NetJets Working on CASS Approval?

[mesaserf]

For what it’s worth…

Our union policy is that if you are a 135/121 pilot then…Welcome aboard! (Flight deck access is based on CASS of course)

Just remember…the secret password is to blurt out MESA SUCKS!! As you introduce yourself to the captain. (Just Kidding)

 

[waveflyer]

umm.. i've never been on the frac board. so it's funny how you're all heated up by this. What are you doing on their board anyway?
i'm reading your posts- and for whatever reason- you have a bone to pick.
I don't. I'd love to have them participate in CASS- we offer jump agreements with helo tour guides in hawaii- how often have i used that one.The only time i've tried - the helo filled up last minute each time and i couldn't use the benefit- no big deal-
But as one of the few pilot groups who have made gains since 9/11 i'm proud of the nja guys- from what i hear- their union is good and strong- and most guys like it there. It's not for me- but i like the fact that the fracs have become a better place to work- largely b/c of the work nja pilots have done. It's good for all of us that it has become such a good job.

So ease up VOR- you're not sounding reasonable at all. And you don't speak for all major airline pilots when you say you don't want NJA in cass.

 

[PCL_128]

I stand by the fact that CASS isn't available at security checkpoints. ALPA has argued that it should be (to bypass) but they haven't gotten anywhere, since CASS isn't biometric, according to those who make decisions.

You're incorrect. CrewPass is currently being tested at three United States airports, and it uses CASS as the verifying method. ALPA would like to eliminate the need for using CASS by implementing a biometric system down the road, but that's a future goal. For now, ALPA has provided the TSA with the computers that are used at the security checkpoints for CrewPass. The initial test period was for six months, and it has been extended for at least another six months. With the new administration coming in, it will likely become permanent and expanded to all major airports.

 

[172driver]

Maybe they are working on CASS so they can be in the CrewPass program when or if it starts so they don't have to be hassled by TSA when they airline.

Bingo. We have a winner.

I don't see why ALPA would care one way or the other whether NJ pilots have to take their shoes off or bag up their cologne for the TSA. If they are in the CASS program, they have had the same passport, background, and security checks as ALPA pilots. As far as I know, security regulations are set by the airlines and the government, not ALPA.

As far as jumpseating, yes, there is an issue with reciprocation and I doubt if NJ would even ask as there's nothing in it for the company.

My question for Voice is...why do you care?

 

[Flopgut]

According to Outta here and Skiandsurf, NJA is the "dream job" and we have "crappy seats". OK. If NJA is that successful, why use the airline at all? Spare us all the discussion and stay off the airline. You have airplanes, use em!! Matter of fact, how about every 121 carrier stop selling you seats? How long is it going to stay a "dream job" then? I'll wager airlines will make more money in getting the NJA customers back than we'll lose in not selling seats to NJA pilots.

 

[Diesel]

According to Outta here and Skiandsurf, NJA is the "dream job" and we have "crappy seats". OK. If NJA is that successful, why use the airline at all? Spare us all the discussion and stay off the airline. You have airplanes, use em!! Matter of fact, how about every 121 carrier stop selling you seats? How long is it going to stay a "dream job" then? I'll wager airlines will make more money in getting the NJA customers back than we'll lose in not selling seats to NJA pilots.

The big assumption with that is that our customers will go back to the airlines. Its simple they won't. They get hooked because they pull up, their bags are loaded and we are off to wherever they want to go and when they want to go.

Us and IBM are one of the biggest ticket and hotel reservation purchasers in the world. At hotels we pay mostly rack rate except for a few high demand areas like NY, LA, and PBI. Our tickets are bought last minute, Y class (so they can be canceled when our schedule changes) and we move some serious money and crews through the airlines, but they insist on get that extra 5 dollar fee to get the window. Nice customer service.

 

[Flopgut]

Look Diesel, I'm not rooting against you. But to say things will never change is a stretch. Never is a long time. You guys gripe and bawl about your seats all the time. Here's an idea: Buy a first class seat!! We do offer a higher level of service. We just want you to pay for it, OK? I'm sure you've had a entry level customer want a GIV experience at a CE-500 price, right? Well, that's getting to be what we're seeing out of you. Airlines have taken enough capacity out of the market and the seats are selling. If it ain't you guys at full fare y class it'll be somebody else. I haven't noticed too many upgrade only types filling up FC either, so somebody is buying the seats. You want more service? Cough up more money. I think we could both agree, there's nothing worse than a fussy customer who wants more service than they pay for?

 

[JungleJett]

You want more service? Cough up more money. I think we could both agree, there's nothing worse than a fussy customer who wants more service than they pay for?

How much does being courteous cost? I saw the slow degradation of service when I was with the airlines...and it had little to do with cost. It was mostly attitude....pretty close to this. And this is why most feel that flying on the airlines is a miserable experience.

There is no law against charging more for a ticket. If you feel your product is worth more, then charge more for it. If all the airlines did that, then folks really would still be left with the same choices...except for a few more bucks. If you fly for SWA, then you are part of low fare "problem" and all the airlines look at that when operating out of cities SWA operates out of. Personally, I like SWA and would consider them one of my favorite airlines. I think the service is beyond what you pay for and they are on time a greater percentage of the time. It seems the employees really like working for the airline and it shows. But their pricing structure certainly is not helping the others.

Regardless of what you are paid, you can, at a minimum, treat people well and with respect. Most airlines are NOT doing that anymore.

 

[Brasilia Flyer]

IMHO I think that my jumpseat is for 121 airline pilots. If the PRIVILEGE get extended to fractional, then why cant private pilots use the JS as well.

Just because they are pilots does not mean that they are given the same airline benni's.

X

Good point. Don't fractionals operate under part 91? If so, there is no difference between them and other GA pilots.

 

[Flopgut]

Jungle: I hear what you're saying. And I agree, but only in part and even then it's decreasing. The mandate the airlines have to operate under since deregulation is to operate in a psuedo free market, for profit/not for profit environment where air travel is cheaper than staying at home. That's why you're sitting among retards who sh!t their pants, claw at the seats, and scream at the FAs. I would much rather that not be the case. I wish we never left regulation so I could fly around on half empty airplanes with civil customers who have money to spend. That's not the case, and you better darn well be happy about it. Because there would be no NJA. I work for CAL and we have solid inflight customer service in both cabin classes. AND, let me say with emphasis in light of what happened in Denver, our FAs do one he!! of a job evacuating a cabin!! BTW as truely extraordinary as that was, it would have gone a lot better if were not for a$$hole passengers who were trying to get their carry on luggage. You know the type, right? The kind of customer who wants their a$$ kissed instead of their a$$ saved. You were saying what about the courtesy?

 

[imacdog]

Part 135 and 91K. Part 135 companies do have air carrier certificates.

 

[Flopgut]

You know I always have wondered why the fractional guys don't volunteer as exit row occupants, or able bodied frequent flyers or the like? Seems you guys want the recognition as professional pilots, but want equal treatment as customers. AND you want to switch to whatever default you can use to either complain or chizel benefit. But in either case it's not like you try to be part of the solution. As far as being like any other huge corporate customer, if it weren't for your specific knowledge based complaints, we'd never know you were pilots...

Edit: That being said, Crewpass and CASS should only be used for persons who want to be part of improving air transportation. NJA has been around a lot of years and all they've done is be an increasing bunch of complaining customers. They want convenience they don't want to pay for with either their money or expertise. GTH guys.

 

[onthestreet]

You get your jumpseat coordinator to sign a reciprocal with my jumpseat coordinator and I'll be happy to let you on my jumpseat. It's that simple.

Getting my jumpseat coordinator to agree to a reciprocal considering your inability to actually reciprocate might be a little harder to accomplish.

But if you can convince him of your ability, go for it.

I'm happy to accommodate all professional pilots.

 

[gunfyter]

We once at Flops had it MUCH better than you guys (you know before you took us into the IBT union, then left it for your in house once you helped mgt put our company under)...and never once during that time did we treat yours or other pilots like crap or put on airs about the job you KNOW are false, just in some warped quest for respect from airline guys to finally give you "validation" (all over the boards, look it up).

This is what this is really all about. Voice wants to blame ME ... for what HE and HIS management did to HIS company.

Paranoid Hate and Discontent.

We tried to help you and I believe we still have folks trying to help.

I guess its people like YOU that thought we would negotiate a CBA FOR YOU. We suffered to get where we are now... and CONTRARY to your "never once did we treat your pilots like crap" BS statement ... The evidence is still posted on the FRAC board of all the taunting we took from YOU and others... for ALL to see... Just look for threads in 2003, 2004, early 2005.

...About how dumb we were to pay Union Dues and how Kenn was going to pay YOU whatever we got in a new CBA PLUS 10%. Yes its on the Frac board in black and white.

I get it. You hate Netjets and NJ pilots.

 

[glasspilot]

Geez VOR, why do you hate NetJets so damn much? They are pilots just like the rest of us.

I do wish we would get this reciprocity thing down as I'd love to offer first class travel to the 121 folks. In return it'd be nice if I could use the jumpseat (CASS equipped) so I could travel around myself. Jumpseating is NOT for the company to reposition you, from home or anywhere else. But it would be a great perk for any pilot.

As to your Burger King analogy...if you work for a BK with a 135 cert and you have passed the mandatory 10 year background check and your a qualified flight crew member with an ID to prove it then you should be allowed into CASS.

On the crew line front, it'll be a very sad day if I lose the ability to use crew lines to get through security. We have the same duty limitations as 121 guys. I duty on an hour before the scheduled wheels up for the flight. If I had to show up 3 or 4 hours early to get through some the the crazy lines that form then the duty time gets all screwed up. Either I have to duty on sooner, miss my flight, or show up early but duty on at the same time...thus making my true duty day off the chart and that would be dangerous.

What's the problem with pilots (of a 135 / 91K certified carrier) in uniform going through the crew line? Doesn't hurt a soul.

Lastly, it's an awful broad brush you're using when you say "NetJet pilots hate 121 guys, hate the airlines, or have some sort of "attitude"". We're all pilots from the same stock trying to get the job done safely and professionally.

Relax and stop trying to start wars...

gp

 

[imacdog]

You know I always have wondered why the fractional guys don't volunteer as exit row occupants, or able bodied frequent flyers or the like?

Some airlines charge extra for sitting in the exit row. If you want to "upgrade" us into an exit row for free then be my guest. How you run your airline is your business, why should we need to volunteer for that? Believe it or not I did assist the cabin crew yesterday on an airline flight when they had a passenger with a medical emergency situation. It was no big deal and I'm sure any other professional pilot sitting in the cabin would have done the same.

 

[gunfyter]

About 3 years ago, My FO and I were on Continental in uniform on the way to our Citation X. Someone about 10 rows ahead was in medical distress. The FA's pulled out the first aid gear.... and asked if anyone was a Doctor or paramedic.

My FO was a former Boston FD paramedic and aided the passenger until we landed.

 

[JungleJett]

Flop,

I too agree in part with what you are saying. A monster has been created by dereg...but that does not excuse the lack of simple customer service at most airlines. I was going to keep my opinions of CAL to myself but since you attacked NJA and Fracs in general, I will not.

CAL is near the top of my list for carriers I hate to fly on. Your opinion of your "solid" inflight service is not supported by my experience on COUNTLESS CAL flights. I know a TON of CAL pilots and more than a few of called to ask for my help to come over to the frac side of the business..why? The moral at CAL is tanking and it shows in the service.

But you are right...you get what you pay for and that goes for managment as well. They have clearly gotten what they paid for in some employees.

Keep doing what you are doing and I will continue to feel better about where I am now.

 

[Flopgut]

Some airlines charge extra for sitting in the exit row. If you want to "upgrade" us into an exit row for free then be my guest. How you run your airline is your business, why should we need to volunteer for that? Believe it or not I did assist the cabin crew yesterday on an airline flight when they had a passenger with a medical emergency situation. It was no big deal and I'm sure any other professional pilot sitting in the cabin would have done the same.

Here's a perfect example. You need to be upgraded?! You need something free?! You know what? Fine. You f-ing louses want to be like that? You don't need to be using Crewpass or CASS. Calling my rep now.

 

[JungleJett]

I am going to tell my mom....

Whaaaaaa

Call ALPA...maybe they can start earning the money you pay them.

What a tool...

And the FLOPGUT thing...I am sure that is not far from the truth having seen the likes of you in the terminal.

You are exactly where you belong...dudes like you are why I left the airlines.

I bet you are a '83 hire too...

 

[imacdog]

It was a factual statement. Some airlines consider the exit row an "upgrade" and charge accordingly. We as normal passengers are not entitled to free upgrades just like any other passenger, and I am not going to pay $25 of my own money to sit in an exit row. I am also going to avoid sitting in the dual exit rows that do not recline. Try not to have heartburn over it. Besides, there's nothing your rep can do about my company pursuing CASS. That's a jumpseat agreement thing; I'm sure you understand the difference. If your FAs need able-bodied assitance then I'm sure they can ask us for it, just like what happened with me yesterday.

 

[Flopgut]

Flop,

I too agree in part with what you are saying. A monster has been created by dereg...but that does not excuse the lack of simple customer service at most airlines. I was going to keep my opinions of CAL to myself but since you attacked NJA and Fracs in general, I will not.

CAL is near the top of my list for carriers I hate to fly on. Your opinion of your "solid" inflight service is not supported by my experience on COUNTLESS CAL flights. I know a TON of CAL pilots and more than a few of called to ask for my help to come over to the frac side of the business..why? The moral at CAL is tanking and it shows in the service.

But you are right...you get what you pay for and that goes for managment as well. They have clearly gotten what they paid for in some employees.

Keep doing what you are doing and I will continue to feel better about where I am now.

Well I'm going to vehemently defend my FA coworkers who are quite obviously some of the very best in the business. Safety is the ultimate customer service and we're doing that pretty darn well. Again, if it weren't for passengers with your elietest type attitude (who in this case grabbed their luggage during an evac) there would have been fewer injuries.

 

[gunfyter]

Here's a perfect example. You need to be upgraded?! You need something free?! You know what? Fine. You f-ing louses want to be like that? You don't need to be using Crewpass or CASS. Calling my rep now.

You have a rep at ARINC? Isn't that who operates CASS?

 

[fischman]

VOR is right

We at NetJets are trying to get into CASS. There are some details to be published, but until they are finalized, they will remain double-top secret. :nuts:


Seriously, VOR, you are making a mountain out of an ant hill. We are not expecting jumpseat privileges as they would be impossible to reciprocate due to 1) our inability to create a schedule, and 2) Mr. Santulli would NEVER sign off on it because we have a responsibility to the aircraft owners (our pax) to keep the airplanes pristine. How would you like it if the company that managed your $10 million asset let strangers use it whenever? I know I wouldn't.


This is no big deal.

 

[Flopgut]

It was a factual statement. Some airlines consider the exit row an "upgrade" and charge accordingly. We as normal passengers are not entitled to free upgrades just like any other passenger, and I am not going to pay $25 of my own money to sit in an exit row. I am also going to avoid sitting in the dual exit rows that do not recline. Try not to have heartburn over it. Besides, there's nothing your rep can do about my company pursuing CASS. That's a jumpseat agreement thing; I'm sure you understand the difference. If your FAs need able-bodied assitance then I'm sure they can ask us for it, just like what happened with me yesterday.

So you're not going to cough up $25 bucks for extra service/comfort, but you're going to cry and complain if you're not made to feel special? Fine. Take your coach seat and STFU.

My rep will call ALPA National. ALPA National can explain to oversight that what you guys are doing is dilluting a legitimate program for personal/corporate gain. AND, despite the fact you've been around for years and are in the transportation business, you've not lifted a finger to try to be a helpful hand.

 

[gunfyter]

Flopgut,

You might want to search the ALPA website for Netjets and enforcement of Duty and Rest regulations.

March 14, 1991

Part of the reason Reserve Rest got squared away....

and

I know that about 90% of Hilton Honors Diamond members are Netjets pilots. We stay in hotels more than we airline but most NJ pilots have Elite status in multiple FF programs ... so according to the airlines ... we are Elite. I do most of my airlines on SWA, Continental, and American.

We are paying plenty of money on Full Fare one-way tickets purchased day before and day of travel.... thus leading to the SSSS TSA strip search.

 

[glasspilot]

Hey Flop, you need to get laid, or kick the dog or something.

No one needs to "feel special". And it's a bit of a personal choice weather or not to spend ones own money for extra service / comfort as you say. I think it's pretty cheap to charge for it but I defend any airlines right to charge whatever they think the market will bear for any service or goods.

Know what would make me happy? Get off the God D@mn PA! It's only your ego forcing us to listen to the temp / dew point and which way the wind is blowing at 5 kts. And if you're flying something with an entertainment system that goes double. You must realize that when you key the mike everyone who was reading, or having a conversation, or watching tv has to stop and listen to your incoherent dribble about things that don't matter. If you must say something then how about just saying, "welcome aboard, your name, and what time we're going to get to the gate". That's it. Nothing more. Then take your own advise and STFU.

 

[Flopgut]

I am going to tell my mom....

Whaaaaaa

Call ALPA...maybe they can start earning the money you pay them.

What a tool...

And the FLOPGUT thing...I am sure that is not far from the truth having seen the likes of you in the terminal.

You are exactly where you belong...dudes like you are why I left the airlines.

I bet you are a '83 hire too...

Sure, ALPA may not be able to do anything. But I'm making the call anyway.

I'm so not hired in '83. That's fine though, shoot first, ask questions later.

Have fun over there. I know it's a good deal. All I'm saying is if you aren't going to help make our job easier/safer just don't try to make it harder.

 

[CA1900]

Despite the inflammatory headline, this has nothing to do with the majors or jumpseating. And it certainly has nothing to do with ALPA, of which we are not members nor do we have any interest in joining.

This is between NetJets -- a certificated air carrier -- and TSA. It doesn't involve you in any way.

 

[Flopgut]

Hey Flop, you need to get laid, or kick the dog or something.

No one needs to "feel special". And it's a bit of a personal choice weather or not to spend ones own money for extra service / comfort as you say. I think it's pretty cheap to charge for it but I defend any airlines right to charge whatever they think the market will bear for any service or goods.

Know what would make me happy? Get off the God D@mn PA! It's only your ego forcing us to listen to the temp / dew point and which way the wind is blowing at 5 kts. And if you're flying something with an entertainment system that goes double. You must realize that when you key the mike everyone who was reading, or having a conversation, or watching tv has to stop and listen to your incoherent dribble about things that don't matter. If you must say something then how about just saying, "welcome aboard, your name, and what time we're going to get to the gate". That's it. Nothing more. Then take your own advise and STFU.

I say very little on the PA. But that's not going to stop, some guys like to jabber on there.

I am stunned at the level of a$$holeness I see here on the airfares and paying for service. With all that's been said, this is still no less true: you guys gripe and complain about your seats and service when you're in coach. Buy a FC seat toolbags!! It's no different than the idiots I have to fly around that think they own the plane. If I get a real fussy customer I remind them that they can go and charter a plane for themselves. So I'll tell you the same thing. Don't gripe about service you didn't pay for. Period. We sell that, get your wallet out!

Years ago Bethune was in the terminal at EWR. There was a passenger that would not stop griping him out about a late flight. Finally Gordon asked him what he paid for the ticket. (I think it was around $400 dollars) Gordon got $400 out of his wallet and handed it to him and took his ticket, then told him to go find another airline.

Look, we (CAL) are not the be all, end all in customer service. But you compare 4 grand for a transcon on CAL vs. 40 grand on you guys, we're a pretty good deal. (that's about first class fare) I'd like to do the same thing Gordon did to all you guys. Give you your money back, take your ticket, and see how well you could run that outfit.