NetJets Unrest Puts Warren Buffett in a Rare Pinch

[G4dude]

I'm not riling anyone up. The company has already done that.

I'm asking you questions. Questions you can't seem to answer. Questions you don't want to deal with.

You go back to the same old line of union thuggery.

I'm not just randomly choosing hardline statements. I'm asking you why is the company demanding this but you don't acknowledge it.

Keep riding that fence. Your theories have been proving wrong at every step and your only argument is you're getting bullied. You can't even support your own talking points.

You should be fired up. You should be disgusted that the company wants to destroy your benefits, reduce your pay, increase your work hours and decrease your time off.

But hey let everyone else do the heavy lifting for you.

See you at the Vue.

They want us to work harder and take less pay and benefits. We want to make more and work less. Why get angry during the early negotiations? Lets keep bargaining and lets see what the final product is that we can vote on. I don't understand getting angry. Of COURSE they want to give us less compensation. We want to make more, should that make the company mad at us? Grow up. It is not "disgusting" for the company to try to compensate us less. its not "disgusting" for us to want to be compensated more. The bargaining process is always this way. All we care about is the contract offer we vote on.

 

[T-1GUY]

They want us to work harder and take less pay and benefits. We want to make more and work less. Why get angry during the early negotiations? Lets keep bargaining and lets see what the final product is that we can vote on. I don't understand getting angry. Of COURSE they want to give us less compensation. We want to make more, should that make the company mad at us? Grow up. It is not "disgusting" for the company to try to compensate us less. its not "disgusting" for us to want to be compensated more. The bargaining process is always this way. All we care about is the contract offer we vote on.

The bargaining process is not always this way. Once again you show your ignorance on the matter. Please reference IBB 2007.

 

[Diesel]

They want us to work harder and take less pay and benefits. We want to make more and work less. Why get angry during the early negotiations? Lets keep bargaining and lets see what the final product is that we can vote on. I don't understand getting angry. Of COURSE they want to give us less compensation. We want to make more, should that make the company mad at us? Grow up. It is not "disgusting" for the company to try to compensate us less. its not "disgusting" for us to want to be compensated more. The bargaining process is always this way. All we care about is the contract offer we vote on.

Again enlighten us with your experience of negotiations. Please list all the union shops you worked for and what contracts that you have worked through.

The answer is 0. You have no experience in this landscape yet your coming here explaining to us how YOU think it should work.

So regale us with all your union experience and negotiation history. All of us can't wait to hear the depth of your experience as you seem to post here with such authority.

 

[G4dude]

Again enlighten us with your experience of negotiations. Please list all the union shops you worked for and what contracts that you have worked through.

The answer is 0. You have no experience in this landscape yet your coming here explaining to us how YOU think it should work.

So regale us with all your union experience and negotiation history. All of us can't wait to hear the depth of your experience as you seem to post here with such authority.

You are right. I have, however, seen plenty of union/management negotiations through the years, and have spent hours with ex Eastern pilots, one of whom was on the Strike Committee. The things they told me about union malfeasance would curl the hair of any normal person. And how the union would drum up anger in order to manipulate the group. One would think pilots were smarter than that, but I guess not. But you are right. This is my first personal rodeo with a union, and NJASAP seems to do a good job, but the emotional negotiating process and the "embarass Warren" campaign worries me and many of my colleagues on the doughty Guffstreams. On a side topic, maybe Warren will sell us to Santulli. I think that would be cool.

 

[Diesel]

You are right. I have, however, seen plenty of union/management negotiations through the years, and have spent hours with ex Eastern pilots, one of whom was on the Strike Committee. The things they told me about union malfeasance would curl the hair of any normal person. And how the union would drum up anger in order to manipulate the group. One would think pilots were smarter than that, but I guess not. But you are right. This is my first personal rodeo with a union, and NJASAP seems to do a good job, but the emotional negotiating process and the "embarass Warren" campaign worries me and many of my colleagues on the doughty Guffstreams. On a side topic, maybe Warren will sell us to Santulli. I think that would be cool.

So that's clear you have no union experience. Your experience is hearing some war stories about one of the most famous strikes in aviation. If we were all able to be experts based on bar talk I'd be an surgeon after spending many hours with my dad. In the end though talk is not experience.

Glad we cleared that up. You're a pilot that is talking from no union experience but acting like an expert because you are offended.

Have you volunteered for the union at all to learn more?
Have you logged into the union messageboard?
Are you receiving the weekly updates from the union? Are you reading it?
Are you staying informed?
Are you a dues payer or a fees payer?
Have you read the fud book that is for sale?

You can't be spoonfed your whole life. I know it's the easy path but maybe you should take some time and get some education.

You're quick to jump on the union but only because it offends you. Not due to experience.

 

[G4dude]

So that's clear you have no union experience. Your experience is hearing some war stories about one of the most famous strikes in aviation. If we were all able to be experts based on bar talk I'd be an surgeon after spending many hours with my dad. In the end though talk is not experience.

Glad we cleared that up. You're a pilot that is talking from no union experience but acting like an expert because you are offended.

Have you volunteered for the union at all to learn more?
Have you logged into the union messageboard?
Are you receiving the weekly updates from the union? Are you reading it?
Are you staying informed?
Are you a dues payer or a fees payer?
Have you read the fud book that is for sale?

You can't be spoonfed your whole life. I know it's the easy path but maybe you should take some time and get some education.

You're quick to jump on the union but only because it offends you. Not due to experience.

I disagree with the union tactics and the behavior of the goons like you. You are a well known union activist, with whom I have many disagreements. I pay dues. I have been on the union message board, and thought it sophomoric and rather embarassing. I fly for NJA, and am reasonably informed for that reason. What really frosts you is that I actually will come a board and disagree with you. You are not used to that and react vehemently and crassly, which is normal for goons. The union updates read like a propoganda brochure from some street corner anarchist group. I don't disagree with you because I am uninformed, but because I have the same knowledge as you but have come to different conclusions. The War Stories you refer to? They were gut wrenching stories from guys whose careers had been seriously damaged by the Machinists Union at Eastern. Did you know some of the Eastern pilots met with Borman secretly to offer the union's help in fighting the machinists? He turned them down, thought he could manage without the huge fracture that would result from one union fighting another.

 

[Diesel]

I don't care that you disagree with me. That is what makes life interesting. What I do care is that your view is so myopic and so focused on hating the union that you don't see the big picture. You say everything the union does is sophomoric, but you don't reference anything the company does.

Your experience in unions and negotiations is nil except for a few eastern friends. When called out on it you attack the thug lifestyle, but it's you who inflame on a anonymous messagboard. You won't express your views at the vue in savannah.

We come to different conclusions because I have the experience and background that this story has already been written once. You come to your conclusions because you have no experience in these matters. You have nothing to draw from. Do you think 3000 pilots are all wrong and you're the only guy right?

I'm a well known anybody. I'm not an activist I'm a volunteer. I'm making sure that our new contract is something to be proud of. You're a fence sitter who talks about crossing a picket line on an anonymous message board. I've never once heard you say that your plan in the company of pilots. I'll be sure to ask you about it next time I see you.

Nothing frosts me, especially someone that is using anonymity to voice their argument which they haven't been able to answer one question about.

Will we see you picketing in Omaha? If you are working I hope that you will support your brothers and sisters by paying for s flight or hotel room for them. Will you be doing that?

 

[G4dude]

I don't care that you disagree with me. That is what makes life interesting. What I do care is that your view is so myopic and so focused on hating the union that you don't see the big picture. You say everything the union does is sophomoric, but you don't reference anything the company does.

Your experience in unions and negotiations is nil except for a few eastern friends. When called out on it you attack the thug lifestyle, but it's you who inflame on a anonymous messagboard. You won't express your views at the vue in savannah.

We come to different conclusions because I have the experience and background that this story has already been written once. You come to your conclusions because you have no experience in these matters. You have nothing to draw from. Do you think 3000 pilots are all wrong and you're the only guy right?

I'm a well known anybody. I'm not an activist I'm a volunteer. I'm making sure that our new contract is something to be proud of. You're a fence sitter who talks about crossing a picket line on an anonymous message board. I've never once heard you say that your plan in the company of pilots. I'll be sure to ask you about it next time I see you.

Nothing frosts me, especially someone that is using anonymity to voice their argument which they haven't been able to answer one question about.

Will we see you picketing in Omaha? If you are working I hope that you will support your brothers and sisters by paying for s flight or hotel room for them. Will you be doing that?

I post anonymously precisely because union goons, maybe not you, would mistreat me if they knew who I am. I will NOT picket in Omaha, not because I don't want us to get a good deal, but because I think it is the wrong tactic. I want the same thing you want, but feel the union tactics will backfire. I care about our "brothers and sisters" just as much as you do. BTW, you pretend that I am the only pro free market guy at NJA, and I KNOW you know better, because you are on the Guffstream too. A lot of pilots here agree with me, they just don't have the intestinal fortitude (UNDERSTANDABLY) to post here or elsewhere. Because of the vitriol from the goons. Also, I express my views all the time to my fellow pilots, and they do the same with me. At the Vue and elsewhere.

 

[G4dude]

I don't care that you disagree with me. That is what makes life interesting. What I do care is that your view is so myopic and so focused on hating the union that you don't see the big picture. You say everything the union does is sophomoric, but you don't reference anything the company does.

Your experience in unions and negotiations is nil except for a few eastern friends. When called out on it you attack the thug lifestyle, but it's you who inflame on a anonymous messagboard. You won't express your views at the vue in savannah.

We come to different conclusions because I have the experience and background that this story has already been written once. You come to your conclusions because you have no experience in these matters. You have nothing to draw from. Do you think 3000 pilots are all wrong and you're the only guy right?

I'm a well known anybody. I'm not an activist I'm a volunteer. I'm making sure that our new contract is something to be proud of. You're a fence sitter who talks about crossing a picket line on an anonymous message board. I've never once heard you say that your plan in the company of pilots. I'll be sure to ask you about it next time I see you.

Nothing frosts me, especially someone that is using anonymity to voice their argument which they haven't been able to answer one question about.

Will we see you picketing in Omaha? If you are working I hope that you will support your brothers and sisters by paying for s flight or hotel room for them. Will you be doing that?

In order to cool the rhetoric a little, I want to say this. You are passionate and sincere in what you believe. I just wish you could give people like me credit for being the same.

 

[G4dude]

Ready for another union goon story? When the previous negotiations were going hot and heavy, two of my colleagues, in separate incidents, saw NJA pilots begin their preflight by turning on the landing/taxi lights. Then go inside for a while, coming out later to write up the broken bulb and grounding the plane.

 

[Diesel]

I post anonymously precisely because union goons, maybe not you, would mistreat me if they knew who I am. I will NOT picket in Omaha, not because I don't want us to get a good deal, but because I think it is the wrong tactic. I want the same thing you want, but feel the union tactics will backfire. I care about our "brothers and sisters" just as much as you do. BTW, you pretend that I am the only pro free market guy at NJA, and I KNOW you know better, because you are on the Guffstream too. A lot of pilots here agree with me, they just don't have the intestinal fortitude (UNDERSTANDABLY) to post here or elsewhere. Because of the vitriol from the goons. Also, I express my views all the time to my fellow pilots, and they do the same with me. At the Vue and elsewhere.

What experience do you have to say that Omaha will backfire and that this is the wrong tactic?

What experience do you have that says this method is wrong? Why do you insist on calling your fellow union brothers and sisters goons but do not acknowledge what the company has said to the pilots it holds in such high regards?

I don't think your assessment of the pilots is accurate anymore. I think in the beginning sure it was but now these pilots have seen the same loss of hotels and benefits and the continual erosion.

So no I think the majority that was anti union are changing to the minority. They are seeing what you aren't seeing that the company propaganda and the letters, the threats, the firings. That is the real thug style because they are playing with pilots lives, and their families, relationships.

I wouldn't call you posting on anonymous message board intestinal fortitude. Anybody can do it. If hiding behind a screen name is having balls.....lol

 

[tk855]

Ready for another union goon story? When the previous negotiations were going hot and heavy, two of my colleagues, in separate incidents, saw NJA pilots begin their preflight by turning on the landing/taxi lights. Then go inside for a while, coming out later to write up the broken bulb and grounding the plane.

Bullsh!T! Prove it or keep your fabricated, chickens$t lies to yourself!

 

[G4dude]

Bullsh!T! Prove it or keep your fabricated, chickens$t lies to yourself!

Oops, didn't read your post carefully enough.

 

[G4dude]

Bullsh!T! Prove it or keep your fabricated, chickens$t lies to yourself!

Sorry, I didn't read your post carefully enough, and cited a story you were not referencing. Same answer, however, Both stories about the landing lights were told to me by my fellow pilots, first hand accounts of what they saw.

 

[G4dude]

What experience do you have to say that Omaha will backfire and that this is the wrong tactic?

What experience do you have that says this method is wrong? Why do you insist on calling your fellow union brothers and sisters goons but do not acknowledge what the company has said to the pilots it holds in such high regards?

I don't think your assessment of the pilots is accurate anymore. I think in the beginning sure it was but now these pilots have seen the same loss of hotels and benefits and the continual erosion.

So no I think the majority that was anti union are changing to the minority. They are seeing what you aren't seeing that the company propaganda and the letters, the threats, the firings. That is the real thug style because they are playing with pilots lives, and their families, relationships.

I wouldn't call you posting on anonymous message board intestinal fortitude. Anybody can do it. If hiding behind a screen name is having balls.....lol

I have quite a bit of management experience, and feel the tactics against Warren will not end well for us. Its just my opinion, and I could be wrong. Regarding intestinal fortitude, it is rather unpleasant for someone like me to post on any message boards, because union believers are so aggressive and think we are BAD people for believing in individual bargaining and market forces, who worry about pricing our employer out of the marketplace. We don't mind the disagreement and the good conversations that should result from them, but the vitriol gets really old.

 

[nordo_2]

You are right. I have, however, seen plenty of union/management negotiations through the years, and have spent hours with ex Eastern pilots, one of whom was on the Strike Committee. The things they told me about union malfeasance would curl the hair of any normal person. And how the union would drum up anger in order to manipulate the group. One would think pilots were smarter than that, but I guess not. But you are right. This is my first personal rodeo with a union, and NJASAP seems to do a good job, but the emotional negotiating process and the "embarass Warren" campaign worries me and many of my colleagues on the doughty Guffstreams. On a side topic, maybe Warren will sell us to Santulli. I think that would be cool.

Interesting, you example a strike that took place over twenty years ago. How about the Spirit strike. How did that turn out for those guys? That one is a little more recent.

 

[G4dude]

My favorite union story? A friend of mine used to be a railroad worker. The union, every so often, would pull a loaded car to the side and loot it. Another friend, a colleague at NJA, used to work in a factory where the union forced the company to hire 6 cleaners for a job requiring one, having them rotate from the break room. This is called featherbedding, and it is deadly and immoral. Brought to you by your friendly coercive intimidating union. NJASAP is not like that, and they seem to do a pretty good job, which is a good argument for in- house unions.

 

[Diesel]

I have quite a bit of management experience, and feel the tactics against Warren will not end well for us. Its just my opinion, and I could be wrong. Regarding intestinal fortitude, it is rather unpleasant for someone like me to post on any message boards, because union believers are so aggressive and think we are BAD people for believing in individual bargaining and market forces, who worry about pricing our employer out of the marketplace. We don't mind the disagreement and the good conversations that should result from them, but the vitriol gets really old.

Wow you have a bit of management experience. Amazing. That makes you a total expert on the subject of what we are doing.

How about you get on board with your union brothers and sisters. You're in a union now. Or if you feel strong enough about your feelings and don't tell anyone in public become a fees payer? Oh wait you want the union protection but you don't like how the sausage is made. Lol

In the end your opinion has no basis in reality. You have no experience. You have no plan other than to hope the demand outweighs the supply. You won't support your union. You have said you might/will cross a picket. But think it would be mean for people to shun you for doing so.

Pretty much sums up you want your cake and eat it too.

 

[G4dude]

Interesting, you example a strike that took place over twenty years ago. How about the Spirit strike. How did that turn out for those guys? That one is a little more recent.

That strike worked out fine. I'm hoping, if NJA strikes, that it will be beneficial. I'm just worried. To be fair, the Eastern situation was a really poisonous case of an exceptionally aggressive Machinists Union. Nothing like NJASAP, thank goodness.

 

[T-1GUY]

You worry too much...

 

[Diesel]

That strike worked out fine. I'm hoping, if NJA strikes, that it will be beneficial. I'm just worried. To be fair, the Eastern situation was a really poisonous case of an exceptionally aggressive Machinists Union. Nothing like NJASAP, thank goodness.

You're hoping. That's your game plan. Ufb.

You won't do any of the heavy lifting. You won't volunteer. You won't be in Omaha. You won't be engaged. You won't fly the contract and you won't honor a picket line.

Explain to all of us just exactly what your willing to do to help us get a contract.

Because all I see is a weak dick hiding behind the union thuggery tag line to justify your inaction and your excuses.

 

[T-1GUY]

My favorite union story? A friend of mine used to be a railroad worker. The union, every so often, would pull a loaded car to the side and loot it. Another friend, a colleague at NJA, used to work in a factory where the union forced the company to hire 6 cleaners for a job requiring one, having them rotate from the break room. This is called featherbedding, and it is deadly and immoral. Brought to you by your friendly coercive intimidating union. NJASAP is not like that, and they seem to do a pretty good job, which is a good argument for in- house unions.

My favorite story is how Andrew Carnegie via Henry Frick hired the pinkertons to keep his factory workers from striking. Carnegie wanted to be the richest man in the world so he hired Frick to increase production. Frick demanded the workers produce twenty percent more and take a paycut all for the sake of Carnegies ego. When the workers decided to protest and strike, the pinkertons were ordered to break the strike. They did this by shooting and killing nine workers. That is what management would do if they felt they could get away with it. You stand on the wrong side of the fence in this fight.

 

[flexpilot]

Ready for another union goon story? When the previous negotiations were going hot and heavy, two of my colleagues, in separate incidents, saw NJA pilots begin their preflight by turning on the landing/taxi lights. Then go inside for a while, coming out later to write up the broken bulb and grounding the plane.

I don't believe it. Not sure why you would want to spread a second hand story. Something you did not observe yourself.

This spreading of second hand unsubstantiated information is widely known as a RUMOR!

rumor
ˈro͞omər/Submit
noun
1.
a currently circulating story or report of uncertain or doubtful truth.
"they were investigating rumors of a massacre"
synonyms: gossip, hearsay, talk, tittle-tattle, speculation, word; More
verb
past participle: rumoured; past participle: rumored; verb: rumour; 3rd person present: rumours; gerund or present participle: rumouring; verb: rumor; 3rd person present: rumors; gerund or present participle: rumoring
1.
be circulated as an unverified account.
"it's rumored that he lives on a houseboat"

 

[993_Pilot]

Hey G4dude, I will bet you that for every union featherbedding abuse story you can find, I bet the union supporters here on FI could come up with at least two stories of management abuse. Witness Avantair. Care to accept my challenge???

 

[G4dude]

Hey G4dude, I will bet you that for every union featherbedding abuse story you can find, I bet the union supporters here on FI could come up with at least two stories of management abuse. Witness Avantair. Care to accept my challenge???

Oh, I am NO admirer of our management. In fact, I am working on a plan to leave NJA because I am so sick of CMH. Jordan and the shysters and the accountants and the nit picking drive me nuts. You are right, there are stories on both sides. Remember, I feel in-house unions are MUCH better than third party unions, and may even be necessary. I am just concerned our tactics won't bring the desired results. That, once again, does NOT mean I don't want the same better contract that you all want. I believe fear of losing good pilots who can't be replaced, along with firm confidential communications with Jordan, will work better than the informational picketing and the "embarrass Warren" ad in the Wall Street Journal.

 

[G4dude]

I don't believe it. Not sure why you would want to spread a second hand story. Something you did not observe yourself.

This spreading of second hand unsubstantiated information is widely known as a RUMOR!

rumor
ˈro͞omər/Submit
noun
1.
a currently circulating story or report of uncertain or doubtful truth.
"they were investigating rumors of a massacre"
synonyms: gossip, hearsay, talk, tittle-tattle, speculation, word; More
verb
past participle: rumoured; past participle: rumored; verb: rumour; 3rd person present: rumours; gerund or present participle: rumouring; verb: rumor; 3rd person present: rumors; gerund or present participle: rumoring
1.
be circulated as an unverified account.
"it's rumored that he lives on a houseboat"

They told me these stories, one of the pilots was backed up by the flight attendant who saw it too. Sorry, that's what they told me. They were pretty mad about it. If you can't believe it, that probably means you are one of the vast majority of good guys, which is to your credit.

 

[G4dude]

My favorite story is how Andrew Carnegie via Henry Frick hired the pinkertons to keep his factory workers from striking. Carnegie wanted to be the richest man in the world so he hired Frick to increase production. Frick demanded the workers produce twenty percent more and take a paycut all for the sake of Carnegies ego. When the workers decided to protest and strike, the pinkertons were ordered to break the strike. They did this by shooting and killing nine workers. That is what management would do if they felt they could get away with it. You stand on the wrong side of the fence in this fight.

There are lots of very bad management stories. Bad stories on both sides. Pity. Its a rough world out there. Speaking of really old stories...

 

[G4dude]

You're hoping. That's your game plan. Ufb.

You won't do any of the heavy lifting. You won't volunteer. You won't be in Omaha. You won't be engaged. You won't fly the contract and you won't honor a picket line.

Explain to all of us just exactly what your willing to do to help us get a contract.

Because all I see is a weak dick hiding behind the union thuggery tag line to justify your inaction and your excuses.

You are continuing to confirm what my friends have told me about you. A rather unpleasant man with absolute contempt for anyone who disagrees with you.

 

[G4dude]

Wow you have a bit of management experience. Amazing. That makes you a total expert on the subject of what we are doing.

How about you get on board with your union brothers and sisters. You're in a union now. Or if you feel strong enough about your feelings and don't tell anyone in public become a fees payer? Oh wait you want the union protection but you don't like how the sausage is made. Lol

In the end your opinion has no basis in reality. You have no experience. You have no plan other than to hope the demand outweighs the supply. You won't support your union. You have said you might/will cross a picket. But think it would be mean for people to shun you for doing so.

Pretty much sums up you want your cake and eat it too.

My wife is laughing at your posts. She keeps asking, "Who is this idiot?"

 

[Helmsalee]

G4,
I think she might be talking to you.
Helm