NMB to ASA: keep negotiating

[www.]

So does that mean you will get back involved?
Does that mean we made mistakes in these negotiations?

You never know.

You can always do things better or different when you have time to reflect on your actions of the past. Learn from the and move on.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I guess that's fine; people have the choice to stay or leave. But if you are not doing anything on the line to help this process, then you can't biatch about the current state of affairs.

I am more interested in protecting my job..... When ALPA comes up with a strategy to combat the portfolio whipsaw let me know... until then expect more of the same....

I can "biatch", because I said this was going to happen while all you ALPA cheerleaders said we need to trust ALPA....

What's the next move? Jerry has a Plan A, B, and probably a C..... ALPA only has Plan A, and it is failing miserably.....

 

[Jmoney]

Joe Merchant.....

Really, dude.....

Do you ever feel like that clown in the dunking booth?
Holy God!

How do you get through life like this?

Seriously! Call some sort of hotline and get some professional help-You are starting to scare us all......

I mean honest to sweet Jesus! Go outside, get some fresh air-you can't respond to all the posters that you claim you don't care about all day every day.

I am serious-I think an intervention of some sort is needed.

-Really!
-If you don't care what we think...
-Why bother with all this mess?
-You have to be aware that we are not changing your mind and you are not changing ours......You and LJ lost fair and square-get over it.

Go throw a frisbee to a dog or something-get on Dr Phil....Get into a 12-step program....You really cannot go through life making a post to every single individual who disagrees with you!
GET HELP!

 

[JoeMerchant]

You can always do things better or different when you have time to reflect on your actions of the past. Learn from the and move on.

Your absolutely correct, but I don't see anything different now than when this started.... in fact Bob is still advising Newie....

If I see some changes in leadership, then maybe I will believe that we have learned from our mistakes.... DU gets it, why doesn't the rest?

 

[FmrFreightDog]

He is a paid consultant for the ASA MEC and he still has an ALPA phone.... This whole contract negotiations is a personal vendetta for him.... PATCO II - the Sequel....

Now that I agree with 100%. A truer statement has never crossed your lips, Joe. As much as I support the MEC, I find BA's current "arrangement" totally unacceptable.

 

[www.]

Your absolutely correct, but I don't see anything different now than when this started.... in fact Bob is still advising Newie....

If I see some changes in leadership, then maybe I will believe that we have learned from our mistakes.... DU gets it, why doesn't the rest?

Why don't you bring it up at the LEC Meeting Thursday.

 

[GeekMaster]

I can tell your having problems with this so I will point you in the direction of the ALPA attorney.

Good Luck.

OK since it was Me to which you referred, exactly "what" problem. I understand it pretty clearly and I don't have a problem with LOA 29 at all. If the "definition" section containing the duty in times was an ironclad win for ALPA, then they'd have pushed the fight for a bigger gain. I'm not criticizing the settlement at all. "At least we got something" and "this was the easiest way to settle it" came right out of Bob Arnold's mouth. I personally heard him say it....not heresay.....direct from his mouth with many present.

Again, stay focused on the real issue. Actions by the line pilots NO LONGER HAVE THE ABILITY TO CRIPPLE THE OPERATION!!! Believe me I wish they did. Then at least the line pilots would have a voice in this thing. I DO TALK TO MY REPS and so do many others. They tell us all the same thing....."be patient, we're gonna get released." It's like a carnival midway game; you keep throwing your money on the table while the carnie tells you that you're so close to winning. You don't realize the game is stacked until you're out of money.

As for growing a set? Assume for a moment that every single pilot on line "grew a set" tomorrow and the radio was totally silent. Then you'd likely see quite a spike in delays due to lack of communication for need of service. The new Delta ground operations would complain to the ASA VP of flight ops. He'd say, "I'll take care of it". A day or two later, we'd get a flight ops bulletin saying, "beginning immediately, all captains will now be responsible for notifying ops via radio if all services necassary for departure haven't been performed by boarding time. If said services still haven't been performed by 20 minutes prior to departure, the captain shall re-notify ops." Guess what, you'd have to do it and he wouldn't owe you jack in extra pay AND he you'd be subject to disciplinary actions if you refused to make that radio call and caused your flight a delay.

I'M NOT AGAINST FLYING THE CONTRACT. I'm simply pointing out in very real terms why it won't work. As www. said, "Life is like driving a car. As you go down the road of life when you look at the rearview mirror you see everything behind you. You can't turn around, but when you look out the windshield you see everything coming up in front of you. You can change direction moving forward."

Since "growing a set" isn't gonna work "for whatever" reason, it might be time to change direction.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Now that I agree with 100%. A truer statement has never crossed your lips, Joe. As much as I support the MEC, I find BA's current "arrangement" totally unacceptable.

How can you support the MEC if this "arrangement" is still in place? If you support the MEC, then you are supporting their decisions including this "arrangement"! We wouldn't be in this pickle if it weren't for BA... and the fact that he is still being used as a consultant should worry everyone....

Have you voiced your concern to the MEC? What answer were you given and was it satifactory?

You see, we agree on more than you think.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Why don't you bring it up at the LEC Meeting Thursday.

Nobody is going to listen to me www. Why doesn't someone else bring it up..... someone who won't have the message tainted by the impression people have of me...

It will have more impact if it comes from someone else..... you and I both know that.....

 

[www.]

OK since it was Me to which you referred, exactly "what" problem. I understand it pretty clearly and I don't have a problem with LOA 29 at all. If the "definition" section containing the duty in times was an ironclad win for ALPA, then they'd have pushed the fight for a bigger gain. I'm not criticizing the settlement at all. "At least we got something" and "this was the easiest way to settle it" came right out of Bob Arnold's mouth. I personally heard him say it....not heresay.....direct from his mouth with many present.

One had and has nothing to do with the other. The strength of the language in the contract was not the issue to do a deal. The "art of the deal" was.

 

[GeekMaster]

One had and has nothing to do with the other. The strength of the language in the contract was not the issue to do a deal. The "art of the deal" was.

Fair enough, but how does this change the big picture; Company needed us here earlier to make their operation work better. Rather than engage in a big battle, with the "art of the deal" they got it. ALPA got the LOA done and negotiations got put off for the summer.

The big picture remains; pilots can no longer melt down the operation by "flying the contract". Do you agree with that www.?

 

[Jmoney]

Merchant...

Why, praytell, would anyone have a negative impression of you?

It's just everyone else who's nuts, John, everyone else........

Just Say NO!

 

[JoeMerchant]

Why, praytell, would anyone have a negative impression of you?

It's just everyone else who's nuts, John, everyone else........

Just Say NO!

At least I'm not cowering in anonymity like you.... care to introduce yourself? Didn't think so... carry on chicken$h!t......

 

[www.]

Fair enough, but how does this change the big picture; Company needed us here earlier to make their operation work better. Rather than engage in a big battle, with the "art of the deal" they got it. ALPA got the LOA done and negotiations got put off for the summer.

The big picture remains; pilots can no longer melt down the operation by "flying the contract". Do you agree with that www.?

Melt down. Your correct. Create problems, yes.

 

[SBD-2U3]

...and the beat goes on

 

[GeekMaster]

Melt down. Your correct. Create problems, yes.

Alrighty then....what exactly....kind of problems that can't be fixed with the stroke of a pen from Tutt. Don't say "stop picking up open time". I've had that very conversation with Bob Arnold several times. That wasn't happening when they were paying straight time. Since they started offering time and half...I even saw your name bump me out of a trip one day. I'm not criticizing at all. It's hard NOT to pick up a good day line at those payrates.

As far as not going the extra mile in the airplane. Again...not gonna happen.....because pilots aren't doing it to help out the company. They do it to help out number one; be it getting to the hotel for a cold beer or making it back to catch that flight home.

So really, anything short of a meltdown is pissing on a housefire; and as you just acknowledged....a meltdown is not gonna happen.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Alrighty then....what exactly....kind of problems that can't be fixed with the stroke of a pen from Tutt. Don't say "stop picking up open time". I've had that very conversation with Bob Arnold several times. That wasn't happening when they were paying straight time. Since they started offering time and half...I even saw your name bump me out of a trip one day. I'm not criticizing at all. It's hard NOT to pick up a good day line at those payrates.

As far as not going the extra mile in the airplane. Again...not gonna happen.....because pilots aren't doing it to help out the company. They do it to help out number one; be it getting to the hotel for a cold beer or making it back to catch that flight home.

So really, anything short of a meltdown is pissing on a housefire; and as you just acknowledged....a meltdown is not gonna happen.

Exactly..... I'm enjoying the $120/hour to fly an ATR....... about the same as a USAirways A320 Capt. rate....

 

[14RF SUX]

That'll put a lot of gas in the trawler. But it ain't helping the cause.

You know who.

 

[Tomct]

It's the same old clowns playing the same games. What's up tomct haven't see you for a while... Nothing has ever changed and no one will get the message until we get rid of all the company men flying the line and making it happen for the company.

How goes it Red...good to see that you are alive and well!!

 

[FmrFreightDog]

How can you support the MEC if this "arrangement" is still in place? If you support the MEC, then you are supporting their decisions including this "arrangement"! We wouldn't be in this pickle if it weren't for BA... and the fact that he is still being used as a consultant should worry everyone....

Have you voiced your concern to the MEC? What answer were you given and was it satifactory?

You see, we agree on more than you think.....

Yes, I have voiced my concerns to the MEC. Yes, the answer I got was satisfactory. BA does not carry nearly the weight you imagine he does these days. He is no longer in a position to dictate policy. My main problem with the current arrangement is a financial one. I feel that MEC money can be spent in better ways.

If you think BA is still driving policy in the ALPA office, you are very much mistaken.

Having said that, I feel that if BA were given free reign he would be happy to drive ASA to a strike purely for personal reasons. Thankfully, he no longer has the power to do so. BA is not the "man behind the curtain" that you imagine he is.

 

[VeeOne]

Yes, I have voiced my concerns to the MEC. Yes, the answer I got was satisfactory. BA does not carry nearly the weight you imagine he does these days. He is no longer in a position to dictate policy. My main problem with the current arrangement is a financial one. I feel that MEC money can be spent in better ways.

If you think BA is still driving policy in the ALPA office, you are very much mistaken.

Having said that, I feel that if BA were given free reign he would be happy to drive ASA to a strike purely for personal reasons. Thankfully, he no longer has the power to do so. BA is not the "man behind the curtain" that you imagine he is.

Fmr- glad to hear someone brought it up. I have been very weary of BA's impact and pull on things. It was a relief to see him move on. I'm more into the business aspect of things, and not the personal vendettas. BA was clearly out to push things to the edge and beyond.

 

[ASADriver]

Why are we still paying Bob? More wasted money! I'm glad I'm helping to pay for his retirement. Nobody seems to care for him, but our ALPA dues are going to him.

 

[GeekMaster]

This whole ordeal is like a Talledega Nights Ricky Bobby "If you ain't first your last" mentality. Even the hardnose ALPAITES know we should probably ease off our expectations a little but don't want to be peceived as losing.

 

[ASADriver]

This whole ordeal is like a Talledega Nights Ricky Bobby "If you ain't first your last" mentality. Even the hardnose ALPAITES know we should probably ease off our expectations a little but don't want to be peceived as losing.

Well then let's throw the bums out and put someone in who will get real!

 

[601Pilot]

Again, stay focused on the real issue. Actions by the line pilots NO LONGER HAVE THE ABILITY TO CRIPPLE THE OPERATION!!! Believe me I wish they did. Then at least the line pilots would have a voice in this thing. I DO TALK TO MY REPS and so do many others. They tell us all the same thing....."be patient, we're gonna get released." It's like a carnival midway game; you keep throwing your money on the table while the carnie tells you that you're so close to winning. You don't realize the game is stacked until you're out of money.

As for growing a set? Assume for a moment that every single pilot on line "grew a set" tomorrow and the radio was totally silent. Then you'd likely see quite a spike in delays due to lack of communication for need of service. The new Delta ground operations would complain to the ASA VP of flight ops. He'd say, "I'll take care of it". A day or two later, we'd get a flight ops bulletin saying, "beginning immediately, all captains will now be responsible for notifying ops via radio if all services necassary for departure haven't been performed by boarding time. If said services still haven't been performed by 20 minutes prior to departure, the captain shall re-notify ops." Guess what, you'd have to do it and he wouldn't owe you jack in extra pay AND he you'd be subject to disciplinary actions if you refused to make that radio call and caused your flight a delay.

I'M NOT AGAINST FLYING THE CONTRACT. I'm simply pointing out in very real terms why it won't work. As www. said, "Life is like driving a car. As you go down the road of life when you look at the rearview mirror you see everything behind you. You can't turn around, but when you look out the windshield you see everything coming up in front of you. You can change direction moving forward."

Since "growing a set" isn't gonna work "for whatever" reason, it might be time to change direction.

How about we try out your theory and see if it plays out that way? If you are right and I'm wrong, I will gladly say so.

 

[GeekMaster]

How about we try out your theory and see if it plays out that way? If you are right and I'm wrong, I will gladly say so.

I'm guessing when you say "try out my theory", your referring to the portion of the post about "if everyone grew a set and the radio was silent tomorrow". If so, here comes the bad news. I/WE have been attempting to do that for over 4 years now. Go back and read my other posts as to why it hasn't worked and will never work. I'll summarize.

1. Pilots aren't helping the operation as a favor to the company. They're doing it to help themselves; be it getting to the hotel or getting back in time to make that flight home.

2. If for some reason they miraculously did have a good "silent" day, Tutt would enact a new rule and then we'd be required to call for our services. That's new sir, that's the way it used to be and a stroke of the pen can make it return with NO additional compensation to you.

3. At the current prices the company is paying for open time pick up, pilots are NOT going to stop picking it up. As I said on a previous post, I've been bumped out of day lines by rather prominent figures in the ALPA community.

4. If for some reason we miraculously found a way to hurt the operation through some method not correctable through Section 1G of the CBA, a judge would slap out a status quo and a possible fine to fix'er right up.

I wish it would work, but over 4 years has WELL proved it won't.

If on the other hand you're referring to the part at the bottom of my post about "changing direction", the first step is to find a way to inform our reps....enmasse.....thereby proving to them we are no longer a minority....that we want a change in direction.

We can't just "start" with decert. or recall. We first need to "justify" that what we want represents a majority.

 

[GeekMaster]

reason number 2 should read:

That's NOT new sir, that's the way.......

 

[regionalcap]

Exactly..... I'm enjoying the $120/hour to fly an ATR....... about the same as a USAirways A320 Capt. rate....

Hmmm...just looking in the contract and top pay is about $83 for the ATR. Just curious how you get $120 an hour.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Hmmm...just looking in the contract and top pay is about $83 for the ATR. Just curious how you get $120 an hour.

It was in reference to picking up open time which is currently being paid at 150%.......

 

[JoeMerchant]

That'll put a lot of gas in the trawler. But it ain't helping the cause.

You know who.

Yeah I know who.... What exactly is the "cause"?

The trawler takes a lot of gas.... The dayline I picked up this week just about fills it up....