New Emirates order....

[Whip Whitaker]

Good god, General Grant. 18000 posts in 11 years? That's over 4 posts a day every day for the last decade. I'm guessing you don't have much of a social life.

 

[General Lee]

I'm sure the domestic US industry will be fine. But over the next decade I would bet good money that you will see legacies losing the fight over international capacity with EK, Qatar, etc. It's a big sh#t sandwich but unless we see a radical shift in policy you better plan on it.

Not from the US. Americans don't need to fly to the Gulf to back track to Europe, or go to Asia. You may affect the European carriers, but not us. And plucking certain one way routes, like MXP to JFK, will have very little affect. The European countries will become more stringent if you really start affecting them. Your next turn will be to overtake Africa. Good luck.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Good god, General Grant. 18000 posts in 11 years? That's over 4 posts a day every day for the last decade. I'm guessing you don't have much of a social life.

This type of response usually comes from someone who cannot debate. I usually do multiple responses each time I log on, so you are wrong. Guys like you don't want people to do something they enjoy also. That is sad....


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Green]

General,

I think EK has already severely disrupted the european carriers. The big European hubs are being replaced by DXB. Instead of flying to Heathrow or Paris and then on to Asia, India, or Africa passengers are making one stop in Dubai then heading wherever.

MXP-JFK is just the first of many. The biggest impediment to Emirates at the moment is a lack of available aircraft. Once more airframes start arriving I think you will see Spain-USA, UK-USA, and Asia-USA. Given the capacity constraints at Dubai the logical response will be to open more routes which do not touch the hub.

When given a choice between a better product at a cheaper price or a US legacy I'm guessing most pax will choose EK. Possibly not those who are tied to a frequent flyer program. Lets see how the next 5 to 10 years pans out. EK is reaching critical mass and the brand is gaining awareness in the US. It's the last piece of the puzzle for Emirates.

 

[General Lee]

General,

I think EK has already severely disrupted the european carriers. The big European hubs are being replaced by DXB. Instead of flying to Heathrow or Paris and then on to Asia, India, or Africa passengers are making one stop in Dubai then heading wherever.

MXP-JFK is just the first of many. The biggest impediment to Emirates at the moment is a lack of available aircraft. Once more airframes start arriving I think you will see Spain-USA, UK-USA, and Asia-USA. Given the capacity constraints at Dubai the logical response will be to open more routes which do not touch the hub.

When given a choice between a better product at a cheaper price or a US legacy I'm guessing most pax will choose EK. Possibly not those who are tied to a frequent flyer program. Lets see how the next 5 to 10 years pans out. EK is reaching critical mass and the brand is gaining awareness in the US. It's the last piece of the puzzle for Emirates.

Wow, World domination is on your mind.... The European carriers are going to set up defenses, and if it doesn't work, then the Govts will continue to clamp down. It's just basic economics and politics. Enough complaints to the leaders, and they may not stay as leader too long. Dubai has a problem though, actually many, namely Doha, Abu Dhabi, Bahrain, and others. Everyone over there is trying for the same thing, connecting pax. The European airlines will have to get their financials in order, but when they do, nonstops will trump Gulf connections. You are also going up against airlines like Singapore, Malaysian, Air Asia, Garuda, etc. They have lower costs than you do. All the Gulf carriers will mainly compete against themselves, and it will crush you.


And, keep trying with Europe to the US routes, like, laughably, Birmingham to BOS. Yeah, keep it going.... Very interesting...


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Green]

You seriously think Singapore, Garuda, MAS, BA, KLM, etc present a real threat to EK? You realize that the Qantas tie-up effectively castrated Singapore right? The only real competition I see is from Lufthansa. But they are operating from a much higher cost basis.

BHX-BOS might be a good route. Huge indian populations in both cities. I guess it's not really worth arguing. I don't think you have a clear picture of the current state of affairs outside of the US. Lets just revisit this argument in 5 years. If EK is flying Antonovs out of Cameroon I will declare you the victor. By the way Africa is a massive profit center for Emirates.

I certainly don't want to see world domination for Dubai. I wish the US mgt teams would stop dicking around and seriously compete instead of endlessly focusing on synergies and cost control. They continue to do the same old thing and get the same results. Sadly I think the golden days of US aviation are long gone. Now it's run by a bunch of talking heads who just want to move money around and get rich in the process.

It's kind of sad to taxi by a DAL 757 with winglets on some ramp in Africa or Europe. It looks like a third world airline parked next to a bunch of 330's/340's and 777's. I hate to see Dubai taking over. I just call it as I see it. Wouldn't mind another big crash.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/03/opinion/dubai-khanna/index.html?hpt=hp_bn1

 

[Dornier 335]

I'm sure the domestic US industry will be fine. But over the next decade I would bet good money that you will see legacies losing the fight over international capacity with EK, Qatar, etc. It's a big sh#t sandwich but unless we see a radical shift in policy you better plan on it.

Cheap labor! How many thousands of Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis legally work 12 hour shifts for "a sack of rice" in Dubai et al? Take a look behind the scenes, it ain't pretty.

 

[General Lee]

You seriously think Singapore, Garuda, MAS, BA, KLM, etc present a real threat to EK? You realize that the Qantas tie-up effectively castrated Singapore right? The only real competition I see is from Lufthansa. But they are operating from a much higher cost basis.

BHX-BOS might be a good route. Huge indian populations in both cities. I guess it's not really worth arguing. I don't think you have a clear picture of the current state of affairs outside of the US. Lets just revisit this argument in 5 years. If EK is flying Antonovs out of Cameroon I will declare you the victor. By the way Africa is a massive profit center for Emirates.

I certainly don't want to see world domination for Dubai. I wish the US mgt teams would stop dicking around and seriously compete instead of endlessly focusing on synergies and cost control. They continue to do the same old thing and get the same results. Sadly I think the golden days of US aviation are long gone. Now it's run by a bunch of talking heads who just want to move money around and get rich in the process.

It's kind of sad to taxi by a DAL 757 with winglets on some ramp in Africa or Europe. It looks like a third world airline parked next to a bunch of 330's/340's and 777's. I hate to see Dubai taking over. I just call it as I see it. Wouldn't mind another big crash.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/03/opinion/dubai-khanna/index.html?hpt=hp_bn1

Funny stuff. Africa is fairly junior for our pilots, and that means you probably were in Dakar or Accra. Wow, enjoy those two hot spots. Have you been to Narita lately or AMS? A lot more DL 744s, 777s, 330s, etc. You must see a lot of Africa. Do you load up on Malarone? Watch your liver. Did you get a Typhoid shot? I don't go to Africa. I hear it is profitable for most airlines that go there. You must go there a lot. I'm not jealous. Do you have a choice to where you go? Not according to most on PPRUNE.

BOS to BHX may have some limited success, but not long term. Nah, that's throwing darts at hopes and dreams. And, I hope you guys are extremely profitable outside of the US, because that's just it, you won't get the huge access you desire TO the US. Big airports here are limited. Nobody wants to give up anything. Same with most of Europe. It's great you connect Chinese from PEK to Tripoli via DXB, that's fantastic. I don't think anyone else wants to do that. And, the big 3 US carriers are only getting stronger due to Consolidation, financially and even politically. Your entrance into the large cities and most profitable cities in the US will be limited. Sorry. Have a great one in Conakry.

PS--- you know who your real competition is? Turkish Air. They have access to all of Europe, anywhere in Germany and France, and have big planes coming too. They are the ones who give the Gulf Carriers heartburn. Via IST they have as many connections to all over the ME, even including cities like Mogudishu and Djibouti. And, IST is just a bit too far for Americans to back track to cities in Western Europe, and Asia is very doubtful. I bet their service rivals yours, too, and they are a member of NATO. Oh well..... A perfect buffer to the Gulf Carriers.




Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[flyboyike]

I wish the US mgt teams would stop dicking around and seriously compete instead of endlessly focusing on synergies and cost control. They continue to do the same old thing and get the same results. Sadly I think the golden days of US aviation are long gone. Now it's run by a bunch of talking heads who just want to move money around and get rich in the process.

Amen.

 

[Flopgut]

It's kind of sad to taxi by a DAL 757 with winglets on some ramp in Africa or Europe. It looks like a third world airline parked next to a bunch of 330's/340's and 777's. I hate to see Dubai taking over.

The US Navy is larger than the next largest 13 naval fleets of other countries. I point that out as a reminder that if/when our airlines get their act together we will be a force to be reckoned with. The US is not completely inept. Additionally, it sounds to me as though there is going to be a lot of fighting amongst each of the three Gulf carriers and and Turkish. Possible you three/four duke it out and we stay clear of the fray. Be careful predicting the certainty of US airline demise.

Comments like this will wear thin real quick:

"In a sign of the Gulf's increasing power in the industry, Emirates Chairman Sheikh Ahmed bin Saeed Al Maktoum said he was confident of a shift in stance in the West that would allow the group to fly more of its planes to airports there.



"We are buying a product from their countries. So why would they not allow us to fly to these airports? If they don't, they can take their planes back," he said."

No matter how sincere that that threat is, no American wants to hear it. I hope he keeps popping off like that.

 

[General Lee]

The US Navy is larger than the next largest 13 naval fleets of other countries. I point that out as a reminder that if/when our airlines get their act together we will be a force to be reckoned with.

Comments like this will wale at thin real quick:

"In a sign of the Gulf's increasing power in the industry, Emirates Chairman Sheikh Ahmed bin Saeed Al Maktoum said he was confident of a shift in stance in the West that would allow the group to fly more of its planes to airports there.



"We are buying a product from their countries. So why would they not allow us to fly to these airports? If they don't, they can take their planes back," he said."

Wow, that guy thinks he can rule the world, all because he backs huge loans. Germany and France seem to disagree. They know, as well as countries like the US, that there aren't many quality big plane manufacturers out there. So you wanna fly big? Take a pick between the two. Otherwise, go to Antanov or Comac......


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Green]

General,

I prefer Haneda over Narita so I haven't been to Narita lately. But I did see one of your 767's parked in between a 787 and 77W on the ramp at Haneda. It was looking a bit worn out.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "Your entrance into the large cities and most profitable cities in the US will be limited. Sorry." We fly to IAD, JFK, DFW, IAH, SFO, SEA, LAX, BOS is coming, and we have ORD on the freighter. Last time I lived in the US those were considered "large cities." The next step will be connecting those cities to destinations other than Dubai. EK has already stated that they are going to double the amount of US destinations over the next few years.

I also don't understand your logic when you say BHX-BOS would be good for a limited time. If it works now it will just get better with time. Once an Indian population takes root in a city they tend to expand not contract.

The 777X was built largely for Emirates. But as you say maybe Boeing was bluffing and they might just cancel all those orders and give them at a discount to the US airlines instead. I'm not sure if the big 3 could split 150 orders between them but I'm sure Boeing would do anything to make EK have to order Antonovs instead. France and Germany haven't done much to limit EK's access to the 380. Lufthansa has 10, Air France has 8, while EK has 40 with firm orders for another 100! As you would say "Good luck with that."

 

[fareview]

Funny stuff. Africa is fairly junior for our pilots, and that means you probably were in Dakar or Accra. Wow, enjoy those two hot spots. Have you been to Narita lately or AMS? A lot more DL 744s, 777s, 330s, etc. You must see a lot of Africa. Do you load up on Malarone? Watch your liver. Did you get a Typhoid shot? I don't go to Africa. I hear it is profitable for most airlines that go there. You must go there a lot. I'm not jealous. Do you have a choice to where you go? Not according to most on PPRUNE.

BOS to BHX may have some limited success, but not long term. Nah, that's throwing darts at hopes and dreams. And, I hope you guys are extremely profitable outside of the US, because that's just it, you won't get the huge access you desire TO the US. Big airports here are limited. Nobody wants to give up anything. Same with most of Europe. It's great you connect Chinese from PEK to Tripoli via DXB, that's fantastic. I don't think anyone else wants to do that. And, the big 3 US carriers are only getting stronger due to Consolidation, financially and even politically. Your entrance into the large cities and most profitable cities in the US will be limited. Sorry. Have a great one in Conakry.

PS--- you know who your real competition is? Turkish Air. They have access to all of Europe, anywhere in Germany and France, and have big planes coming too. They are the ones who give the Gulf Carriers heartburn. Via IST they have as many connections to all over the ME, even including cities like Mogudishu and Djibouti. And, IST is just a bit too far for Americans to back track to cities in Western Europe, and Asia is very doubtful. I bet their service rivals yours, too, and they are a member of NATO. Oh well..... A perfect buffer to the Gulf Carriers.




Bye Bye---General Lee

Good point on Turkish....great for Star Alliance over Skyteam.


Re other points....the problem now for competitors becomes equipment. One of the reasons EK have been so successful was how we broke the 'kangaroo route' by using 77Ws over the competitions 744s. With fuel at 40% of cost, the aircraft used is crucial. It's why competing with DAL on MXP is going to take away millions in their revenue due to them using the old clapped out 767s (not to mention service a la 'sky hag' )

This latest order for an aircraft that is up to 15% more efficient that current 77Ws will add to pressure - eg the 'new' A330s that Delta bought from the French and that will presumably be used for years just cannot compete with the 777X.

Loads more to chat about but the chauffeur is here ...gotta do my commute from the sitting room to the back seat ; >

fv

PS . Anyone tell me what's the most junior DOH of a DAL 777 capt who lives in hub and the more generally what the most junior DOH of a DAL DC-9... Thanks, I'll check back later when I get to my Suite.

 

[General Lee]

Good point on Turkish....great for Star Alliance over Skyteam.


Re other points....the problem now for competitors becomes equipment. One of the reasons EK have been so successful was how we broke the 'kangaroo route' by using 77Ws over the competitions 744s. With fuel at 40% of cost, the aircraft used is crucial. It's why competing with DAL on MXP is going to take away millions in their revenue due to them using the old clapped out 767s (not to mention service a la 'sky hag' )

This latest order for an aircraft that is up to 15% more efficient that current 77Ws will add to pressure - eg the 'new' A330s that Delta bought from the French and that will presumably be used for years just cannot compete with the 777X.

Loads more to chat about but the chauffeur is here ...gotta do my commute from the sitting room to the back seat ; >

fv

PS . Anyone tell me what's the most junior DOH of a DAL 777 capt who lives in hub and the more generally what the most junior DOH of a DAL DC-9... Thanks, I'll check back later when I get to my Suite.

Hahaha! Your suite in Khartoum? Awesome! Wow, you're a 777 Capt living in the ME! I'd rather be a DC9 Capt in America, and it appears TP agreed, read the quote below.

The 77W is a great plane, but when you not only help your fuel costs with your own refinery in one of your busiest hub cities (NYC), but also make over $1.3 billion in profit for one quarter, you can probably continue to use older 744s. Those new A330s coming in a couple years will be used to target nonstop Asia flights from the SEA hub, the same airport that you won't be able to expand from other than your current one daily flight. Cry as you might, no room. But, there is plenty of room for you in deep Africa.

And, Turkish did go to Star Alliance, and they may even hook up more with LH, which would really put the kibosh on your expansion hopes and dreams from ALL of Europe to the ME. We all give Turk a golf clap for being a buffer to your plans. They do all you WISH you could do, thanks to Turkey being a NATO member. You guys can wave at each other in Kabul and Lahore.

So, enjoy your suite, but stay inside! Hide! Ahahaha!



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Good point on Turkish....great for Star Alliance over Skyteam.


Re other points....the problem now for competitors becomes equipment. One of the reasons EK have been so successful was how we broke the 'kangaroo route' by using 77Ws over the competitions 744s. With fuel at 40% of cost, the aircraft used is crucial. It's why competing with DAL on MXP is going to take away millions in their revenue due to them using the old clapped out 767s (not to mention service a la 'sky hag' )

This latest order for an aircraft that is up to 15% more efficient that current 77Ws will add to pressure - eg the 'new' A330s that Delta bought from the French and that will presumably be used for years just cannot compete with the 777X.

Loads more to chat about but the chauffeur is here ...gotta do my commute from the sitting room to the back seat ; >

fv

PS . Anyone tell me what's the most junior DOH of a DAL 777 capt who lives in hub and the more generally what the most junior DOH of a DAL DC-9... Thanks, I'll check back later when I get to my Suite.

If you really think passengers pick an airline because of their "clapped out" seats and amenities, you are The Mayor of Toronto. There's this airline called Southwest, you may have heard of them....they are doing good against my "clapped out" 767s on Transcons.

It's about price...plain and simple.

In fact, the. Gulf 3 needs to have a cash-only option for all the goat herders they plan on flying......

What's that? 200 A380s are gonna be filled with Wall Street types? Uh huh sure Rob Ford.

 

[General Lee]

General,

I prefer Haneda over Narita so I haven't been to Narita lately. But I did see one of your 767's parked in between a 787 and 77W on the ramp at Haneda. It was looking a bit worn out.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "Your entrance into the large cities and most profitable cities in the US will be limited. Sorry." We fly to IAD, JFK, DFW, IAH, SFO, SEA, LAX, BOS is coming, and we have ORD on the freighter. Last time I lived in the US those were considered "large cities." The next step will be connecting those cities to destinations other than Dubai. EK has already stated that they are going to double the amount of US destinations over the next few years.

I also don't understand your logic when you say BHX-BOS would be good for a limited time. If it works now it will just get better with time. Once an Indian population takes root in a city they tend to expand not contract.

The 777X was built largely for Emirates. But as you say maybe Boeing was bluffing and they might just cancel all those orders and give them at a discount to the US airlines instead. I'm not sure if the big 3 could split 150 orders between them but I'm sure Boeing would do anything to make EK have to order Antonovs instead. France and Germany haven't done much to limit EK's access to the 380. Lufthansa has 10, Air France has 8, while EK has 40 with firm orders for another 100! As you would say "Good luck with that."

Delta has twice the number of HND flights as you do, and obviously a lot more NRT. I'm glad you were able to look inside the 767 from the gate, and probably see the new lie flat seats and interiors. One thing those 767s do that you don't, they fly to the USA from HND. I really really doubt Japan will ever let you do it, it would hurt ANA and JAL too. That is protectionism. Before you ask why DL can do it, Northwest actually helped build JAL after WWII. NWA was asked to fly, along with Pan Am, after WWII to help Japanese aviation grow again. Where were the Emirates back then? Never mind.

You may have a slot or gate at many of the big US cities, but your grandiose plans of multiple flights is a dream at best. Not enough room. The incumbent airlines based at those airports have a lot of say on gates and needs, and airport officials tend to listen. It's called politics. I think Kansas City should be your next pick, they may have a gate available.

Have you been to the Indian sections of BOS or BHX? If not, how do you know it could sustain a daily 777 flight? Are there rich Indians living in each city that can afford it? Btw, on a side note, those rich Indians in BHX can now fly nonstop from BHX to DEL on an Air India 788, so no need for a stop in DXB. Oh well.

The 77X is having a tough time right now, since nobody knows where it will be built. Labor in America doesn't want to be treated like laborers in the ME. So, your order could be considered "up in the air" right now..... Maybe your ruler will build a Boeing plant in DXB? That would be Fantastic! You could fly them fresh off the plant directly to Conakry. En........joy that.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[fareview]

If you really think passengers pick an airline because of their "clapped out" seats and amenities, you are The Mayor of Toronto. There's this airline called Southwest, you may have heard of them....they are doing good against my "clapped out" 767s on Transcons.

It's about price...plain and simple.

In fact, the. Gulf 3 needs to have a cash-only option for all the goat herders they plan on flying......

What's that? 200 A380s are gonna be filled with Wall Street types? Uh huh sure Rob Ford.

Price? Plain & simple huh? Not sure the Italian bankers in the 1st class suites on our MXP-JFK agree but there you go.

On Sunday Dubai based airlines ordered 311 Boeing aircraft. Great for American jobs and great for Emirates pilots particularly FOs who don't want to wait 20+ years to LHS of 777/380.

Btw, why haven't you guys answered my DAL 777 DOH questions?



fv

 

[fareview]

Delta has twice the number of HND flights as you do, and obviously a lot more NRT. I'm glad you were able to look inside the 767 from the gate, and probably see the new lie flat seats and interiors. One thing those 767s do that you don't, they fly to the USA from HND. I really really doubt Japan will ever let you do it, it would hurt ANA and JAL too. That is protectionism. Before you ask why DL can do it, Northwest actually helped build JAL after WWII. NWA was asked to fly, along with Pan Am, after WWII to help Japanese aviation grow again. Where were the Emirates back then? Never mind.

You may have a slot or gate at many of the big US cities, but your grandiose plans of multiple flights is a dream at best. Not enough room. The incumbent airlines based at those airports have a lot of say on gates and needs, and airport officials tend to listen. It's called politics. I think Kansas City should be your next pick, they may have a gate available.

Have you been to the Indian sections of BOS or BHX? If not, how do you know it could sustain a daily 777 flight? Are there rich Indians living in each city that can afford it? Btw, on a side note, those rich Indians in BHX can now fly nonstop from BHX to DEL on an Air India 788, so no need for a stop in DXB. Oh well.

The 77X is having a tough time right now, since nobody knows where it will be built. Labor in America doesn't want to be treated like laborers in the ME. So, your order could be considered "up in the air" right now..... Maybe your ruler will build a Boeing plant in DXB? That would be Fantastic! You could fly them fresh off the plant directly to Conakry. En........joy that.



Bye Bye---General Lee

I'll enjoy Conakry from the LHS over Paris from the RHS any day of the week.

If it's got a runway and it makes money, we'll be happy to fly Guineans...

fv

 

[fareview]

Interesting times ahead!


"Today, we have broken all records in civil aviation history by ordering 200 aircraft. This includes 150 Boeing 777X ? 35 Boeing 777-8Xs and 115 Boeing 777-9Xs ? plus 50 purchase rights, and an additional 50 Airbus A380 aircraft.

The total order, excluding the purchase rights, is worth an estimated US$99 billion (around Dhs364 billion) at list prices. The Boeing aircraft order is worth US$76 billion (around Dhs279 billion) and the Airbus order is worth US$23 billion (around Dhs84 billion).

Combined, it is the largest aircraft order in civil aviation history. Interestingly, our Boeing order is also the single largest aircraft order by value in the history of U.S. commercial aviation.

We now have on order 385 aircraft ? 214 Boeing 777s, 101 Airbus A380s, and 70 A350s ? at a total estimated value of US$166 billion (around Dhs610 billion). This excludes options and purchase rights.

Why are we ordering so many aircraft?

I assure you that we don?t make such big announcements to grab media headlines or to satisfy an ego trip. Our orders are backed by solid research, meticulous planning and robust financials now and in the future.

According to the International Civil Aviation Organization, three billion people travelled by air in 2012, and more than six billion people will do so by 2030. We need to be prepared for the quantum leap in air travel. You also know that we are gearing up to receive 70 million passengers by 2020.

We have one of the youngest fleets in the skies ? the average age of our aircraft is 77 months ? and we would like to maintain that status quo. It means better comfort for our customers, better maintenance and, above all, better safety.

In the medium term, we will be retiring approximately 50 aircraft in three years. Today?s order will help us replace these and grow our fleet numbers. While delivery of the newly launched 777X is scheduled to start in 2020, delivery of 25 of the A380s will begin before the first quarter of 2018. In the meantime, deliveries on our current order book will help us cater to demand.

Boeing 777s

Our 777-8X will potentially seat 342 passengers in three classes, and the 777-9X will seat over 440 passengers in two classes. With more than 131 in service, we already operate the largest fleet of 777s anywhere in the world. We are the only airline to fly all variants of the 777 family.

The 777 is the workhorse of our fleet.

Airbus A380s

As you are well aware, with 39 in service, we also currently operate the world?s largest fleet of A380s. We now have 101 A380s on order worth US$45 billion (around Dhs165 billion). The A380s in today?s order will come in two- and three-class configurations. Our A380s have been a true crowd-puller and have given us enormous advantages in terms of efficiency, economics and customer comfort.

The A380 is the flagship of our fleet.

Our long-term vision to build bridges and connect people to places and their passions is on course to becoming a reality. Tomorrow is here, and everything is possible."

Hello tomorrow

fv

 

[General Lee]

That sure will be a lot of planes flying within Africa! You WILL rule the skies there! Enjoy it! And, LHS living in the ME to Conakry is worse than RHS to Paris, while living in the US. Ask your pal TP---he's GONE, and he was initially your biggest and most well known advocate on this board and PPRUNE. The ME has just started to melt your brain, and it will continue until you leave.


Bye Bye---General Lee