New generation of USAF officers

[ExAF]

Highside, awesome post again.
Couldn't agree more.
I don't like the politically correct we-are-all-contributing-to-the-fight-and-therefore-all-warriors mentality. Some people are more in the fight than others. And some are WAY more in the fight. Some are not even really in the fight, but support those doing the killing. That's great and the war effort requires your service, but it's just not the same. In fact, it's insulting (actually, probably more laughable) to compare yourself as an equal.

Speaking as another one of those who has been shot at on the ground and in the air, it is true that some are more in the fight than others. My experience has been that many times it is the luck of the draw, timing, or being in the right place at the right time and not willingness to fight or size of the cohones that determines who the warriors in the fight are. Getting shot at is getting shot at whether you are in a fighter, heavy, hummer, tank, Bradly, truck, tent, foxhole, or out in the streets. It only takes one piece of well placed metal to kill you just as dead. For every person "in the fight" there are probably at least 3 more who are itching to go and having to wait their turn. They are no less a warrior that the ones there now. I agree that the boots on the ground are more in the fight than others. I also agree that predator pilots shouldn't be getting (PTOOOEY) air medals, but when Highside says that if you are not on the front lines with the ground forces you are not a warrior, I have to throw the BS flag. Don't get me wrong, I'm NOT taking anything away from the courage and dedication of our troops on ground doing the day to day fighting. They have my utmost respect and gratitude. I'm just saying you don't have to be one of them to be a warrior. You can draw the "who is more equal to whom" line wherever you want. If you talk to some of the wounded who flew back to the world on a C-17, I'm willing to bet some of them would say the most important person in the war was the flight nurse that cared for them on the long painful flight back. It's all a matter of perspective. I certainly didn't consider myself more important/equal than the S-3 across the table in the TOC, or the grunt in the Hummer in front of mine, or the crew chief that fueled my jet. They all had their part to play or nothing got done.

 

[kingsize]

ExAF, I agree with pretty much everything you say. The only issue I've ever had is this politically correct opinion that everyone is created equal, or that we all matter. Maybe we all matter, but when it comes to killing the enemy, some people are RIGHT THERE KILLING the enemy, and that deserves a certain amount of acknowledgement and "warrior" respect above and beyond the rest. I don't think everyone is equal, and that there is a warrior "ladder" out there, with some on rungs higher or lower than others. It is close to impossible to define that warrior ladder because, as you say, it has much to do with timing and with situations, and may have little to do with whether or not you have the "get in the game and bust some heads" mentality. All I say is respect the ladder, whatever it is, and realize service members aren't all equal. To me, a JTAC on the ground that has a rocket land 30 yards from him, and 3 minutes later is shooting a guy 15 feet away from him, all while trying to coordinate air support, is more in the fight than the A-10s he's talking to, and that A-10 is more in the fight than me at 30,000'+ loitering, with no real threats, and I'm more in the fight than a C-5 flying into the Al Udeid, and that C-5 is not really in the fight (directly at least), but is helping feed the fight moreso than a T-37 IP at Vance, and that T-37 IP is not operational, but is at least putting through the next pilots to get to the fight so he is more in it than a glider instructor at the Air Force Academy who is more in it than some guy working in the finance office. But that glider instructor might have just come back from Iraq where he was regualrly in the sh!t, and on his last mission one of the Army infantry sergeants he used to BS with just got killed. Before that stint in Iraq, he was flying A-10s raining hate on the Taliban. So that puts his warrior contribution above everyone above in my opinion (well, except the JTAC that was almost killed and had to do some close killing of his own).

 

[Deuce130]

I think most people just want to be recognized and appreciated for whatever it is that they actually did or are doing for the war effort. I don't think anyone would argue that a Marine or Soldier isn't placed above a guy in a cockpit during the fighting. That same soldier can be trumped by a Green Beret. That same Green Beret can be trumped by a Navy SEAL. That same Navy SEAL, etc etc. It is, however, possible to thank a guy for his service without disparaging another. Look at how P.O.'d the AF brass is right now that the Army and Marine Corps brass is calling OEF and OIF their war b/c they're the ones doing the fighting and dying (they're really just after more dollars, not more respect). If a guy is a trigger puller, thank him. If a guy is a C-17 pilot, then thank him without talking smack out of the other side of your mouth. I have to work alot with the CAF and they're really is a BS heirarchy out there. It begins with single seat fighters, then on to two-seat fighters, then on B-2 pilots, then B-1, then blah blah blah. I actually had a jacka** ask me why we have a SOF weapons school when we don't have any weapons. This comes from an F-15C pilot who gets the hairy eyeball from F-16 pilots, who get the eyeroll from the A-10's, and so on. It's ridiculous. My point is that SOMEONE ELSE will always trump whatever it is that YOU do or did. Be humble about it, don't let it bother you, and don't do it back to anyone else.

 

[Deuce130]

I want to VOMIT when I see Air Force pilots getting Bronze Stars, Silver Stars, and DFC's while army grunts are serving for a year watching their friends DIE and losing body parts only to get an Army Commendation Medal. .. The true warriors are possibly gravitating away from the pilot career field because they want to be where the fight is.

Couldn't agree more. The military should put a disclaimer on the AF Bronze star. Grunts have to do amazing things to get them, often posthumously. AF officers only have to be mission commanders or supervisors for a single deployment to get them. It's a joke. We also had a casual LT in my squadron turn his UPT slot back in so he could join the Army. I thought it was the gutsiest move I ever saw.

 

[kingsize]

Deuce, sounds good to me...totally agree with both you guys about vomiting when seeing AF officers getting bronze stars just because of rank and being n the box. What's this all about anyways?? Oh yeah, new generation of officers...and that naturally led into talking about new generation of pilots (since this is a pilot forum) and how a lot choose aircraft that keep them out of the fight, or a lot don't seem to have the warrior mentality. Some say it has always been this way, some say we are too politically correct now, to where a student can get away with backtalking to an IP, even on a checkride...I don't know. I definitely see a difference in the new guys, that SNAP attitude that they deserve everything, but also they are really smart people. They just want to do the job and go home to their families, without all the BS, maximizing their time at home. I guess that's understandable, maybe different from past generations, but understandable. I think they'll be able to walk the walk when put to task.

 

[AlbieF15]

...Let me be the first to apologize for the F-15C guy who scoffed SOF weapons school...

Every community has their 10%. Sorry.

 

[ExAF]

Agreed!

I'll gladly endorse and agree with posts 77-80. Especially on the "ladder" and the awards comments. Everybody contributes, just some in a much more direct way than others. Nearly any discussion involving awards and decorations will make me puke. My experience (although not very current) was for every one that was truly deserved, there were another 4 or 5 that weren't and that tended to cheapen those that were deserved. One big difference I saw on the bronze stars was that the troops who really deserved them usually had a "V for Valor" device that went with them. The "naked" ones didn't hold much water. That usually helped separate the wheat from the chaff. I've never much been for the Politically Correct crowd, which had a big influence in my decision to retire from active duty at the 20 year point instead of continuing on in what I perceived as a "becoming too PC for me" Air Force. Cheers to you all!:beer:

 

[SoundBarViolatr]

As a 15 year flying eSmurf (C5 FE), I sadly concur with the decline of the qaulity of people that have replaced the old timers, both in the E and O section.

As for getting more color into your salad bowl, who cares? I have been both in the air and on the ground (before other services "vomit" to this claim, I was an SF blue suiter attached to 2ID, Casey ROK) and in both places I have seen men and women display courage under fire. Besides, are you really that excited about spending more money at clothing sales??

Semper Per Diem,
SB

 

[JungleJett]

I recently read something somewhere that I thought I would post. I am not sure if it is word for word as I am doing this from memory...


If there is no nail, there is no horse..
If there is no horse, there is no rider...
If there is no rider, then the battle is lost....

 

[RunUp]

For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the battle was lost.
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a nail.

 

[JungleJett]

For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the battle was lost.
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a nail.

Thanks....

 

[SoundBarViolatr]

"Without fuel, Pilots are just pedestrians with Cool shades and a leather jacket."

- USAF Fuel Squadron T-Shirt

 

[DaveGriffin]

I think most people just want to be recognized and appreciated for whatever it is that they actually did or are doing for the war effort. I don't think anyone would argue that a Marine or Soldier isn't placed above a guy in a cockpit during the fighting. That same soldier can be trumped by a Green Beret. That same Green Beret can be trumped by a Navy SEAL. That same Navy SEAL, etc etc. It is, however, possible to thank a guy for his service without disparaging another. Look at how P.O.'d the AF brass is right now that the Army and Marine Corps brass is calling OEF and OIF their war b/c they're the ones doing the fighting and dying (they're really just after more dollars, not more respect). If a guy is a trigger puller, thank him. If a guy is a C-17 pilot, then thank him without talking smack out of the other side of your mouth. I have to work alot with the CAF and they're really is a BS heirarchy out there. It begins with single seat fighters, then on to two-seat fighters, then on B-2 pilots, then B-1, then blah blah blah. I actually had a jacka** ask me why we have a SOF weapons school when we don't have any weapons. This comes from an F-15C pilot who gets the hairy eyeball from F-16 pilots, who get the eyeroll from the A-10's, and so on. It's ridiculous. My point is that SOMEONE ELSE will always trump whatever it is that YOU do or did. Be humble about it, don't let it bother you, and don't do it back to anyone else.

Great point Deuce. Marines (most deadly fighting force in the history of the world), Army and Navy will always trump the AF blue jumpsuiters. Don't even worry about it.

 

[Scrapdog]

Great point Deuce. Marines (most deadly fighting force in the history of the world), Army and Navy will always trump the AF blue jumpsuiters. Don't even worry about it.

AF blue jumpsuiters? WTFO? Are you talking about missiliers? When's the last time an AF flyer wore a blue jumpsuit? You must be referring to your clown suit you wear to Halloween every year.

 

[Deuce130]

Great point Deuce. Marines (most deadly fighting force in the history of the world), Army and Navy will always trump the AF blue jumpsuiters. Don't even worry about it.

That's not what I meant, dipwad. Grow up.