same thing....."be patient, we're gonna get released." It's like a carnival midway game; you keep throwing your money on the table while the carnie tells you that you're so close to winning. You don't realize the game is stacked until you're out of money.

As for growing a set? Assume for a moment that every single pilot on line "grew a set" tomorrow and the radio was totally silent. Then you'd likely see quite a spike in delays due to lack of communication for need of service. The new Delta ground operations would complain to the ASA VP of flight ops. He'd say, "I'll take care of it". A day or two later, we'd get a flight ops bulletin saying, "beginning immediately, all captains will now be responsible for notifying ops via radio if all services necassary for departure haven't been performed by boarding time. If said services still haven't been performed by 20 minutes prior to departure, the captain shall re-notify ops." Guess what, you'd have to do it and he wouldn't owe you jack in extra pay AND he you'd be subject to disciplinary actions if you refused to make that radio call and caused your flight a delay.

I'M NOT AGAINST FLYING THE CONTRACT. I'm simply pointing out in very real terms why it won't work. As www. said, "Life is like driving a car. As you go down the road of life when you look at the rearview mirror you see everything behind you. You can't turn around, but when you look out the windshield you see everything coming up in front of you. You can change direction moving forward."

Since "growing a set" isn't gonna work "for whatever" reason, it might be time to change direction.

How about we try out your theory and see if it plays out that way? If you are right and I'm wrong, I will gladly say so.

 

[GeekMaster]

How about we try out your theory and see if it plays out that way? If you are right and I'm wrong, I will gladly say so.

I'm guessing when you say "try out my theory", your referring to the portion of the post about "if everyone grew a set and the radio was silent tomorrow". If so, here comes the bad news. I/WE have been attempting to do that for over 4 years now. Go back and read my other posts as to why it hasn't worked and will never work. I'll summarize.

1. Pilots aren't helping the operation as a favor to the company. They're doing it to help themselves; be it getting to the hotel or getting back in time to make that flight home.

2. If for some reason they miraculously did have a good "silent" day, Tutt would enact a new rule and then we'd be required to call for our services. That's new sir, that's the way it used to be and a stroke of the pen can make it return with NO additional compensation to you.

3. At the current prices the company is paying for open time pick up, pilots are NOT going to stop picking it up. As I said on a previous post, I've been bumped out of day lines by rather prominent figures in the ALPA community.

4. If for some reason we miraculously found a way to hurt the operation through some method not correctable through Section 1G of the CBA, a judge would slap out a status quo and a possible fine to fix'er right up.

I wish it would work, but over 4 years has WELL proved it won't.

If on the other hand you're referring to the part at the bottom of my post about "changing direction", the first step is to find a way to inform our reps....enmasse.....thereby proving to them we are no longer a minority....that we want a change in direction.

We can't just "start" with decert. or recall. We first need to "justify" that what we want represents a majority.

 

[GeekMaster]

reason number 2 should read:

That's NOT new sir, that's the way.......

 

[regionalcap]

Exactly..... I'm enjoying the $120/hour to fly an ATR....... about the same as a USAirways A320 Capt. rate....

Hmmm...just looking in the contract and top pay is about $83 for the ATR. Just curious how you get $120 an hour.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Hmmm...just looking in the contract and top pay is about $83 for the ATR. Just curious how you get $120 an hour.

It was in reference to picking up open time which is currently being paid at 150%.......

 

[JoeMerchant]

That'll put a lot of gas in the trawler. But it ain't helping the cause.

You know who.

Yeah I know who.... What exactly is the "cause"?

The trawler takes a lot of gas.... The dayline I picked up this week just about fills it up....

 

[601Pilot]

I'm guessing when you say "try out my theory", your referring to the portion of the post about "if everyone grew a set and the radio was silent tomorrow". If so, here comes the bad news. I/WE have been attempting to do that for over 4 years now. Go back and read my other posts as to why it hasn't worked and will never work. I'll summarize.

1. Pilots aren't helping the operation as a favor to the company. They're doing it to help themselves; be it getting to the hotel or getting back in time to make that flight home.

2. If for some reason they miraculously did have a good "silent" day, Tutt would enact a new rule and then we'd be required to call for our services. That's new sir, that's the way it used to be and a stroke of the pen can make it return with NO additional compensation to you.

3. At the current prices the company is paying for open time pick up, pilots are NOT going to stop picking it up. As I said on a previous post, I've been bumped out of day lines by rather prominent figures in the ALPA community.

4. If for some reason we miraculously found a way to hurt the operation through some method not correctable through Section 1G of the CBA, a judge would slap out a status quo and a possible fine to fix'er right up.

I wish it would work, but over 4 years has WELL proved it won't.

I give up trying to change your mind. Just keep doing what you are doing and keep your fingers crossed something gets done in the next 2 years. Why is everyone so scared of Tutt, Hall, and a possible fine by a judge?

 

[GeekMaster]

601,

It's not about changing my mind. It's about facing reality. I am not JB and I have NEVER advocated accepting paycuts. I've personally tried from the beginning of negotiations to "fly the contract". It would have been great to see it work. The fact is, the company prepared for it ahead of time. They changed all their rules and procedures to render it ineffective. As far as open time goes, our own ALPA hardliners pick up 150% trips just like everyone else.

My biggest message on that issue is "it might be time to change direction".

There's an old saying: "KEEP DOING WHAT YOU'RE DOING AND YOU'LL KEEP GETTIN WHAT YOU'RE GETTIN". That statement is holding absolute truth for ALPA and management alike. I'm not an anti-union guy. We need representation. When Newie was a captain's rep he used to run around teaching all the pilots to say, "ALPA speaks for me and I tell them what to say".

I simply think it's time to open up the ballotpointe.com and survey ALL PILOTS on the remaining open issues.........and make it binding. That way the true majority really is telling ALPA what to say on our behalf. Keep in mind, we the pilot group haven't been surveyed At-Large since the original questionaire 5 years ago before negotiations started. Through attrition, we are an entirely different group of pilots and times are TOTALLY different.

THEN, if you are right and I am wrong, I will support this thing to the bitter end. (or until I get my furlough papers, but I am well into the top 25%, so that'll be awhile)

 

[JoeMerchant]

601,

It's not about changing my mind. It's about facing reality. I am not JB and I have NEVER advocated accepting paycuts.

GeekMaster,
I never advocated taking paycuts. When this started 5 years ago, I thought the CMR rates were attainable. Certain ALPA people say I advocated taking paycuts so as to discredit my positions. That is a lie. This is a common and effective tactic that ALPA uses. It was used by the Delta MEC during the PID filing to get people to think that the ASA and CMR MECs were demanding DOH.

As Twain said:

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on it's shoes."

 

[ASA_Aviator]

What part of "grow a set" don't you understand? Just keep doing nothing and we'll drag out for another 5 years.

Whatever.

 

[601Pilot]

Whatever.

Okay, since you disagree, what is one reason management would settle this contract anytime soon? They have a fixed cost in place with only longevity raises to worry about, the pilots obviously do not care when this contract gets finished if you look at our performance numbers (i.e. not much different numbers in the past couple of years), and the company's total revenue/profit is consistent.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Okay, since you disagree, what is one reason management would settle this contract anytime soon? They have a fixed cost in place with only longevity raises to worry about, the pilots obviously do not care when this contract gets finished if you look at our performance numbers (i.e. not much different numbers in the past couple of years), and the company's total revenue/profit is consistent.

You assume that just because most people aren't willing to screw themselves by attempting to screw the company that they don't want the contract to be completed. I want nothing more than the contract to be settled, and to move on. What I am not willing to do is run the company into the ground in the process. It is lunacy to think that the company will be somehow driven to pay us more if we cost them more. Stupid beyond belief!

The company wants this contract settled so Jerry can tell any new business out there that the costs are known. Right now, the costs are a big ole' question mark, because both the company and the union are at the mercy of the mediation board. The company does not like being in this position, and that in itself is enough to push them to get this contract settled.

Let us play a hypothetical, with a few assumptions:

Assumption 1: Jerry Atkin will shrink the company if our costs are too high.

Assumption 2: If the contract is settled at the union proposal the costs will be too high.

Given those assumptions, the company would be ethically bound to attempt to get the rates down to an acceptable level. The management has the responsibility to protect the livelihood of each of the employees, and if they sign off on a contract that they truly believe will cause ASA to shrink, they would be doing something morally reprehensible.

(That being said, I think it is morally reprehensible for our pilot group to do anything (such as illegal job actions) to cost the company money, and to jeaopardize the remaining employee's jobs. But that's for another post.)

So there you have it. I believe that we should do the best job we can, make the most money we can for the company in the most efficient way possible. Basically, we should do our jobs, and continue the negotiation process until it is complete. At least then I can shave in the morning...and sleep at night.

 

[jstyle13]

So there you have it. I believe that we should do the best job we can, make the most money we can for the company in the most efficient way possible. Basically, we should do our jobs, and continue the negotiation process until it is complete. At least then I can shave in the morning...and sleep at night.

Right...... How bout we take paycuts so the pilot group could make even more money for the company. Why not do that? Then, you could come fly an extra day or 2 a month for free and make EVEN more money for the company.

Mabye they will even give you a $25 gift card to Best Buy for your Christmas bonus this year since the company made all this money......

whatever

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Right...... How bout we take paycuts so the pilot group could make even more money for the company. Why not do that? Then, you could come fly an extra day or 2 a month for free and make EVEN more money for the company.

Mabye they will even give you a $25 gift card to Best Buy for your Christmas bonus this year since the company made all this money......

whatever

You're 100% correct. How could I have been so stupid! It doesn't matter at all how much money we bring in for the company. ASA makes money even if NO planes fly on time or get where they are supposed to go. Even if it didn't make money, they would certainly pay our paychecks anyway.

Come on people. This is a business. If no money is made, the company fails, and we LOSE OUR JOBS. Intentionally wasting money is unethical, and certainly not in our best interest.

 

[Tomct]

Come on people. This is a business. If no money is made, the company fails, and we LOSE OUR JOBS. Intentionally wasting money is unethical, and certainly not in our best interest.[/quote]

Yeah, you are right, this is a business, but when our DUMBASS company continues to screw us time and time again.....it is time to say SCREW THEM! Funny how SWA makes TONS of money and yet...their employee's are making GOOD money. Now don't get me wrong, I don't expect SWA pay, but I do expect to make Good money...enough to keep up with inflation in the least. Now if that is asking too much....then maybe this company SHOULD GO AWAY!! Their business plan is broken and we are being led by a bunch of IDIOTS! They have made enough money off the backs of their employee's these last 6 years...it is time to PAY THE PIPER!!:angryfire

 

[GeekMaster]

Tomcat,

I agree that ASA is poorly managed. The industry agrees. The experts agree to the point that ASA is considered the worst managed in the industry. I hope that someday that can be fixed, but for now, it seems that BL and CT are purposely being left in place until this all plays out.

My point is simple though. WHO THE HELL ARE YOU to want to make "ASA go away" so you can pocket a so called "big retro check"? You OBVIOUSLY have no plans to stay here a day longer than you have to if you don't care whether the company survives or not. Yes, Skywest makes a big profit on ASA, but they are a "business" with their primary fiduciary responsibilities to their stockholders. Simple business protacol DICTATES that if you have two different divisions that do the same thing and one is disproportionately more expensive than the other, you either "fix it" or get rid of it in favor of the other. Of course you have to consider changeover costs, but in about a year or less, the A/C manufacturers are gonna "chip in and help" on those costs with their "retire and award" program.

The sad part is that if a retro check of the size you're going to get is going to make such a huge difference that you're willing to destroy your fellow "ASA career pilots" jobs, then chances are you won't have a thing to show for that money in two years from now.

ASA DOESN'T DESERVE TO GO AWAY,..........ASA MANAGEMENT deserves to go away. Since we have no power over that and have no power over the NMB, we've got to change our course and take a more realistic path