New generation of USAF officers

[MalteseX]

Great point Deuce. Marines (most deadly fighting force in the history of the world), Army and Navy will always trump the AF blue jumpsuiters. Don't even worry about it.

Except if the AF "blue jumpsuiters" (ie Strat Missle Dudes) ever actually "turn their keys".... then they will (within 30 minutes or so) become the most deadly fighting force in the history of the world.

 

[Photoflight]

As a guy who quit his job a year ago..moved home for the explicit purpose of applying for UPT...the thought that the guys weren't literally standing on the line waiting for a chance to go fly kinda makes me sick.

What makes me more sick is that as of last week, after a year of BS, I was told i was medically DQ'ed because of hearing.

The opportunity to fly and fight for the USA was all I ever really wanted.

 

[frog_flyer]

did you ever know you had hearing issues? Or was this totally out of the blue like most dq stuff is?

 

[Gorilla]

Except if the AF "blue jumpsuiters" (ie Strat Missle Dudes) ever actually "turn their keys".... then they will (within 30 minutes or so) become the most deadly fighting force in the history of the world.

Haha, VERY true. The same applies to the pale Navy types in the boomers. Skinny or fat, unathletic, and capable of dealing death on a scale that is inconcievable.

 

[Mooseflyer]

Haha, VERY true. The same applies to the pale Navy types in the boomers. Skinny or fat, unathletic, and capable of dealing death on a scale that is inconcievable.

Still gotta pass that 1.5 mile run though! Maybe they should have a special fitness test for those dudes - like the ability to twist the wrist against a 3 lb force or something like that.

 

[AlbieF15]

Stand by for Rant...

I am a member of the "older" current officers...about 19 years TOS. I came in just in time to see the end of the cold war, and was a pilot on duty in time to catch the last of the 80s and the Reagan period.

Without airing a lot of dirty laundry, there were some real losers around the AF when I showed up...included infractions I remember from just my first squadron were a guy who got nailed cheating on TOP GUN scores at his Viper unit and disciplined, a wife beater, a girl-friend beater, a healthy handful of drunks, some thieves, and quite a few guys not afraid to tap another guy's wife when he was TDY to the war.

I also discovered that among our midst when the Gulf War kicked off were some cowards. A UPT classmate of mine was sent home disgraced from his A-10 unit after freaking out prior to the Gulf War. Our sister FAC squadron had several guys who got various "ailments" (physical or mental...) and came home prior to the war to be replaced by other guys from our unit. I later found out that in more than a few squadrons, there was a guy (or two) who do to "family" or "emotional" problems could not deploy or got sent home. To my shock, that even happened in an F-15 squadron...and without going on a tangent I will say that if you were a Hog or Viper driver going downtown I can certainly understand your apprehension, but MOST Eagle guys I knew were dying to get over the shoot something down! The outcome of the ground campaign was never guaranteed, but pretty much everyone was convinced the Eagles would rage in the air to air fight (and they did...)

I also know of a lot of mishaps where guys did some really stupid stuff. There were some honest mistakes, some air discipline problems, and some bad luck thrown in too...but we used to lose a lot more jets than we do now.

Roll the tape 4 years post Gulf War. The post cold war drawdown takes wicked effect, and MANY good officers along with just about ALL of the previously alluded to dirtbags and passed over and moved out. What is left is a much smaller force, and although we preach its not a one-mistake AF the fact is if you had a bad day or judgement call here or there you knew you could end up a civilian. That, along with the Clinton adminstration's tone, Tailhook 91, and various scandels (Jeannie Flynn, etc) created a more "politically correct" atmosphere. Some of us (me included) long for the rougher, rowdier days of the 80s. We are p1ssed our force has changed and sometimes we blame it on the younger officers...

Tactics wise...I'll sum it up like this. In 1991/92 I was dropping illumination flares and logs for air strike control training missions. When was the last time you saw any of those on CNN out of Iraq, Kosovo, or Afgahnistan? However, that was the state of our tactics at the time.

My take: The gold old days weren't always so good.

However, here are some facts about those new guys and gals....

While we trained for the Cold War, many (including cowards listed above) really hoped that war wouldn't come--and more than likely it was such a terrible tragedy if it did (remember the "Mike Plan" old guys?) that more than likely it wouldn't happen. Conversely, our "SNAP" that we bitch about has been doing Desert Caps over SA-6s for years. While it may not be a major shooting war, when you can see Bagdahd from your CAP or the Iranian border there isn't a lot of room for the illusion of "we are training for this but nothing will ever happen...."

Second--these young pups (including DueceC130 and Magnum off the top of my head) are experts at tactics and procedures we didn't have even 8 years ago. The NVG revolution, PGMs, and other advanced employment tools require more study, book work, and training that we had to do. I was raised on Aim7Ms and 9Ms in RTU....our new grads shoot amraams, do all kinds of L&L tactics, work FDL nets, and fly with NVGs when they leave the B-course...all with only a few more sorties that I did "back in the day...". Considering what we throw at them they do a hell of a job. I agree we may sacrifice some of the basics, but the tradeoff we make is a pilot that is a much more capable product than when I went through. Good leadership and weapons officers reinforce the basic stuff whenver the can, and I think the fighter guys are really doing well.

Finally--even though every group has its 10%...I completely trust that this generation of young officers KNOWS they are expected to be able to fight, and that is could happen. We've had guys in my F-15 squadron who have driven in convoys in Iraq after being sent for 120 day contingency TDYs. We all knew that after 9/11 there was no doubt we will be in combat and exposed to combat all over the globe--yet we still get folks to join and take up arms. I'm proud of those guys and gals... If a guy quits UPT or doesn't want a fighter--GOOD--make room for the guy or gal that does. However, we had our weak sisters even "back in the day...", so before anyone gives up on this generation of officers go ask some tough questions of some of the guys who were around 20 years ago and I'm sure you will hear some similar stories.

 

[McGillicutty]

Excellent post, AblieF15. Just got back from a Fri night morale flight--not a single crewmember bitched about the timing of the mish. In my squadron I was told "take a number and wait in line" to deploy down range. Lots of fellow CGOs are leaning forward about combat flying and I think some folks (who are worried about new officers) on here aren't exposed to that mentality.

 

[Snakum]

What makes me more sick is that as of last week, after a year of BS, I was told i was medically DQ'ed because of hearing.

The opportunity to fly and fight for the USA was all I ever really wanted.

I salute you. And allow me to suggest that you can still fly and fight ... while wearing green ... ask your nearest US Army recruiter about MOS 11B (Eleven Bang-Bang, Two-wheeled Pop-up Targets, Grunts, Cannon Fodder, etc.), where, depending on the unit and the assignment, you might be allowed to FLY into battle in the back of a Blackhawk and FIGHT with an M16A2. In a fit of patriotic fervor, I started paperwork to go back in last year (wanted a Crew Chief slot this time around) after a 12-year absence, and was also medically DQ'd for an ailment I thought might wreck my civilian flying, to boot. Thank God it didn't. You can still serve. And again ... I salute you.

... That same soldier can be trumped by a Green Beret ...

I beg to differ.

... That same Green Beret can be trumped by a Navy SEAL ...

OK ... now you're just talking cwazee! :nuts:




My sincerest gratitude to ALL who have served, and to those who do so currently.

 

[ExAF]

I Guess Not All Is Lost

Ran across this bit and it reminded me of this thread. http://www.usafa.org/pages/ZoomiEnews/Altusexperience.htm I guess some still get it. It also made me think "was I really that young back then?" I felt so grown up and mature at the time. Cheers...ExAF

 

[CobraKai]

OK I came in a little late on this. But to answer a previous question on this thread, More people wash out of T-1s than T-38s, or at least for the 3 years I was a FAIP.

It goes back to writing the paperwork for the lawers. When a stud made it to 38s he/she got every reasonable doubt, because they wouldn't be in 38s if they were not the best. (Not always the case with some class top 37/6 guys going the T-1 side) by the time they realized poor flying was not a mometary trend there was no paper trail to prove it. Student gets reinstated, last choice on drop night. On T-1 side we expected some of the bottom feeders because of phase II attitude of if they can slip through here and make it to the T-1 they will graduate. (instead of just washing them out of phase II) Therefor paperwork started early, the failure to progress is demonstrated throughout and they are gone. In my four years at a UPT base T-1s washed out 7 and the T-38s washed out 1 at the most (pretty sure the number is actually 0)

IF YOU ASK ME BOTH NUMBERS WERE TOO LOW. I still saw many that shouldn't have made it and are now all time copilots or in a few cases ACs that only deploy with highly experienced CPs or other ACs. The ACs were upgraded on the politically correct he has ben a CP for over a year and has the hours met.

 

[71KILO]

I don't think it is the new officers per se. I think it is the old officers unwilling to make a stand. I don't think the fighter community deals with it as much as the heavy community. We have a kid in my unit that has been in more trouble than I can even recount. Busted to permanent copilot, or for two years anyway when they found out how much it was going to cost to send him back to A/C school. They thought about FEBing him at one time but decided it would be too hard. None of the leadership wanted any dirt on them. Get through the assignment as fast as possible with out a blemish and move up. Who cares about the wasteland left behind for the next guy. Sickening.

 

[Scrapdog]

I don't think it is the new officers per se. I think it is the old officers unwilling to make a stand. I don't think the fighter community deals with it as much as the heavy community. We have a kid in my unit that has been in more trouble than I can even recount. Busted to permanent copilot, or for two years anyway when they found out how much it was going to cost to send him back to A/C school. They thought about FEBing him at one time but decided it would be too hard. None of the leadership wanted any dirt on them. Get through the assignment as fast as possible with out a blemish and move up. Who cares about the wasteland left behind for the next guy. Sickening.

That's not a problem with the heavy community - that's an issue that probably started in pilot training. If the kid stinks that bad...he probably showed multiple signs of that in tweets and later on in the T-1. It's the inability to wash guys out that are weak swimmers from the AETC side of the house that permeate later on in whatever jet they go to. Probably have more of an issue with that in the heavy community than fighters, but the root cause stems from AETC early on in their flying careers.

 

[milplt]

It isn't just AETC, it's problematic of the entire USAF flying community. It's the chicken vs. the egg - maybe we would produce better new aviators if the instructors were better at their job, maybe the instructors would be better if we didn't send IP's that couldn't make it as a 4E or AC, mabe our 4E's and AC's would be better if the students produced in UPT were better.

I know of at least one pilot that was not FEB's because the CC outright stated that he didn't want the board giving him (the CC) that kind of scrutiny (I suppose he didn't want any dirty laundry aired that could potentially stop his career progession). Now is that his fault? I don't know, maybe it is the fault of the even more senior leaders that allow that kind of environment and who would stop his progression if something was aired from a FEB.

I think we can see that these experiences of giving pilots AC or 2E just because they deserve it is a common practice. Every indidvidual unit sees it as just "their" problem and they tend to let "just this one" slide. Add up all of these individual instances across the Air Force and they make a big chunk. When we make these decisions, we need to start thinking of "what's best for the USAF as a whole" and recognize that 15 qualified and motivated pilots may be better than 17 pilots of questionable aptitude.

One last thing, I want all of the older craniums that have been out of AETC for a while to reflect on CobraKai's post. He said that in 4 YEARS, he knows of 8 total students that washed out of T-1's or T-38's. 8 in 4 years! Most of you lost that many and more from all of the classes that went through in the 1 year that you were at UPT. Our instruction hasn't improved that much. By the way, my experiences in AETC primary flight instruction support those numbers.

 

[CobraKai]

Like I said those numbers are pretty low, in my opinion. We tried to get others out but we were stopped by the leadership, no matter how good our documentation was. I do not know the numbers for Phase II off the top of my head in that same time span. I know in my class we lost only about 4 one was an SIE (his wife seemed to care more about UPT than he did, she would show up with hi at our study sessions and seem to know more of the GK). We had another guy wash back, but that is because he actually is a good pilot that just had 3 bad rides in a row then did his 88 ride with Capt Hook, because our Flight commander was out of town.

The timeline was our leadership's primary concern. Plenty of times I was told as, a scheduler, to blow off continuity in order to stay on the timeline, Easier for the good students but piss poor training for the bottom dwellers. The number of students that make it through UPT is the new metric.

 

[stonewall]

That's not a problem with the heavy community - that's an issue that probably started in pilot training. If the kid stinks that bad...he probably showed multiple signs of that in tweets and later on in the T-1. It's the inability to wash guys out that are weak swimmers from the AETC side of the house that permeate later on in whatever jet they go to. Probably have more of an issue with that in the heavy community than fighters, but the root cause stems from AETC early on in their flying careers.

We get 'em in fighters, too. We had a guy several years ago at base X that was seriously struggling in MQT. Got to the point he could only fly with an IP in the back seat...no C models for him. Anyway, we decided to cut him loose and started the research.

SMS in Tweets, T-38s, AT-38's AND the F-16 schoolhouse. He had a great attitude and tried hard, but he was just shuffled along with the idea that the next group of IPs would handle it. So what did we do? FEB? Nah...sent him to C-17s at McChord. WTF? Never should've touched an airplane again. All we did was make him someone else's problem.

Kicker was that he bitched about the assignment. I told him that several of my heavy driver bros would cut a limb off for that assignment, and he pretty much should shut up and color. Not sure what became of him.