NJ Recalls

[G4dude]

Actually, I've been enjoying the wave of rather civil discussions that have been flowing through most of the threads as of late.

There have been disagreements, but lately none have stooped to the typical "third-grade playground" behavior we've come to expect on FI....

You are right! And it has been much appreciated.

 

[imacdog]

I am not sure how you get to pass judgment on what is mediocre. I don't consider the upper 5% of U.S wage earners as mediocre and to be paid that to do something I love to do, something I can't wait to get out of bed in the morning to do. I am truly blessed to be so lucky.

As stated before I got to live my childhood dream of being a Navy pilot, anything beyond that is well mediocre. I have been real lucky and it has been an adventure and I would do it all over again, particularly the military flying. I wanted to fly from the first time in 1947, I saw a P-51 Mustang buzz the National Guard Armory. I built the models, took flight lessons and pursued getting a slot in the military from my first day of college. Joined the Navy, in 1965, flew all over the world, did neat things, landed on boats, flew in Vietnam. Married a great gal who supported me, raised the family, put up with deployments, unemployment, and moves every 3 years and never threatened to bail out. She can pack up a household in one day to move to the next job. We are all hostages to fortune (thank you E Gann), and do not have the control over our lives we would like to think we do. The guys who make it to the FedEx, SWA, NJ level are very fortunate to be where they are, but there is an element of luck and timing that has nothing to do with their skill or desire.

Take a look at what you make, then take a look at what the pilots at the top unionized carriers make. The groups who bargained for their payscales because they knew they were worth it. The ones who did rock the boat, unafraid that a pay raise would cause their company to go out of business. That's where you'll find the definition of mediocre, because of your fear of what a pay raise might do for your company, and why you and your pilots aren't making what they could be making.

 

[OHGOON]

That is not what I read in many of the posts here, I see under paid, over worked and we will shut the place down if we don't get our way. The message that managment needs to be taught a lesson on who really runs the company.

Anyone who does not go rah! rah!, is somehow a lessor human being.

Most of us in this profession are underpaid and overworked. We are professionals with years invested in our skills and experience and yet most of us slave away in sub par jobs just to keep current hoping for greener pastures. There are many flying companies whose whole business model depends on cheap and readily exploitable pilots. I am sure if you look around a little you will see what I just described. No one wants to shut down their place of work, but when you are being put between a rock and a hard place by unbelievable greed and shortsightedness on the part of management what are you to do? Keep your head down and pray the storm will pass or are you going to stand up and refuse to be party to the corruption? Problem is, that when you do this on your own, you are more than likely going to loose your job over it unless you have the strength of an organized pilot group behind you.

Secondly, I have never met anyone who was involved in Union business who ever thought they were running the company. That is just anti union rhetoric designed to inflame things. It is not based on reality. Unions represent labor, they are not angling to be shadow managers.

Thirdly, I can't really help you with feelings of being less than others just because you perceive quite correctly that your particular take on Unionism is not always being welcomed with open arms.

 

[Danny040]

All furlough longevity pay is going to be negotiated away. Every current member is going to swear they voted no. Its going to be so fun knowing Im in a crammed cockpit with someone that negotiated me to 4 yr Fo pay rather than 10 yr while showing me pictures of your boat and 3rd wife. I'm not gonna hold my farts in that cockpit.

 

[jetlag7]

All furlough longevity pay is going to be negotiated away. Every current member is going to swear they voted no. Its going to be so fun knowing Im in a crammed cockpit with someone that negotiated me to 4 yr Fo pay rather than 10 yr while showing me pictures of your boat and 3rd wife. I'm not gonna hold my farts in that cockpit.

Where do ya'll get these bizarre ideas?

Have some faith my friend.

 

[CA1900]

Where do ya'll get these bizarre ideas?

Have some faith my friend.

Indeed. I have not heard (or read) one single pilot suggesting that. I certainly would never support abrogating someone's seniority or recall rights as part of a new contract. Our furloughed pilots are still part of this company until the day they resign, and should be treated as such.

 

[OPECJet]

Where do ya'll get these bizarre ideas?

Have some faith my friend.

Indeed. I have not heard (or read) one single pilot suggesting that. I certainly would never support abrogating someone's seniority or recall rights as part of a new contract. Our furloughed pilots are still part of this company until the day they resign, and should be treated as such.

NJASAP has done a stellar job in creating a divide between active and furloughed pilots. It started on 01/16/10 at 0001 Eastern time. I was posting something in the crew lounge part of the message board and finished the post about 1 minute after that. It wouldn't post and the only forum I had available was the furloughed board. NJASAP flipped the switch at the stroke of midnight.

On the flip side, company email worked for 4 more days as did access to the crewops website. The union shut us off immediately, the company waited 4 days.

Then there were the BS reasons thrown around by various eboard members as to why we got locked out. When you called them out on it, the truth came out every time. It's a trust issue and remains so to this day.

Given the union driven communication divide between active and furloughed pilots, lack of communications with us and past negotiating history if practically every other airline out there who has gone to Section 6 with furloughed pilots, we have every reason not to trust NJASAP.

It is not the pilots who will negotiate this upcoming contract. It's the negotiating team. I have no reason to think our unlimited recall rights and or continued longevity accrual won't get traded in order to maintain a current benefit to the active group, be it insurance premiums, crew food, higher per diem, different OT rules, or even extending the FO pay scale since there will probably never be another upgrade class at NJA. It will then be up to the pilot group to decide whether to accept it or not. Since we're not there to defend ourselves, it would likely pass.

When it comes down to it, each pilot voting on a TA asks himself "is this good for me?".

To both members whom I quoted, I genuinely appreciate your viewpoint on our furloughed group. I hope you are in the majority and I know there are more with the same thoughts. The truth of it is that there are several who don't share that thought when it comes down to their wallet. In all honesty, it's hard to blame them when the company is spouting 2017-18 for recalls and there are few faces and no voices to go along with those numbers.

 

[CA1900]

NJASAP has done a stellar job in creating a divide between active and furloughed pilots.

I don't disagree at all. I've been very vocal in my opposition to the segregation, and continue to be. Unfortunately they still haven't change their minds about it.

You're correct about the negotiating team, but they'll be doing it with input from the members. I'll make sure they know my thoughts, and hope more of the membership will also make that effort.

 

[imacdog]

I don't disagree at all. I've been very vocal in my opposition to the segregation, and continue to be. Unfortunately they still haven't change their minds about it.

You're correct about the negotiating team, but they'll be doing it with input from the members. I'll make sure they know my thoughts, and hope more of the membership will also make that effort.

Do you honestly believe the membership, when voting time comes, is going to look much beyond pay and days off in the TA?

 

[CA1900]

Do you honestly believe the membership, when voting time comes, is going to look much beyond pay and days off in the TA?

Maybe I'm overly optimistic, but yes, I do.

After lots of folks got burned by all the little gotchas and omissions in the 05 and 07 contracts, I think they'll be a little more inclined to dig a little deeper. You'll always have a contingent that looks at nothing but those things, but I think that group will be smaller this time.

 

[imacdog]

I'm glad you have faith, 'cause I haven't met too many people willing to vote down a pay raise because of some provision for the furloughed pilots (who weren't there in 2005, so they're not real NJA pilots anyway).

 

[amaineiac]

Where do ya'll get these bizarre ideas?

Have some faith my friend.

We get these crazy ideas when we're in the van with a NJA crew, mention to the older captain that we're one of the "495" and get a blank stare in return. After an awkward few seconds, his FO tells him, "he's one of our furloughed guys".....and he still seems a bit confused that NJA still has guys on the street.

Or another time when I'm chatting with an FO that flat out tells me he doesn't see us ever coming back and his only concern is getting bypass pay for some seniority injustice he perceived happend when NJI joined NJA.

Having said that, most of the guys I run into are great and when they find out I'm furloughed, genuinely seem interested in the new company I'm working for and ask how I'm doing. They also say they would never sell us out and can't wait for us to get back on the property.

So I have faith, but the small (I hope) number of DB's over there scare the heck out of me.

 

[jetlag7]

We get these crazy ideas when we're in the van with a NJA crew, mention to the older captain that we're one of the "495" and get a blank stare in return. After an awkward few seconds, his FO tells him, "he's one of our furloughed guys".....and he still seems a bit confused that NJA still has guys on the street.

Or another time when I'm chatting with an FO that flat out tells me he doesn't see us ever coming back and his only concern is getting bypass pay for some seniority injustice he perceived happend when NJI joined NJA.

Having said that, most of the guys I run into are great and when they find out I'm furloughed, genuinely seem interested in the new company I'm working for and ask how I'm doing. They also say they would never sell us out and can't wait for us to get back on the property.

So I have faith, but the small (I hope) number of DB's over there scare the heck out of me.

That's certainly understandable, but believe me - they are clearly the minority and the rest of us are working really hard to bring them around..... 1 DB at a time....

 

[727C47]

odds are the 495 would be grandfathered anyway even if there is a change in the furlough section of a new CBA.

 

[OPECJet]

odds are the 495 would be grandfathered anyway even if there is a change in the furlough section of a new CBA.

Only if that grandfathering is negotiated in. Historically that hasn't happened.