NJA announces 1000 applications for pilot positions

[realityman]

Reality man,

I sit nearby the schedulers. My time and experience with them with them tells me punitive scheduling doesn't happen, but I'm not in your shoes to say it doesn't feel that way to you. Most of the day they are trying to keep up with the changes and don't have the time to nitpick at people. In the evening as the operation winds down, we get calls from crews on standby asking if they're still needed. This is a good thing. Many times they aren't needed and they get shutdown asap. The reason it took the crew calling is because they're still working on other things and the focus isn't there yet. If they are still needed, they will be told "you're backing up xyz and when it departs, we'll shut you down".

You may be getting questions on maintenance gripes, but you should be getting no pushback. In fact the direction is given that unless a MM reference is available to prove something is still airworthy, they should not and cannot refuse a discrepancy. You hear aggravation in their voice because they too are understaffed and the phone never stops ringing. Escalate to the ACP or the MAB if you're etting pushed.

I'm sure there are significantly more than 3% whom never call off, fly tired, squawk mx, etc. if you're picking up aircraft that have mx issues, that's a problem too. Just because you break an airplane doesn't put you in the 3%. Most of the items are confirmed and repaired. The issues you speak dont put you in 3%. The 3% I speak of create enough waves that affect many people trying to do their jobs. Those who you agree are on a vendetta are the ones I speak of. It's probably not even 3%...and I agree the abusers are rare, but out of 2700 rare can be dozens.

If you agree that there are a select few, are there any ways to 'self police' these guys? It would seem to me that these few would actually hamper the ability for your group to attain its goals. They get the focus while you're getting beat to death on the road.

SG

SG,

This is where you and I must part ways. I thought we were having a good discussion, and even getting to see things from each other's perspective. But so far, I have acknowledged that there may be a few problem children amongst our ranks, but you have yet to acknowledge, even once, that there are problems coming from the company side being instigated from the top down.

I say we're getting heavy pushback from maintenance, you say not likely and I'm just misinterpreting the aggravated tone of voice. I say the intimidation factor with things like sick and fatigue calls is incredibly high, you say surely there must be a way to police our own (or the alternate: they're abusers and should be dealt with that way). Even your terminology is ingrained to side with the company. You mention about when I "break" a plane. Uh, I have NEVER broken a plane. I document discrepancies when I find a plane is broken. Maybe it's just semantics, I know you know what's going on, but it is a very subtle subconscious thing that predisposes a person to believe I actively caused the problem.

I like how you write, and it has helped me get a perspective from the other side. But you seem to simply be unable to accept what I tell you is going on. A little G4 syndrome. We used to stay at the Westin in BJC, now it's the Drury Inn. The vast majority of our markets are seeing steady, albeit slow, declines in the quality of hotels we use. The Drury Inn. Really?! But hey, like G4 says, we aren't one of those crappy jobs. Yet.

I understand that most departments are as understaffed and overworked as we are. And I'm not saying most of the problems are coming from the rank and file of B'way workers. But the issues I've brought up are real, and being perpetuated from middle management on up. I used to look forward to going to work. Now I dread it. Will I be fired for writing too many things up? Or fired for not writing something up (both of those have happened)? Fired for or disciplined for calling fatigued too many times? Or sick because the timing wasn't where the company thought it should be? The list goes on and on and on.

Thanks for a civil discourse. No matter what happens, I hope we can get things back on track so you, me, G4, and everyone else can have a great career here.

 

[Some guy]

Pilots don't "break" airplanes. That is negative office rhetoric of the most offensive kind. The airplane has the defect because of use or a defective part. Pilots note the discrepancy and then office people run around saying the "pilots broke the airplane!!" That in itself is subtle intimidation and false blame. It happens at my company too, and it is disgusting.

You are correct. That's the language that's used, but I don't think we mean to imply fault...At least I dont. I've used the language many times without much thought about how offensive it may sound. All of us repeat sayings and cliches in day to day conversation without paying attention to the real meaning.

SG

 

[Some guy]

SG,

This is where you and I must part ways. I thought we were having a good discussion, and even getting to see things from each other's perspective. But so far, I have acknowledged that there may be a few problem children amongst our ranks, but you have yet to acknowledge, even once, that there are problems coming from the company side being instigated from the top down.

I say we're getting heavy pushback from maintenance, you say not likely and I'm just misinterpreting the aggravated tone of voice. I say the intimidation factor with things like sick and fatigue calls is incredibly high, you say surely there must be a way to police our own (or the alternate: they're abusers and should be dealt with that way). Even your terminology is ingrained to side with the company. You mention about when I "break" a plane. Uh, I have NEVER broken a plane. I document discrepancies when I find a plane is broken. Maybe it's just semantics, I know you know what's going on, but it is a very subtle subconscious thing that predisposes a person to believe I actively caused the problem.

I like how you write, and it has helped me get a perspective from the other side. But you seem to simply be unable to accept what I tell you is going on. A little G4 syndrome. We used to stay at the Westin in BJC, now it's the Drury Inn. The vast majority of our markets are seeing steady, albeit slow, declines in the quality of hotels we use. The Drury Inn. Really?! But hey, like G4 says, we aren't one of those crappy jobs. Yet.

I understand that most departments are as understaffed and overworked as we are. And I'm not saying most of the problems are coming from the rank and file of B'way workers. But the issues I've brought up are real, and being perpetuated from middle management on up. I used to look forward to going to work. Now I dread it. Will I be fired for writing too many things up? Or fired for not writing something up (both of those have happened)? Fired for or disciplined for calling fatigued too many times? Or sick because the timing wasn't where the company thought it should be? The list goes on and on and on.

Thanks for a civil discourse. No matter what happens, I hope we can get things back on track so you, me, G4, and everyone else can have a great career here.

As I said in the post a few minutes ago, I didn't mean to imply you were breaking airplanes. Airplanes break and the faults are usually confirmed and repaired. I've also said I'm not in your shoes to know what is being thrown your way. That said, I can't deny what is coming at you from the top or down the ops side of the house. Even things such as hotels or crew meals Im lacking intimate knowledge about. I haven't discounted many of the things you have said because I don't know enough to speak about them. I do know less than 10 have been terminated, and a couple are back. I don't know enough about any of the cases to have an opinion. We run 180k flights per year with 2700 pilots who squawk 33k yearly deferrals and God knows how many AOG items. I have to believe that that if a couple were fired for writing something up or not writing something up, there is more to the story than we both know. We both agree there are a few out there that want to hurt OUR company.

I am somewhat sympathetic to the cause of your group. My fear is tactics by the few that could cause irreversible damage. I mentioned policing your own with these few because I would think preventing them from diluting your cause with shenanigans would be helpful to your cause. Again, I'm not in your shoes.

If you've read any of my posts from long ago you may have figured out I work in MCC. I'm not a controller, but I used to be. I still work with them side by side. We are not permitted to not accept a discrepancy. We get agitated when new rules are put in place such as this: We cannot ask you to "reboot" an aircraft because there is no procedure for it. Going black and starting the checklist over doesn't count. These aircraft are run by computers and many times rebooting fixes the problem. Pulling and resetting a circuit breaker to reset a system also fixes many faults. Even though these practices were done successfully for many many years before the rule was in place, it can no longer be done. I know there are numerous arguments on your side for this and I've heard them all. I'm sure there may be pushback from these types of things, but we cannot tell you not to squawk it. We also ask for more pictures not because we don't believe you, but sometimes the visual aide helps us understand what you're asking of us. Smoking rivets...every aircraft in the world has smoking rivets. But I know the argument there too...they could be unsafe! Erosion tape with a corner peeling? That's unsafe too. And these things take our time away from us taking care of airplanes that are truly having problems. As I've said call your ACP or the MAB for escalation. They can bitch, moan, and complain, but if anyone ever tells you to not write something up, pm me with a name because we cannot do that. I've heard on many occasions that the equipment you fly is actually maintained well.

Agree or disagree makes no difference. We're both in this together. I too enjoy the dialogue and I learn more with every posting. I also can't wait for everyone to be happy again, but I think it will be a couple years before that happens.

SG

 

[Willy21]

Erosion tape that is peeling is in the MEL. Somebody above my pay level must have thought it should be there. Are you asking me to not report something that should be MEL'd?

 

[Some guy]

Erosion tape that is peeling is in the MEL. Somebody above my pay level must have thought it should be there. Are you asking me to not report something that should be MEL'd?

Here we go. No I am not. As far as I know, it's AOG until the loose part is cut off or its removed. Once that is done it can be deferred. I'd have to check the books to verify this. It was an example to make a point.

Waiting for the peeling erosion tape is unsafe argument in 3, 2, 1...

SG

 

[Willy21]

I'm not saying its unsafe. It's in the MEL, if I get ramped and a FED asks me why peeling erosion tape isn't documented I get violated. So if I see it peeling it gets written up. That is a bad example.

 

[G4dude]

PS-You can quit with the condescending attitude. Newsflash buddy, most of us have had plenty of jobs in the "outside world". Been ground up in the shredder of those crappy jobs you mention. Which is exactly why I can see the trend of where we're headed. Good sales, a growing company, and new planes does not equate to a good job.

I just keep wondering about horror stories about the company I fly for, when I haven't heard any of them. I've been here a long time, and am not some outsider being told about some big company called NetJets which does these bad things. As for the other crappy jobs, they comprise a lot of the REAL world out there, and the real world needs to be considered when talking about how bad our jobs are. That's all.

 

[T-1GUY]

You never here about any horror stories at Nutjets, and yet you live on these boards? Try reading someones post once in awhile. This thread is full of negative stories that happen everyday at YOUR place of work. You truly are uniformed,

 

[G4dude]

You never here about any horror stories at Nutjets, and yet you live on these boards? Try reading someones post once in awhile. This thread is full of negative stories that happen everyday at YOUR place of work. You truly are uniformed,

My point is, I shouldn't need to hear about them on these boards. I fly for the company! None of my colleagues talk about, or apparently know, about this stuff. If these stories are true, or at least the whole story. I have heard some stories about some pilots who really need to be fired.

 

[Sky Captain]

I ask the questions I ask so I can see perspective from a different point of view. Your latest post helps me understand (a little) the irritation that is out there. From my point of view, there have been a select few over the years that have caused many problems. These problems have been largely ignored until the last year. If the company is terminating without first trying discipline, then yes there is a problem.

When a new temp ACP has been at the desk for a few weeks, I'll ask him what he thinks. I always get the same response..."I had no idea". They see those of us at the center of the operation do not treat anyone on the road any different from anyone else. They see some of the ridiculousness that we've been seeing for years and they're stunned. Again, it's a small number that cause the problems and maybe (hopefully) you haven't experienced it. These are the guys that turn your 10 hour day into 14 because you're their recovery.

Those of us sitting at the core of the operation can scroll through IJet and usually pinpoint where we're going to have problems based solely on the names assigned to a tail. That's a problem. For the other 97% who bust their asses every day, thank you. We know you're tired.

SG

Oh... You are a management guy. Now your first posts where I thought you were in HR makes sense.

Glad u agree erosion tape coming off the vertical tail is an AOG item. Now, will you tell the CMH CPs that a patch coming off the tail deice boots should also be an AOG instead of a MEL.