NetJets Unrest Puts Warren Buffett in a Rare Pinch

[Usual Suspect]

So many posts are base upon the logic "he has soooooo much money he should pay us more". That is a very poor premise and outnumbers all others probably 10 to 1.

Funny, any time I wanted a raise I went to my superiors and my basis was always "I should be paid more because ..... I am valuable because ... I do a better job because .... I can make you more money because .... I make the company better because...." My team members who want raises come to me with similar logic. I have never said "you should pay me more because you have so much money and wouldn't notice it" or something similar. But that is the overwhelming position not only on this board, but in the public campaign. It is all based upon NJA's $$.

The pilots know I support them. But the argument, position and strategy being employed is not one of strength and productivity but one of entitlement. Please don't shower me with messages about how productive you are, etc. - while that is true and I agree - that is NOT the emphasis of YOUR campaign and NOT the issue which the union is communicating to the owners. Maybe the union show have a survey company poll a demographic similar to the owners (like marketing companies regularly do) and see if the campaign is effective and communicating the proper message? If there is a "gaol sheet" of the objectives of the campaign, I seriously doubt they are being accomplished as far as the owners are concerned.

I think you're misinformed. When we say that NJA can afford to pay the pilots more, we're merely rebutting the company's claim. Right out of the gate, when the company decided to open contract negotiations, the first thing they demanded was pay cuts, more work for that lower wage, more for health insurance, etc. The reason they gave was that they needed to give BH a higher return. So you see, they are the ones that started the whole "you need to take pay cuts so we can increase BH's profit from 30 billion to 30.1 billion" nonsense.

The pilots never went to them and said "you should pay me more because you have so much money and wouldn't notice it" as you said above. We're merely sweeping aside their absurd demand that we take pay cuts when they tell recurrent classes how much money the company is making, how great sales are, how they had to raise prices on marquis cards because they're selling so many of them and BH's quarterly reports show that NJA is making lots of money.

If you're getting a different message than that, then I agree with your comment about the message needing some clarification. It's hard to explain all that on a picket sign.

 

[Hawker dude]

How about huge signs and billboards that essentially just say GREED. That is not boasting your attributes. The message you think you are sending and what is being received are 2 very different things. Quite common in the business world -- marketing people and PR firms spend a lot of time refining message to make sure they are effective.

why do you come back?

I have watched the boards for a long time, and you were gone.

now you are back

i don't believe you are an owner and i think you are full of ********************

and you really do not understand business, you are clearly an uneducated pilot

 

[Hawker dude]

I am many things, but an idiot? Sorry, no. Are you trying to gently suggest we disagree on a few points?

yes we disagree. i have watched what you say on the boards. you are clearly a management guy. you talk down to people and play them like they are stupid. we are not. and you should go back into the hole you came from.

 

[NJAowner]

Hawker dude - believe what you want. What is the "long time" I was gone ... Maybe a few weeks. Believe it or not, and beside the fact that this site is both informative and entertaining, I think many of you have real misperceptions about owners and life on the other side (for many, not all). I actually support the pilots, think you guys are great and deserve more, but just think the the attitude of many and then way you are trying to accomulish your goals is, at times, both out of touch and ineffective. I don't mean that to be insulting - but look back at years of my posts which are both supportive of the pilots and providing insight on how to accomplish your goals.

 

[T-1GUY]

Was the union not ready/willing/wanting to extend the current deal back before all this started? Why then were willing to accept "40% less than your peers". To my knowledge NJ also does not make 100s of millions of dollars per quarter like the majors, so comparing pay to them is apples and oranges (strictly talking revenue stream, not skillset) Not to mention the vastly different financial/operating structure.[/QUOTE

Why would any professional pilot not compare their wages to other pilot jobs that they are qualified for? The apple to apple comparison IS the SKILL SET and what is a competitive wage for that SKILL SET. I chose to take my SKILL SET to another employer that compensates me fairly for my experience. It just so happens to be a lot more than a 40% increase in compensation. Funny thing is I still fly the same approaches into the same airports. I talk to the same ATC. I don't clean the airplane. I don't lift bags for pax. I don't stock airplanes. I work shorter trips and have more time off at the hotel.

I think if you applied COLA increases to the Netjets wage tables since the signing of the contract in 2007 it would be quite a sizable raise with the SAME buying power. I personally was not happy with the contract as I always felt underpaid. However, my UNION was still working on getting to a mature contract.

Remember when RTS said "The pilots could of got more"?

Try reviewing the financial results of Netjets over the last few years.

You need to educate yourself...

 

[jonjuan]

why do you come back?

I have watched the boards for a long time, and you were gone.

now you are back

i don't believe you are an owner and i think you are full of ********************

and you really do not understand business, you are clearly an uneducated pilot

yep-not an owner. pretty funny that he/shes hoodwinked so many on here for so long.

 

[msculley6905]

Was the union not ready/willing/wanting to extend the current deal back before all this started? Why then were willing to accept "40% less than your peers". To my knowledge NJ also does not make 100s of millions of dollars per quarter like the majors, so comparing pay to them is apples and oranges (strictly talking revenue stream, not skillset) Not to mention the vastly different financial/operating structure.[/QUOTE

Why would any professional pilot not compare their wages to other pilot jobs that they are qualified for? The apple to apple comparison IS the SKILL SET and what is a competitive wage for that SKILL SET. I chose to take my SKILL SET to another employer that compensates me fairly for my experience. It just so happens to be a lot more than a 40% increase in compensation. Funny thing is I still fly the same approaches into the same airports. I talk to the same ATC. I don't clean the airplane. I don't lift bags for pax. I don't stock airplanes. I work shorter trips and have more time off at the hotel.

I think if you applied COLA increases to the Netjets wage tables since the signing of the contract in 2007 it would be quite a sizable raise with the SAME buying power. I personally was not happy with the contract as I always felt underpaid. However, my UNION was still working on getting to a mature contract.

Remember when RTS said "The pilots could of got more"?

Try reviewing the financial results of Netjets over the last few years.

You need to educate yourself...

Good points, although I consider myself fairly educated in the matter already. My point was simply that quarterly revenue, from what I read (243m from a november article), are not that of a major airline (DL ~11B, WN ~4B..and yes, i know their costs are also dramatically higher than ours, just on fuel alone). If they were, then by all means I would expect a similar if not better contract. We just simply don't turn as large of profits as they do..not even close.

 

[G4dude]

yes we disagree. i have watched what you say on the boards. you are clearly a management guy. you talk down to people and play them like they are stupid. we are not. and you should go back into the hole you came from.

I just fly the planes. Ask Gutshotdraw and ACATerry, they know me. You think I am some kind of weird capitalist grinder in the faces of widows and orphans? Most of the pilots I fly with agree with me. At least 80 percent, in my unofficial estimation. They just don't post on sites like this. Too much acrimony.
This "embarassing Warren" campaign will not end well, I'm afraid. Unless Berkshire selling us would be a good thing. Maybe it would. I'm just worried.

 

[T-1GUY]

Mcsulley,

The size of the operation does not set the wage for the skill set. You would just need a greater number of pilots.

 

[pilotyip]

I just fly the planes. Ask Gutshotdraw and ACATerry, they know me. You think I am some kind of weird capitalist grinder in the faces of widows and orphans? Most of the pilots I fly with agree with me. At least 80 percent, in my unofficial estimation. They just don't post on sites like this. Too much acrimony.
This "embarassing Warren" campaign will not end well, I'm afraid. Unless Berkshire selling us would be a good thing. Maybe it would. I'm just worried.

unless of course the sale results in this http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=2505894#post2505894

 

[realityman]

The long and short of all the discussions on all the threads talking about Netjet's current negotiations is this:

We've been through this all before. Exact same thing. Big bad union wants big raises. Company says no. Battle ensues. Same players at the company and within the pilot group running around saying the same things. "Netjets can't afford what we want.", "We'll bankrupt the company.", "No way will clients pay any more for this product.", "Warren will sell us/shut us down if we keep doing what we're doing.". And on and on and on. The chief pilot at the time told me to my face that Netjets couldn't afford what we wanted. The company even went so far as to allow the union leadership to have a look inside "the books" to show there was no money (only a general overview, they flat out refused to allow the union to do a forensic audit).

And when all was said and done and we got most of what we wanted, the company just 6 months later entered bankruptcy, was sold off in parts, WB took a nice tax write off for the whole failed endeavour, the pilots were proven wrong, all the naysayers were out in force with various versions of "I told you so!", and it was proven once and for all that unions only hurt companies.

Oh, wait. Or was it that the company, less than a year after the contract was signed, went on to make record profits (at the time), pilots were happy, the naysayers went suddenly quiet, growth at the company exploded, a whole bunch of people at the other fractionals and even some charter operators "coincidentally" received raises (a couple of which also "coincidentally" matched our new payscales closely), some upper management who were spreading the negative word (starting with Boisture) were gone, and just 2 years later the company was back with an even better offer (financially) at IBB.

I can't predict with 100% certainty how this battle will shake out. But history has shown we have very good chances of prevailing. What will the final CBA look like? I don't know, but I'm as certain as I can be that it won't contain concessions and we'll do okay if not great. The company is making lots of money. Warren isn't going to sell us or shut us down. Like I said, I can't be 100% certain of anything, but we've been through this before with the same players saying the same things. I'm not too worried (sorry about that G4, not trying to be cavalier about it).

Folks like G4 are the product of their environment. It's why I respect his opinions and don't care to resort to insults or name calling. The former NJI folks, back in the day, were treated far superior to NJA pilots, not to mention being paid better. They had a great deal going with RTS, and only saw our union as rocking a boat they were very comfortable in (although it is a little ironic because G4 has come on here and accused me of a cavalier attitude towards my coworkers' future here, yet was part of a group in the past that didn't seem to care one little bit about our future with the company, only worried about themselves, but I digress). I remember during our lat fight when I saw one of our GV's on the ramp in PBI. I was curious what it was like inside, do I asked the F/O who happened to be nearby if I could have a look. He graciously agreed and he and the F/A gave me a nice tour of the cabin. Then I wanted to see the flight deck. I went up and there was an old crotchety captain up there. While admiring things, he took it upon himself to begin chastising me for the union activities and told me all about how we'd wreck the company if we continued. I thanked him for the look and hastily left.

The moral of that story? Just to illustrate the mindset of the former NJI folks and the fact that changing those thought processes takes time, even years after the integration. G4 is comfortable with his job and afraid we'll screw it up. I don't blame him. This kind of fight is scary. But in the end, we'll be okay and end up with a better CBA. Same thing as last time around.

 

[ghostrider64]

I am mainly worried about my colleagues who are not so secure financially.

What a crock... You're only concerned about YOURSELF. In fact you've publicly posted how you would be the first to cross a primary picket line during a strike. This is what all self centered people are like. They play the, "I'm worried about everyone else" card, yet their actions and in your case, words, speak volumes.

In fact your being so vocal in your regards to scabbing, means you don't give a damned iota about your "colleagues". I've known guys like you in the service, the one off lone wolves that did nothing but bolster their own careers, at the expense of all others, all while claiming "I'm doing it for you".

Disgusting.

 

[G4dude]

What a crock... You're only concerned about YOURSELF. In fact you've publicly posted how you would be the first to cross a primary picket line during a strike. This is what all self centered people are like. They play the, "I'm worried about everyone else" card, yet their actions and in your case, words, speak volumes.

In fact your being so vocal in your regards to scabbing, means you don't give a damned iota about your "colleagues". I've known guys like you in the service, the one off lone wolves that did nothing but bolster their own careers, at the expense of all others, all while claiming "I'm doing it for you".

Disgusting.

...sigh...

 

[G4dude]

The long and short of all the discussions on all the threads talking about Netjet's current negotiations is this:

We've been through this all before. Exact same thing. Big bad union wants big raises. Company says no. Battle ensues. Same players at the company and within the pilot group running around saying the same things. "Netjets can't afford what we want.", "We'll bankrupt the company.", "No way will clients pay any more for this product.", "Warren will sell us/shut us down if we keep doing what we're doing.". And on and on and on. The chief pilot at the time told me to my face that Netjets couldn't afford what we wanted. The company even went so far as to allow the union leadership to have a look inside "the books" to show there was no money (only a general overview, they flat out refused to allow the union to do a forensic audit).

And when all was said and done and we got most of what we wanted, the company just 6 months later entered bankruptcy, was sold off in parts, WB took a nice tax write off for the whole failed endeavour, the pilots were proven wrong, all the naysayers were out in force with various versions of "I told you so!", and it was proven once and for all that unions only hurt companies.

Oh, wait. Or was it that the company, less than a year after the contract was signed, went on to make record profits (at the time), pilots were happy, the naysayers went suddenly quiet, growth at the company exploded, a whole bunch of people at the other fractionals and even some charter operators "coincidentally" received raises (a couple of which also "coincidentally" matched our new payscales closely), some upper management who were spreading the negative word (starting with Boisture) were gone, and just 2 years later the company was back with an even better offer (financially) at IBB.

I can't predict with 100% certainty how this battle will shake out. But history has shown we have very good chances of prevailing. What will the final CBA look like? I don't know, but I'm as certain as I can be that it won't contain concessions and we'll do okay if not great. The company is making lots of money. Warren isn't going to sell us or shut us down. Like I said, I can't be 100% certain of anything, but we've been through this before with the same players saying the same things. I'm not too worried (sorry about that G4, not trying to be cavalier about it).

Folks like G4 are the product of their environment. It's why I respect his opinions and don't care to resort to insults or name calling. The former NJI folks, back in the day, were treated far superior to NJA pilots, not to mention being paid better. They had a great deal going with RTS, and only saw our union as rocking a boat they were very comfortable in (although it is a little ironic because G4 has come on here and accused me of a cavalier attitude towards my coworkers' future here, yet was part of a group in the past that didn't seem to care one little bit about our future with the company, only worried about themselves, but I digress). I remember during our lat fight when I saw one of our GV's on the ramp in PBI. I was curious what it was like inside, do I asked the F/O who happened to be nearby if I could have a look. He graciously agreed and he and the F/A gave me a nice tour of the cabin. Then I wanted to see the flight deck. I went up and there was an old crotchety captain up there. While admiring things, he took it upon himself to begin chastising me for the union activities and told me all about how we'd wreck the company if we continued. I thanked him for the look and hastily left.

The moral of that story? Just to illustrate the mindset of the former NJI folks and the fact that changing those thought processes takes time, even years after the integration. G4 is comfortable with his job and afraid we'll screw it up. I don't blame him. This kind of fight is scary. But in the end, we'll be okay and end up with a better CBA. Same thing as last time around.

Good post, but how did my group not care about the future of our coworkers? I must have missed that. And I apologize for the behavior of that Crusty Captain. I would have welcomed you aboard unreservedly.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

The NJ pilots have exposed G4 for what he is, so he has been posting on the Flex/FO threads and been carrying managements message over there.

 

[G4dude]

The NJ pilots have exposed G4 for what he is, so he has been posting on the Flex/FO threads and been carrying managements message over there.

I used to fly for Flex, you moron. And by the way, stop drinking and posting.

 

[pilotyip]

I used to fly for Flex, you moron. And by the way, stop drinking and posting.

Now Now, no name calling. :laugh:

 

[Traderd]

Now Now, no name calling. :laugh:

That's not an insult, it's a term of endearment!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_Kh7nLplWo

 

[realityman]

Good post, but how did my group not care about the future of our coworkers? I must have missed that. And I apologize for the behavior of that Crusty Captain. I would have welcomed you aboard unreservedly.

I think more of you care NOW, since we're all one group.

But back during our last fight in '04-'05 none of you supported us at all. I spoke with many NJI crews at hotels, FBO's, restaurants, wherever. The vast majority of you were very nice and a lot of fun to hang with. Great road stories. Even helped me out with a pinch or two I found myself in.

However, talk would inevitably come around to our negotiations. How could it not? It was the big "happening" at the time. And while most were nice about it, I couldn't find a singe one of you who supported us, or could even just say "good luck". The theme was the same: we're wrecking the company and just be happy we have what we have.
If you ask me, kind of a cavalier attitude towards the careers of those of us who essentially worked at the same company. You were treated better, paid better, given better schedules (you rarely sat on FBO rot), ate better food (no crewfood program for you back then), stayed in nicer hotels (mostly), could live and airline out of more cities than us, and were able to work things out on your own with schedulers regarding days off and such.

Mostly what we wanted was to be treated the same. And the vast majority of the NJI folks told us not to rock the boat.

If you didn't think that way I apologize. But while nice about it, I never met one of you, not one, who thought we were doing the right thing.

Ah well, water under the bridge. Just wanted to explain my comment about you not caring at all about our careers and why I find it ironic to have you chastise me about being cavalier towards my coworkers' careers.

 

[G4dude]

I think more of you care NOW, since we're all one group.

But back during our last fight in '04-'05 none of you supported us at all. I spoke with many NJI crews at hotels, FBO's, restaurants, wherever. The vast majority of you were very nice and a lot of fun to hang with. Great road stories. Even helped me out with a pinch or two I found myself in.

However, talk would inevitably come around to our negotiations. How could it not? It was the big "happening" at the time. And while most were nice about it, I couldn't find a singe one of you who supported us, or could even just say "good luck". The theme was the same: we're wrecking the company and just be happy we have what we have.
If you ask me, kind of a cavalier attitude towards the careers of those of us who essentially worked at the same company. You were treated better, paid better, given better schedules (you rarely sat on FBO rot), ate better food (no crewfood program for you back then), stayed in nicer hotels (mostly), could live and airline out of more cities than us, and were able to work things out on your own with schedulers regarding days off and such.

Mostly what we wanted was to be treated the same. And the vast majority of the NJI folks told us not to rock the boat.

If you didn't think that way I apologize. But while nice about it, I never met one of you, not one, who thought we were doing the right thing.

Ah well, water under the bridge. Just wanted to explain my comment about you not caring at all about our careers and why I find it ironic to have you chastise me about being cavalier towards my coworkers' careers.

Fair enough. I was one of the guys who hoped you got a deal as good as ours, while hoping it wouldn't hurt the company. My concerns about that never came to fruition, which is a good thing, and you guys are paid a lot better now. Now I think we are paid pretty much right. I could be wrong again, incredibly.