NJA Contract Rumor

[Willy21]

Honest question, how long are you going to wait on NetJets? While this might be better than some places, it is a dead end job. You will be a career f/o on a super mid if you are lucky and that possibility is years from now. Being in the bottom 50, I am ready and waiting to become a hostage. This ship has sailed and if you were hired after 07/05 you are watching from the dock.

 

[imacdog]

Until something better comes along I'm keeping my recall option open. You wouldn't? Perhaps you don't know since you weren't furloughed during one of the roughest pilot markets in history but there haven't been that many opportunities available that would be worth giving up a recall number.

 

[Willy21]

You are right, I don't have a clue about the crap you and the others have been put through. I can say that I want you all to have all the rights given to you under the contract. I would never recommend giving up your recall rights. With that being said, when that day comes you will quickly find out that it is not the same company.

Case in point, we have sic's hired in the summer of '05 that can't hold a GLC sic bid due to pic's downgrading themselves. That is their right that seniority has granted them, but in the end they are voluntarily downgrading to get a type rating, get better QOL, or fly an international airplane. Again that is their right under the contract. They are looking out for their own interests.

This is becoming the culture of this pilot group. Day by day people are starting to say what about me? They want what they think is theirs to take and they don't want to be the team player anymore. This is probably why the number of voluntary extended days is going up in the domestic fleets.

Please understand, I am only trying to paint the picture of what you will see when you come back. This is why I ask, how long will you wait to get back to NetJets? If it were me, and there were not any other options on the table, I would come back. Get another type and time in type. Then I would bail.

I hope something better comes along for all of us soon.

 

[BentOver]

You are right, I don't have a clue about the crap you and the others have been put through. I can say that I want you all to have all the rights given to you under the contract. I would never recommend giving up your recall rights. With that being said, when that day comes you will quickly find out that it is not the same company.

Case in point, we have sic's hired in the summer of '05 that can't hold a GLC sic bid due to pic's downgrading themselves. That is their right that seniority has granted them, but in the end they are voluntarily downgrading to get a type rating, get better QOL, or fly an international airplane. Again that is their right under the contract. They are looking out for their own interests.

This is becoming the culture of this pilot group. Day by day people are starting to say what about me? They want what they think is theirs to take and they don't want to be the team player anymore. This is probably why the number of voluntary extended days is going up in the domestic fleets.

Please understand, I am only trying to paint the picture of what you will see when you come back. This is why I ask, how long will you wait to get back to NetJets? If it were me, and there were not any other options on the table, I would come back. Get another type and time in type. Then I would bail.

I hope something better comes along for all of us soon.

Can't argue with this... The last 2+ years of "solidarity" have been an utter dissapointment at NJASAP... That and a stalled career progression at NJA made giving up the ## a bit easier...... Now throw in the current EBoard state of confusion, and I see a recipe for disaster come next contract (which will most likely start ramping up next year)... I wanted to go back solely for the homebasing, but the thought of spending the next 10 years (after recall,) as a Phenom 300 SIC and making maybe $95K on the 18 day just didn't add up anymore.....

Thats if the company doesn't do the old end around and demolish recall rights etc... Which seeing how it seems like an "all for myself" Union group, may happen.. I give it 40/60 that nothing changes...

 

[imacdog]

Yeah I hear from numerous active pilots on how NJA sucks now and it would be best to move on. Yet attrition remains at 1%...

 

[Willy21]

Give it another 18-24 months and that rate will go up. It will mostly be people with a seniority number >2000. That will trigger recalls, but there will be no upgrades or 40000lbs+ aircraft bids.

 

[gunfyter]

Yeah I hear from numerous active pilots on how NJA sucks now and it would be best to move on. Yet attrition remains at 1%...

I think anyone who was planning on leaving within 5 years would have taken the Early-Out ... when it was available.

 

[cldsfr79]

You don't order planes unless you need them. I'd call the bluff.

Not only do I call his bluff I DARE Hansell to cancel the orders!

DO IT! Buffet loves CEO's who who can't perform and shrink a company. It would be the end of his stay at NJ.

Here will be the headlines:

1. "Hansell, Unable to turn around NetJets is faced with a shrinking company"
2. "NJ cancels billions of dollars in orders, are the solvent?"
3. "NJ unable to sell planes, is this the end of fractional ownership"
4. "EJM continues to grow at a record pace while NJ pilots are left on the steet."

PLUS: Why should I take a pay cut to fly a shiny new plane? Flying a new plane is not payment. I can't send a picture of the plane to the mortgage company and say "hey, can you please charge me less because I traded my money to fly this cool plane".

 

[acaTerry]

Not only do I call his bluff I DARE Hansell to cancel the orders!

DO IT! Buffet loves CEO's who who can't perform and shrink a company. It would be the end of his stay at NJ.

Here will be the headlines:

1. "Hansell, Unable to turn around NetJets is faced with a shrinking company"
2. "NJ cancels billions of dollars in orders, are the solvent?"
3. "NJ unable to sell planes, is this the end of fractional ownership"
4. "EJM continues to grow at a record pace while NJ pilots are left on the steet."

PLUS: Why should I take a pay cut to fly a shiny new plane? Flying a new plane is not payment. I can't send a picture of the plane to the mortgage company and say "hey, can you please charge me less because I traded my money to fly this cool plane".

Not what I'm thinking. Our EMT is so good at spin they'll come out looking good. More like:
"NJA changes strategy"
"NJA cancels orders, poised for new horizon"
"NJA delays deliveries in strategic move"

And sprinkled within will be how it is a cost effective move, thus smart and that it is all the pilots fault.

 

[G4dude]

I'm sure G4dude is ready to give back everything. Everyone else? Probably not.

Not everything, actually I am hoping we delay negotiations until the economy gets better, so we don't have to give anything back. Worldwide, the economic outlook is rather bleak.

 

[G4dude]

Yeah I hear from numerous active pilots on how NJA sucks now and it would be best to move on. Yet attrition remains at 1%...

It is a very good job, just not a perfect one.

 

[G4dude]

Can't argue with this... The last 2+ years of "solidarity" have been an utter dissapointment at NJASAP... That and a stalled career progression at NJA made giving up the ## a bit easier...... Now throw in the current EBoard state of confusion, and I see a recipe for disaster come next contract (which will most likely start ramping up next year)... I wanted to go back solely for the homebasing, but the thought of spending the next 10 years (after recall,) as a Phenom 300 SIC and making maybe $95K on the 18 day just didn't add up anymore.....

Thats if the company doesn't do the old end around and demolish recall rights etc... Which seeing how it seems like an "all for myself" Union group, may happen.. I give it 40/60 that nothing changes...

Come on back, Bentover. It is still a really good gig. The lack of growth, in my opinion, is not due to nefarious plotting by CMH or idiotic management or incompetent sales, but is reflective of this sorry economy. When the economy improves, growth will return in spades. Dude has spoken.

 

[RideandDrive]

Really good job? I'd have to disagree and I got tired of it and left. I'm back at the airlines and I don't miss ole netjets one bit.

Ask some 7 year f/o how great it is.

 

[BentOver]

Come on back, Bentover. It is still a really good gig. The lack of growth, in my opinion, is not due to nefarious plotting by CMH or idiotic management or incompetent sales, but is reflective of this sorry economy. When the economy improves, growth will return in spades. Dude has spoken.

Widebody at a Legacy pretty much trumps SIC (for long term) in a Phenom 300 with unmovable/untradable schedules. Upgrades in 2007 were still at a trickle and that was with RTS at the helm..... When FO pay at a Legacy will be as much as PIC pay on the 7/7 at NJA the decision already gets made IMO. Add to that the extended days at a ridiculuous amount and I would be nothing but ticked off everytime I went on a trip. Especially when/if I found out the guy next to me extended, said disparaging remarks about the furloughees (few names come to mind), or just was a complete social retard. I can see many saying stuff like "paying your dues, or still bringing up '05 contract, or how rough they had it during the recession" etc.... The temptation to leave his/her overnight bag on a ramp in some remote location would just be too great:laugh:


Got my resignation comfirmation in the mail yesterday. When I get started with the new job I'll hopefully never think about NJA again.. Right now I'm still in that early divorce stage.. :beer:...

 

[acaTerry]

Not everything, actually I am hoping we delay negotiations until the economy gets better, so we don't have to give anything back. Worldwide, the economic outlook is rather bleak.

Hansell had the opportunity to do just that by extending the contract. He said no. He's coming after your livelihood. Grab a hold and hang on because here it comes.

 

[OPECJet]

Come on back, Bentover. It is still a really good gig. The lack of growth, in my opinion, is not due to nefarious plotting by CMH or idiotic management or incompetent sales, but is reflective of this sorry economy. When the economy improves, growth will return in spades. Dude has spoken.

Partially correct. Sales aren't cutting the mustard. It could be the down economy, could be lackluster effort, could be we don't have much to offer these day, or it could be we're 30% more expensive than the competition and catering to a crowd that just doesn't exist in the numbers it used to. Any way you cut it, there is still a giant weapons grade labor attorney at the helm with no business background. The son of a b LITERALLY couldn't have gotten a job running a Dollar General store before getting thrust into his current gig.

When / if the economy returns, NJA will still be screwed because the man at the top is not a leader. He's not a visionary. He's not a manager. He's not a business man. He's a labor attorney.

Hansell had the opportunity to do just that by extending the contract. He said no. He's coming after your livelihood. Grab a hold and hang on because here it comes.

This. It's going to be a rough ride.

G, as far as coming back? Yeah, I plan on coming back. Long enough to let them shell out 5 figures for a new type rating and get current again for trying to go back to the 121 world where there are upgrade opportunities and better money.

 

[gret]

This has to be one of the most boring threads that ever existed. I'm sure there has been worst...but not sure when...

Any thoughts on the following observations-

People from Iowa are great, but never let a doctor, dentist, or lawyer run a business. Smart people within their professions, but dumber than stumps when it comes to what customers want and managing people...HR failure by NetJets with the current CEO?

WB wishes he never bought NetJets. His admission...not an opinion. He bragged about taking 30 minutes doing his due diligence when it bought NetJets and it shows.

Fractional ownership only works in an economic bubble. Not in a rational world...it is too expensive and a very tired business model. Something else will take its place.

Last Berkshire 10-Q says they made money by cancelling aircraft contracts? How does that compute?

Concessions don't work...they are too late to save the business and the workforce so fold your tent and look for a new employer.


Most people in private aviation can't manage a lemonade stand.

Very unlikely that the NJ a/c orders will be delivered. Nice press, but history shows that it is all fluff.

What is the average age of Netjet's fleet. Two years ago it was about 8 years...so duh...if no new significant additions, it must be 10 years now. How can the sales people do their jobs if they are selling 10 year old aircraft?

A lot of union conversation is like working the unit while sitting in a chair. A flurry of activity ...but no conclusion.

Hope Solo is a great goalie, but not good wife material.

Tim will replace Mark as quarterback of the Jets.

Gulfstream needs the G650...really bad and it is the only new a/c that has any value.

The 7X has been a dud.

​

 

[Blueridgeflyer]

This has to be one of the most boring threads that ever existed. I'm sure there has been worst...but not sure when...

Any thoughts on the following observations-

People from Iowa are great, but never let a doctor, dentist, or lawyer run a business. Smart people within their professions, but dumber than stumps when it comes to what customers want and managing people...HR failure by NetJets with the current CEO?

WB wishes he never bought NetJets. His admission...not an opinion. He bragged about taking 30 minutes doing his due diligence when it bought NetJets and it shows.

Fractional ownership only works in an economic bubble. Not in a rational world...it is too expensive and a very tired business model. Something else will take its place.

Last Berkshire 10-Q says they made money by cancelling aircraft contracts? How does that compute?

Concessions don't work...they are too late to save the business and the workforce so fold your tent and look for a new employer.


Most people in private aviation can't manage a lemonade stand.

Very unlikely that the NJ a/c orders will be delivered. Nice press, but history shows that it is all fluff.

What is the average age of Netjet's fleet. Two years ago it was about 8 years...so duh...if no new significant additions, it must be 10 years now. How can the sales people do their jobs if they are selling 10 year old aircraft?

A lot of union conversation is like working the unit while sitting in a chair. A flurry of activity ...but no conclusion.

Hope Solo is a great goalie, but not good wife material.

Tim will replace Mark as quarterback of the Jets.

Gulfstream needs the G650...really bad and it is the only new a/c that has any value.

The 7X has been a dud.

​

Gret your posts are thought provoking as usual and I enjoy reading them.


JH and the new EMT are steadfastly executing the plan set forth by DS and the wishes of BRK board in particular. He has been a capable leader in the respect of executing the agenda laid out by his predecessor. While I might not like several of the initiatives set forth in the business plan I also recognize that some have preserved the organization and served to inoculate it from a lethargic and volatile economy. One of the positive narratives floating around Columbus these days is the insistence on refocusing on value versus cost to the ownership group. Certainly the Signature fleet will be a large part of this moving forward and I wish that the commitment to refresh had been made sooner. But they are rolling out other product enhancements to further differentiate themselves from other premium products in addition to industry leading recovery. Time will tell what percentage of deliveries occur in reality. It's been said that fractional sales of the new and undelivered fleets have been solid. Card sales not so much.

I think there will always be a market for traditional Fractional even in a stagnant to modestly growing economy. There is no question that NJA had an artificially high number of traditional owners during the bubble. Sure there will be other products for different price points within the market segment and this is healthy for private aviation in general. I think it will be some years before NJA reaches previous levels of ownership but it will likely happen in this decade IMO.

For those on the seniority list that wish to bargain for higher compensation I do think there is reason for some cautious optimism. It's important that we look at the position through the lens of both service and trade. There are many hats in addition to delivering owners safely that an NJA pilot job description entails. I think this needs to be underscored in addition to inflationary pressures in the next contract. It's just a matter of winning over the hearts and minds of a pretty beaten down group at the moment. The task is not insurmountable though. Lastly NJA is nearing the bottom of the project fleet number before deliveries take hold. I am hopeful that sales will follow an upward trajectory over the course of the next few years so that many of the furloughed brethren will have an opportunity to exercise their recall rights. Best of luck to us all.

 

[gret]

Let's hope things get better for everyone soon.

Problem is we don't have visionaries leading us out of this abyss. Managing a business is easy when times are good, real talent comes to the surface when times are bad and no one...in any of the leading aviation companies...has rung the bell in the last four years.

How come the Buffets of the world have not been very visible since 2008....they were always there smiling, having their pictures in AIN, and enlightening everyone with their immense wisdom about aviation when times were good?

...and BTW, the state of the industry today has little to do with unions...it is an executive leadership problem. On the other hand, the unions looked good too when times are great...how are they when things aren't so good? On the concession issue, one should go talk to the Caterpillar workers in Joliet, IL and get a boogie check.

 

[OPECJet]

Blue, what flavor are they serving at Bridgeway these days? Somehow up through mid '07 NJA was insulated from the old adage, "money talks and BS walks". That reality is slapping them in the face right now, but they are preoccupied with spinning into something positive.

Bottom line, until NJA can price share ownership competitively with charter, we ain't growing. NJAOwner has beat the issue to death.