NetJets Working on CASS Approval?

[172driver]

My list of airlines from decent service to horrible: JBLU, SWA, CAL, DL, AA, NW, UA, US Air.

Even if you guys have something against NJ pilots, you really ought to listen, because we are the customers that matter. Maybe not us specifically, but business travelers just like us.

I airline 8-10 times a month, usually less than 500 miles at a time, one-way, and my tickets cost between $700-1200 each. That's somewhere around $100K a year my company is spending on airlines. We are the ones keeping food on your table, not the $150 seat fillers. For those that think we should be paying more, perhaps you don't understand what we are paying or which customers keep your airline alive?

I'm not asking for special treatment. If I were, it would be because I am a good customer, not because I'm a pilot. What I am asking for is the level of service to rise for all pax. You guys don't have to experience the other side of the cockpit door enough to realize how horrifying things have gotten on some carriers.

Every week on the way home, I have a choice whether to use the ticket the company buys me, or to cancel it and apply the value toward a ticket I buy myself. If I choose not to fly on your airline because the service sucks, you just lost one of the few pax whose ticket price would have paid for the entire crew on that leg.

In these economic times, I am doing everything in my power to retain customers at my company. If you were smart you would do the same. Besides that, it's the professional thing to do, whether you work at Walmart or Delta.

It's interesting how the poor service correlates with labor problems; just look at the list. I understand the mentality because I went through an airline BK. All I can say is don't cut off your nose to spite your face.

Oh, and again, the CASS thing has nothing to do with jumpseating. It's strictly a means to get us through security faster and with less checked bags. I don't really think ALPA gives a damn, nor do I think they have a leg to stand on if they do. We go through the same background and passport checks that you do.

 

[gunfyter]

You must be a line-check airman if you airline that much... I do about $2000 to $2500 in airlining a month.

Thats maybe $30k a year. Still a lot of money gotta be one of the top Frequent Flyers of all the rest of the pax on any trip I am on.

I have had good service on CAL. I like it.

You want to stop me from getting CASS ... so I have to be gate-raped every time I go to work or go home from work? Honestly, that is the thing that sucks for us. We often get the SSSS because of the last minute tickets, one-way fare etc..

This whole thread is started because of that paranoid VOICEof INSANITY ... who thinks NJ pilots are out to destroy his life and career. After we did everything we could to help him.

 

[172driver]

Just a regular line puke...18-day schedule, short tours. That usually gives me four tours a month with the occasional mid-tour airline thrown in. I also live in one of the most expensive cities for airline tickets.

 

[Flopgut]

My list of airlines from decent service to horrible: JBLU, SWA, CAL, DL, AA, NW, UA, US Air.

Even if you guys have something against NJ pilots, you really ought to listen, because we are the customers that matter. Maybe not us specifically, but business travelers just like us.

I airline 8-10 times a month, usually less than 500 miles at a time, one-way, and my tickets cost between $700-1200 each. That's somewhere around $100K a year my company is spending on airlines. We are the ones keeping food on your table, not the $150 seat fillers. For those that think we should be paying more, perhaps you don't understand what we are paying or which customers keep your airline alive?

I'm not asking for special treatment. If I were, it would be because I am a good customer, not because I'm a pilot. What I am asking for is the level of service to rise for all pax. You guys don't have to experience the other side of the cockpit door enough to realize how horrifying things have gotten on some carriers.

Every week on the way home, I have a choice whether to use the ticket the company buys me, or to cancel it and apply the value toward a ticket I buy myself. If I choose not to fly on your airline because the service sucks, you just lost one of the few pax whose ticket price would have paid for the entire crew on that leg.

In these economic times, I am doing everything in my power to retain customers at my company. If you were smart you would do the same. Besides that, it's the professional thing to do, whether you work at Walmart or Delta.

It's interesting how the poor service correlates with labor problems; just look at the list. I understand the mentality because I went through an airline BK. All I can say is don't cut off your nose to spite your face.

Oh, and again, the CASS thing has nothing to do with jumpseating. It's strictly a means to get us through security faster and with less checked bags. I don't really think ALPA gives a damn, nor do I think they have a leg to stand on if they do. We go through the same background and passport checks that you do.

This is a nice, fair minded post. I would have agreed entirely a year ago; however, I think things are changing. NJA guys are not paying uniquely high fares any longer. It's all more the same high fares for more passengers. We've taken a lot of seats out of the market and I think that's going to continue.

I had a previous career where I dealt with premium passengers. The ones I liked the best didn't care how much it costs, they wanted the service. I understand that most of those types of customers are now with NJA. And that's fine. NJA service is demonstratively superior to an airline. Here's the deal: The airline is not the royal barge...And we're not trying to be the royal barge. We have to be secure/safe and predictable. That's it.

I would like to know how NJA pilots, or the guys running NJA would handle a customer who gripes about the service they are getting? Imagine for a second you've got a loud, semi-disgruntled customer who is disgusted with NJA service and insists he's getting screwed. This customer has bought in a certain level that is 10-25% below your most esteemed level of service. You explain that if he paid a premium fare he'd get the premium service which you know is going to make him happy and is the best you can do. But the customer won't do it. He won't cough up 25% more money and you know he has it to spend. He just keeps mocking your product and stinking up the place in front of other customers. What would NJA do?

 

[glasspilot]

Fractionals are a bit different. We don't have different tiers of service. There are bigger and faster planes, but the service is the same.

We all do have passengers that love to gripe about any myriad of things from short runways, to flow control to the crazy things like the guy who wanted a flight hour credit because we didn't have the sugar packets that he liked. Seriously.

But they all get the same level service...top notch. I have heard of owners being shown the door before though. They can quit us and we can quit them too.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

NJA service is demonstratively superior to an airline. Here's the deal: The airline is not the royal barge...And we're not trying to be the royal barge. We have to be secure/safe and predictable. That's it.

ANA's concept of service is a lot different than yours

 

[Caveman]

Seems to me the obvious solution is if a frac crew is going through security to work a flight from that airport they should go through the crew line. If they are going through security as a paying passenger they should go through normal pax screening.

If I buy a ticket to go somewhere I still have to go through passenger security screening. The fact I'm a 121 pilot is irrelevant.

 

[glasspilot]

Here's my sched:

MCO - ORD (airline) 0600 - 0830 (all times EST)

ORD to PWK cab 0900 - 0930

PWK to DEN 1030 - 1300

DEN to blah blah blah.

My company expects to get up to 14 hours of duty out of me and that starts 1 hour prior to my airline flight. Not 3 or 4 hours to accommodate insane lines at security.

I said it before. We're all pilots from the exact same stock. At the Airlines and the Fractionals we have pilots who are prior military and those who come from the commercial sector. We all operate under FARs part 121 or 135. There's not a huge difference between the two. Ones scheduled, ones on demand. Both require the same background check. Both fly for hire. Both employ professional pilots to complete the mission. Both must comply with all manor of regulations. I've done both and I have to tell you I can't tell the difference from FL370.

So to everyone I ask...

If you're an airline pilot: please help us get to where we are going. Please don't be too annoyed when we use the crew lanes. Thanks for the whole can of soda and offers of bottled water prior to push back. It's not necessary, but it's noticed and appreciated.

If you're a fractional pilot: Please stop complaining that the seat is uncomfortable or the service is substandard. It is what it is and we're just getting what the rest of America deals with day in and day out. The pilots aren't proud of it but the customers have voted with their wallets and guess what...thanks to the Internet cheap tickets sell.

My main point is we're all in the same boat. Stop throwing water on the other guys in OUR boat!

 

[Flopgut]

ANA's concept of service is a lot different than yours

At our highest service levels I think we compare favorably. If ANA had to slug it out in a domestic, low fare environment I'm not too sure they would handle it as well as US carriers have.

I do acknowledge you work for a great airline.

 

[Outta Here]

Flopgut are you stuck in predereg. when i say crappy seats i don't do it to offend you or your coworkers. The service is not what was 25 years ago. You still fly the plane the way the rest of the other 121 guys have been doing it for years.
Now how the CUSTOMERS are being treated And I use customer strongly is another story. I am gold on Delta and silver on UsAir. I point that out to show how much I airline around, not to brag. Its the fact the Airlines can't figure out how to make money and they turn that into nickel and dimming the customer and reduce quality of service. But like I said it does not reflect YOU other Pilots or FA's.
If the CASS gets approved and like I said it is not for jumpseating its for other reasons, I will be the FIRST guy to welcome ANY 121 guy aboard to go where we are ferrying!

 

[Flopgut]

Fractionals are a bit different. We don't have different tiers of service. There are bigger and faster planes, but the service is the same.

We all do have passengers that love to gripe about any myriad of things from short runways, to flow control to the crazy things like the guy who wanted a flight hour credit because we didn't have the sugar packets that he liked. Seriously.

But they all get the same level service...top notch. I have heard of owners being shown the door before though. They can quit us and we can quit them too.

Shine me on if you like, but I think we all know enough about Santulli to say he wouldn't put up with that for too long. I don't think he knows how many prima donnas he's got working for him.

Look, I'm not going to call my rep, but this is BS. This is exactly how you guys act at the gate. You want to be treated as a customer, but you also want to flip and be flight crew. What you should have done is worked to be a cadre group on the trusted traveler program. Explained to airline mgts that you are valuable customers and sought their help. No. you want to pull the "But I'm a special NJA pilot" BS and latch on to something ALPA has worked hard on. We've got enough problems without having to do your heavy lifting as well our own.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

So can airline guys just go wander around the FBO ramps? (no)

Why do NetJets guys...who always insist they are not airline crew...feel entitled to the airline crew lane as passengers?

Pick one...passenger or airline crew.

Maybe your flights would be on time more if passengers (like NJA) weren't clogging up the airline crew lane...while the crew members likely trying to get to the planes they are on are stuck in line behind them...

Don't slam airline crews in 75 different threads, then want to be considered airline crew when it suits you

 

[Voice Of Reason]

No. you want to pull the "But I'm a special NJA pilot" BS and latch on to something ALPA has worked hard on. We've got enough problems without having to do your heavy lifting as well our own.

Don't expect them to have any loyalties to anything ALPA has worked toward. IBT bankrolled them, got them their current (and likely soon to change for the worse) contract...then went and decertified the union as soon as the contract was signed.

They are Ford & Harrison's wet dream and soon enough will be put right back in their place as the joke of the industry as they were just a few years ago.

Better start begging for penance and networking now to all those you slammed during this brief periods of nouveau "riches" :laugh: ...but I'm sure the airline guys' memories are just as long as ours at Flops.

It's like a fable just playing itself out...love it. Can't wait for the moral to occur to you.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

No. you want to pull the "But I'm a special NJA pilot" BS and latch on to something ALPA has worked hard on. We've got enough problems without having to do your heavy lifting as well our own.

Don't expect them to have any loyalties to anything ALPA has worked toward. IBT bankrolled them, got them their current (and likely soon to change for the worse) contract...then went and decertified the union as soon as the contract was signed.

They are Ford & Harrison's wet dream and soon enough will be put right back in their place as the joke of the industry as they were just a few years ago.

Better start begging for penance and networking now to all those you slammed during this brief periods of nouveau "riches" :laugh: ...but I'm sure the airline guys' memories as just as long as ours at Flops.

It's like a fable just playing itself out...love it. Can't wait for the moral to occur to you.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

If the CASS gets approved and like I said it is not for jumpseating its for other reasons, I will be the FIRST guy to welcome ANY 121 guy aboard to go where we are ferrying!

You KNOW that can never happen so why even say it? You and your fake "union" can blow all the smoke you want about this, but the FACT is there isn't a frac mgt in the world that will approve it, "just in case" they need to reroute you to Canada, Mexico, or wherever else to rescue a trip.

Get real, and let it go. Lies and you KNOW it.

 

[CA1900]

Maybe your flights would be on time more if passengers (like NJA) weren't clogging up the airline crew lane...while the crew members likely trying to get to the planes they are on are stuck in line behind them...

Hahahaha... Now I've heard it all!

Yes, folks, your flight is late because of fractional pilots clogging up the employee lanes! Not because of weather or understaffing. Not because of poor schedule planning. Not because of the employee of Burger King, the news stand, the coffee shop, the guy moving 15 pallets of bottled water through the x-ray machine, the Chili's waitress coming back from her smoke break, or any of that.

No no! It's the Netjets guy going through twice a week. That's the reason your flights are late.

Don't expect them to have any loyalties to anything ALPA has worked toward.

Loyalty? That's rich, coming from the guy who vehemently defended his MEC's illegal theft of funds last year.

IBT bankrolled them

IBT didn't give us a single dollar to work with. It was funded entirely with NetJets pilot dues.

...got them their current (and likely soon to change for the worse) contract...

If by "got," you mean, "watched the Netjets pilots hire their own lawyers and subject matter experts, and pay for all of it themselves," then sure. IBT did nothing except stand idly by while we did all the work and paid all the bills.

...then went and decertified the union as soon as the contract was signed.

Absolutely right, and that was solely because of their inaction. They took millions of our dollars and provided no services for that. Further, they were spending our dues money to lobby Congress for interests, such as user fees, that are 100% opposite of our goals.

... the joke of the industry as they were just a few years ago.

Glad to see you're not still bitter.

 

[Skippy]

go pound *************************ing sand with this *************************ing thread-
absolutely not, unless we get a flowback/10 preferential hiring etc --- how many furloughed pilots have you guys hired and that will be your answer as well.

"chaamp dont want no help , he aint get no help- jive a$$ honkey aint got a job anyhow' Schit = "golly"

 

[gunfyter]

We have probably hired at least 1000 furloughed 121 pilots. Thats a guess.

 

[navigatro]

I heard that Greyhound is lobbying to gain access to CASS.

 

[gunfyter]

You'll be all set then, won't you?


I don't give a crap if we get it or not. I get paid $100 an hour overtime if a delay makes me late ... or $2000 if I miss the flight and don't get home because it takes too long to get through TSA. I got $5000 because of an airline delay once.

The company isnt getting it for us ... they are doing it for their own purposes.

 

[CA1900]

go pound *************************ing sand with this *************************ing thread-
absolutely not...

As I said, this has nothing to do with you, or with jumpseating. This is between us and the TSA.

... unless we get a flowback/10 preferential hiring etc...

Flowback? Huh?

--- how many furloughed pilots have you guys hired and that will be your answer as well.

We have a ton of furloughed guys working here. Any other questions?

 

[popgoesbubble]

So can airline guys just go wander around the FBO ramps? (no)

Why do NetJets guys...who always insist they are not airline crew...feel entitled to the airline crew lane as passengers?

Pick one...passenger or airline crew.

Maybe your flights would be on time more if passengers (like NJA) weren't clogging up the airline crew lane...while the crew members likely trying to get to the planes they are on are stuck in line behind them...

Don't slam airline crews in 75 different threads, then want to be considered airline crew when it suits you

Is it me or Does (Mouth Full of Semen) sound like a cry baby:crying: by trying to start something between the NJA Crews and the Airline crews.

For one No NJA pilot is going to non rev to work to save the company money. Secondly, most of us would never consider non reving as we all know we can't return the favor to the 121 crew. That and a lot of us are ex 121 Guys unlike yourself.

And finally (Voice/Mouth full of Semen) STFU you Little Troll I like your profile too afraid to list your flight background that's the first sign of a Troll. Your afraid someone might find out who you really are is that it?

So what's your real issue with NJA and RS in your past thread? As you highlighted his name and WB a couple times. Let me Guess you got rejected one to many times No one likes you Go home.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

We have probably hired at least 1000 furloughed 121 pilots. Thats a guess.

Yeahhh...before you guys were always saying that you don't WANT to hire airline guys because they don't know how to "provide the kind of service" your company expects...now you've got 1,000 furloughs from the majors. Dream on

 

[gunfyter]

I guess former MEC/LEC members from TWA, United, and other 121 carriers that work here now is evidence of your assertion.

 

[glasspilot]

Shine me on if you like, but I think we all know enough about Santulli to say he wouldn't put up with that for too long. I don't think he knows how many prima donnas he's got working for him.

Dude, I'm not "shining you on" or whatever. I have no idea what you're talking about. I don't even know who Santulli is. I do not work for NetJets.

I honestly don't know what you're talking about fractional pilots wanting special perks from the flight crew or in flight crew. The only "perk" that I really want is the dang crew lane at the security checkpoint. That doesn't really affect you does it?

I would like nothing more than to give rides to airline guys. Show up to my plane on a dead leg and your going. I do understand though that without a schedule that would be hard for you to get to. Maybe something could be done with an 800 number or a web site or something. Someone commented about owners not wanting their "asset" used. That's crap as I know pilots would treat the plane like gold.

Anyway, I'm not trying to dis any of you 121 guys. I rode Independence Air to the ground so I know first hand the life of the 121 side of the world.

Can't we all just get along?

 

[waveflyer]

Yeahhh...before you guys were always saying that you don't WANT to hire airline guys because they don't know how to "provide the kind of service" your company expects...now you've got 1,000 furloughs from the majors. Dream on

I think i got it- Clearly a Net Jet pilot Fuc$ked your wife.

It's ok- happens sometimes.

 

[General Lee]

If we can't get rides on Netjets, I don't think it should be allowed. I guess maybe professional traffic watch pilots in C152s are next.... It's all about give and take. In the meantime, I think it is great that Netjets pays for walkup tickets for their pilots on the airlines. That is good for the Netjet pilots anyway, since they get to keep the miles. Good for them...


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[gunfyter]

What shouldn't be allowed?

Jump seating or getting through security without being gate-raped while going to work?

 

[wolfpackpilot]

As a former 121 pilot and ALPA Representative, here are my thoughts.

1. I now work for NJI (NetJets), I do not consider myself an airline pilot, nor is my type of flying anywhere related to 121 flying. Therefore... How on earth should I, could I, would I expect to be given a 121 privilege like jumpseating?

2. My company uses the airlines to position me for work. They "PAY" for those tickets, and in return they give me the airline miles and reward status. I can use these miles to purchase free tickets. Therefore... why would I want to risk a vacation or whatever hoping for a free ride?


Airline Pilots do a certain job and receive certain benefits, and Fractional Pilots do the same. Lets not start blurring the lines here. Fractional Guys should never be allowed to jumpseat when we dont have anything to offer 121 guys in return. And 121 Guys should never get reimbursed for every single expense they incur while working... Like getting paid parking or mileage to and from your home to the airport.. .

Wolf


Merry Christmas All

 

[Dumb Pilot]

What shouldn't be allowed?

Jump seating or getting through security without being gate-raped while going to work?

This is not about we are not the same type of pilot nor should it be, this is about reciprocity plain and simple. CREW made an attempt to place their pilots that are in service with Jalways and ANA in cass so as to gain jumpseat privileges but companies in Japan do not accept jumpseaters (on line nor off line) therefore this wasn't viable for the simple fact that there couldn't be a reciprocal agreement for pilots to jumpseat on Jalways. I commute with US airlines back and forth to work, I don't expect to go through security in the crew line and I'm a 767 captain for a major international carrier, I'm sorry to bring this to your attention but when you and I commute as passengers our status is that of a passenger.