NJA Contract Rumor

[imacdog]

I'm sure G4dude is ready to give back everything. Everyone else? Probably not.

 

[Jack Mehoff]

Jack,
Do you really think attacking someone professing your side helps? Sure there are those not on board but you make things worse by dumping on someone like Blueridge. All I can say is "Shut up".
Helm

I'm not attacking anyone, I'm simply stating the facts. Facts published to us in the Compass. You might want to put down your kool aid and have a reality check buddy. You feel like one united group being put in a black out, and sold out? I know sales is key to get us back.However the behavior of the active "professional pilot group" has just been kicking us while we are down.

I'm sorry the truth is unpleasant. You go keep kneeling down and bending over for any current NJA pilot if it makes you feel better.

 

[rajflyboy]

Profits have been excellent this year even with the bad economy

Just say no to givebacks

but we need sales too so we can get everyone back to work soon

 

[acaTerry]

Really? Then why was there a 37% increase in Volunteer extended day flying in 2012? Why has the Union Leader not said 1 word to the furloughed in 2.5 years? Why has the FWG been idle the entire time, and why has the Union continually said working extra days (18day, and extended days) does not affect recalls?

You want you fuloughees back, Sure have a funny way of showing it guys.

The 18 day guys going to 7/7 will not help. All that will do is make things cheaper for the company and allow them to probably even furlough more because there will be no more mismatching of crew schedules. Notice that with all the people leaving, taking LOA and such and we still hear that we are overstaffed. But the workload has not gone down (at least not in my fleet).
The extended days are almost entirely GLC, and that has no impact on the fleets going from TEB-PBI-PDK-TEB, which are the fleets that have almost all the furloughees.
The fact is that our new improved EMT is hooked on saving $$ to the point that they no longer are concerned with growth. And that my friend, is what we need more than anything.

 

[imacdog]

The extended days are almost entirely GLC, and that has no impact on the fleets going from TEB-PBI-PDK-TEB, which are the fleets that have almost all the furloughees.

Considering we are all on the same seniority list now, I urge you to reconsider your logic.

 

[acaTerry]

Considering we are all on the same seniority list now, I urge you to reconsider your logic.

I get what you're saying, but the seniority list and mission requirements are different things and don't drive eachother in terms of furloughs. It's like saying you don't eat root crop vegetables because turnips taste bad. Carrots, beets, radishes....all root crops. Turnips, yuck, so I won't eat carrots.
They're not going to start having calling people in the XL back because a guy in the GLC wouldn't extend a day to do London to TEB on his would-be go home day.
There are simply two things involved:
1) Demand / needs. Do they see a need based on current requirements in fleets? This is where the missions of GLC and smaller fleets do not inter-relate.
2) Callback in senior order.
Even if things in GLC see a need for more, they just pull from our "overstaffed" small fleet pilots. You will see that they will have no trouble losing people to those Globals. They'll just move people around. Until they see need companywide, they simply will not call people back, no matter how much I or you or anyone else wants them to.
All we can do until they figure out the need for growth is call sick when sick and tired when tired. If we have guys flying when they shouldn't, it will never come back. It's like football: sooner or later (hopefully sooner), they'll run out of people who will carry the football when they need a rest and have to call back in the second string.

 

[ultrarunner]

The 18 day guys going to 7/7 will not help. All that will do is make things cheaper for the company and allow them to probably even furlough more because there will be no more mismatching of crew schedules.....

Most pilot groups have their NC's negotiate clauses in the CBA in order to mitigate furloughs if and when the time comes. For example the minimum guarantee being reduced with pilots on furlough. Things like that.

In the case of a Frac, you'd negotiate things like the company NOT offering extended days (they'd have to specifically requested by the pilot), and scheduling issues and/or anything thing else that would keep furloughs to the absolute bare minimum.

Unfortunately, when things are good, and everyone is walking around high-fiving each other, things like that can get overlooked when negotiating a CBA....

They likely won't in NJA's next CBA....

 

[imacdog]

They're not going to start having calling people in the XL back because a guy in the GLC wouldn't extend a day to do London to TEB on his would-be go home day.

There are no "people in the XL" on furlough. Only NJA seniority list pilots.

 

[imacdog]

In the case of a Frac, you'd negotiate things like the company NOT offering extended days (they'd have to specifically requested by the pilot), and scheduling issues and/or anything thing else that would keep furloughs to the absolute bare minimum.

Unfortunately, when things are good, and everyone is walking around high-fiving each other, things like that can get overlooked when negotiating a CBA....

They likely won't in NJA's next CBA....

In our case it's the maximum number of days that selloffs can occur without penalty (recalls) to the company. Problem is, these are very difficult for the union to track and verify.

 

[ultrarunner]

..... Problem is, these are very difficult for the union to track and verify.

Yep, especially in the in which the company (sometimes) takes care of those trips. Impossible to track....

 

[acaTerry]

No kidding guys. One could easier get the launch codes than get those numbers on selloffs.
Back to the guys on the 18 day schedule. I still don't see how that would affect the recalls. Look back a few years. Lots of us, myself included, took part in the voluntary measures and what did it accomplish? I gave up thousands of dollars and the company STILL pulled the rug from you guys.

 

[billybob]

RTS was good to his word, it's the EMT that pulled that rug and I will always remember that. To this day I think RTS was the a guy you could trust, you might not like him but his word was worth something.

As for the 18 day thing I just don't know. I need to know more but you could find out and see what it does

Extended days for guys in the states is never ok!

 

[X-rated]

Considering we are all on the same seniority list now, I urge you to reconsider your logic.

I'd be interested in your logic.

It seems to me you could overstaff by any number of pilots in the long range fleets, and you'd still need to extend guys from time to time. If a plane is halfway around the world, how does it make sense to airline pilots around to save a few days of overtime? What's the chance of the plane actually being where you hope it will be when you board your 20 hour flight to Mumbai? You guys do still fly business class internationally don't you? Let's see. We can spend 20K on airline tickets so we don't have to pay one day's overtime. We know we have virtually no chance of the relief pilot meeting the plane and being rested when we need him, but hell, we have pilots on furlough. Face it. International flying requires more flexibility. Unless you're actually trying to put your company out of business, you need to accept some extended days in the long range fleets and realize they have absolutely no bearing on staffing levels or recalls.

 

[BentOver]

Some yes..... Close to 1600, no

 

[imacdog]

...and increasing from last year too.

 

[X-rated]

Unpopular truth

Some yes..... Close to 1600, no

I'll take your word for it since I have no idea how many planes you have in the GLC fleet or how many days they spend out of the country. Assuming 75 planes would equal 21 days of OT for each GLC airplane. That might be a tad high fleet wide, but it honestly doesn't sound unreasonable for an international Gulfstream.

However, even if all 1600 days were domestic, 1600 days divided by 180 is less than 9 pilots. Hard to think they would change fleet staffing levels for that. 9 additional pilots would not perceptibly change staffing levels and would offer virtually no additional flexibility. Or, are you suggesting they recall 400 pilots to give the company the flexibility they need domestically and still not address the international need for extending pilots? Do you want there to be a company for you to return to someday?

I understand your situation being furloughed, but honestly, your reaction to overtime is far more emotional than rational. The numbers just don't support a recall, and wont until they start selling more airframes.

I know you will think I'm the anti-Christ for suggesting such a thing, but I only say it for your own good. I'm not trying to piss you off, but only trying to point out you're making yourself crazy over a relatively inconsequential issue. Take it for what it's worth, or not...

 

[OPECJet]

I'd be interested in your logic.

It seems to me you could overstaff by any number of pilots in the long range fleets, and you'd still need to extend guys from time to time. If a plane is halfway around the world, how does it make sense to airline pilots around to save a few days of overtime? What's the chance of the plane actually being where you hope it will be when you board your 20 hour flight to Mumbai? You guys do still fly business class internationally don't you? Let's see. We can spend 20K on airline tickets so we don't have to pay one day's overtime. We know we have virtually no chance of the relief pilot meeting the plane and being rested when we need him, but hell, we have pilots on furlough. Face it. International flying requires more flexibility. Unless you're actually trying to put your company out of business, you need to accept some extended days in the long range fleets and realize they have absolutely no bearing on staffing levels or recalls.

I agree with your thoughts on the logistics of staffing the long haul flying. My only complaint is that (my understanding anyway), the union offered the company relief on this topic, to which the company refused. The company would rather staff the aircraft through voluntary extended days than with negotiating something with the pilot group.

As such my beef is much less with a GLC pilot taking an extended day to fly back from Europe a day late than it is with the company who chooses to staff those flights via extended days, rather than negotiating something. On the same token, the company's preference is contractually legal, just crappy.

 

[BentOver]

Also disheartening is that while a majority of extended days were from the GLC fleet... There was no shortage of extended day takers from the other fleets as well.....


How much difference would it make on staffing..Who knows.. But it says something about the type of people they have in the pilot group..... I no longer have a dog in this fight, but will probably remain interested in what goes on at NJA for a little bit.. Just human nature....

 

[acaTerry]

Something else to think about is that you guys are very convenient to have as hostages as Section 6 comes up.

 

[imacdog]

I'd say the bottom active 200 or so on the list are the hostages.