NetJets Unrest Puts Warren Buffett in a Rare Pinch

[realityman]

So many posts are base upon the logic "he has soooooo much money he should pay us more". That is a very poor premise and outnumbers all others probably 10 to 1.

Funny, any time I wanted a raise I went to my superiors and my basis was always "I should be paid more because ..... I am valuable because ... I do a better job because .... I can make you more money because .... I make the company better because...." My team members who want raises come to me with similar logic. I have never said "you should pay me more because you have so much money and wouldn't notice it" or something similar. But that is the overwhelming position not only on this board, but in the public campaign. It is all based upon NJA's $$.

The pilots know I support them. But the argument, position and strategy being employed is not one of strength and productivity but one of entitlement. Please don't shower me with messages about how productive you are, etc. - while that is true and I agree - that is NOT the emphasis of YOUR campaign and NOT the issue which the union is communicating to the owners. Maybe the union show have a survey company poll a demographic similar to the owners (like marketing companies regularly do) and see if the campaign is effective and communicating the proper message? If there is a "gaol sheet" of the objectives of the campaign, I seriously doubt they are being accomplished as far as the owners are concerned.

I appreciate the perspective, but that's not what I see going on. The point I, and many others here (but admittedly not all) are trying to make is that we are trying to make the case as you suggest (how much we work, our experience, our value to the company, etc..) and that we deserve a raise because of it. In fact, we deserve to be paid as well as our counterparts at the legacies. We aren't saying we should have a raise BECAUSE Netjets/BH has money, we're saying they can afford to provide us the raise we deserve for the previously mentioned reasons.

I'm not sure what union's public propaganda you've been following, but I haven't seen one single thing put out by our union that's said we should have a raise simply because Netjets/BH has money. Would you kindly point me in the direction of that propaganda. All I've seen publicly so far is our union trying to point out our EMT's incompetence and mismanagement of the company. We have genuine concern for how they are taking care of your aviation asset as well as for the service they're providing you. And we the pilots can't provide you that service you should have because this EMT isn't giving us the tools we need to do so, and in fact keeps putting more and more obstacles in our way.

But I've seen nothing from our union saying we should be paid more simply because NJA/BH has lots of money.

 

[NJAowner]

How about huge signs and billboards that essentially just say GREED. That is not boasting your attributes. The message you think you are sending and what is being received are 2 very different things. Quite common in the business world -- marketing people and PR firms spend a lot of time refining message to make sure they are effective.

 

[realityman]

Actually, they got it exactly right. It is management greed which is reducing service to you. The company is wildly profitable, yet cutbacks continue, not just to employees, but to our clients. And why? So BH and WB, both wildly wealthy, can squeeze a few more insignificant dollars out for themselves (insignificant to them, not to your value for the product or our compensation). But I don't see how that message has anything to do with what you were originally talking about, that we claim we should have raises just because they have money. That is not a, message I've seen our union communicating.

 

[T-1GUY]

So what do you call it when the company you work for underpays their frontline highly skilled employees by forty percent compared to other professionals with the same skll set in the industry, and then demands paycuts at a time when the company is making money hand over fist on the backs of those employees just so Warren can have a higher rate of return.

I'll call it what it is: GREED

 

[msculley6905]

Was the union not ready/willing/wanting to extend the current deal back before all this started? Why then were willing to accept "40% less than your peers". To my knowledge NJ also does not make 100s of millions of dollars per quarter like the majors, so comparing pay to them is apples and oranges (strictly talking revenue stream, not skillset) Not to mention the vastly different financial/operating structure.

 

[Usual Suspect]

So many posts are base upon the logic "he has soooooo much money he should pay us more". That is a very poor premise and outnumbers all others probably 10 to 1.

Funny, any time I wanted a raise I went to my superiors and my basis was always "I should be paid more because ..... I am valuable because ... I do a better job because .... I can make you more money because .... I make the company better because...." My team members who want raises come to me with similar logic. I have never said "you should pay me more because you have so much money and wouldn't notice it" or something similar. But that is the overwhelming position not only on this board, but in the public campaign. It is all based upon NJA's $$.

The pilots know I support them. But the argument, position and strategy being employed is not one of strength and productivity but one of entitlement. Please don't shower me with messages about how productive you are, etc. - while that is true and I agree - that is NOT the emphasis of YOUR campaign and NOT the issue which the union is communicating to the owners. Maybe the union show have a survey company poll a demographic similar to the owners (like marketing companies regularly do) and see if the campaign is effective and communicating the proper message? If there is a "gaol sheet" of the objectives of the campaign, I seriously doubt they are being accomplished as far as the owners are concerned.

I think you're misinformed. When we say that NJA can afford to pay the pilots more, we're merely rebutting the company's claim. Right out of the gate, when the company decided to open contract negotiations, the first thing they demanded was pay cuts, more work for that lower wage, more for health insurance, etc. The reason they gave was that they needed to give BH a higher return. So you see, they are the ones that started the whole "you need to take pay cuts so we can increase BH's profit from 30 billion to 30.1 billion" nonsense.

The pilots never went to them and said "you should pay me more because you have so much money and wouldn't notice it" as you said above. We're merely sweeping aside their absurd demand that we take pay cuts when they tell recurrent classes how much money the company is making, how great sales are, how they had to raise prices on marquis cards because they're selling so many of them and BH's quarterly reports show that NJA is making lots of money.

If you're getting a different message than that, then I agree with your comment about the message needing some clarification. It's hard to explain all that on a picket sign.

 

[Hawker dude]

How about huge signs and billboards that essentially just say GREED. That is not boasting your attributes. The message you think you are sending and what is being received are 2 very different things. Quite common in the business world -- marketing people and PR firms spend a lot of time refining message to make sure they are effective.

why do you come back?

I have watched the boards for a long time, and you were gone.

now you are back

i don't believe you are an owner and i think you are full of ********************

and you really do not understand business, you are clearly an uneducated pilot

 

[Hawker dude]

I am many things, but an idiot? Sorry, no. Are you trying to gently suggest we disagree on a few points?

yes we disagree. i have watched what you say on the boards. you are clearly a management guy. you talk down to people and play them like they are stupid. we are not. and you should go back into the hole you came from.

 

[NJAowner]

Hawker dude - believe what you want. What is the "long time" I was gone ... Maybe a few weeks. Believe it or not, and beside the fact that this site is both informative and entertaining, I think many of you have real misperceptions about owners and life on the other side (for many, not all). I actually support the pilots, think you guys are great and deserve more, but just think the the attitude of many and then way you are trying to accomulish your goals is, at times, both out of touch and ineffective. I don't mean that to be insulting - but look back at years of my posts which are both supportive of the pilots and providing insight on how to accomplish your goals.

 

[T-1GUY]

Was the union not ready/willing/wanting to extend the current deal back before all this started? Why then were willing to accept "40% less than your peers". To my knowledge NJ also does not make 100s of millions of dollars per quarter like the majors, so comparing pay to them is apples and oranges (strictly talking revenue stream, not skillset) Not to mention the vastly different financial/operating structure.[/QUOTE

Why would any professional pilot not compare their wages to other pilot jobs that they are qualified for? The apple to apple comparison IS the SKILL SET and what is a competitive wage for that SKILL SET. I chose to take my SKILL SET to another employer that compensates me fairly for my experience. It just so happens to be a lot more than a 40% increase in compensation. Funny thing is I still fly the same approaches into the same airports. I talk to the same ATC. I don't clean the airplane. I don't lift bags for pax. I don't stock airplanes. I work shorter trips and have more time off at the hotel.

I think if you applied COLA increases to the Netjets wage tables since the signing of the contract in 2007 it would be quite a sizable raise with the SAME buying power. I personally was not happy with the contract as I always felt underpaid. However, my UNION was still working on getting to a mature contract.

Remember when RTS said "The pilots could of got more"?

Try reviewing the financial results of Netjets over the last few years.

You need to educate yourself...

 

[jonjuan]

why do you come back?

I have watched the boards for a long time, and you were gone.

now you are back

i don't believe you are an owner and i think you are full of ********************

and you really do not understand business, you are clearly an uneducated pilot

yep-not an owner. pretty funny that he/shes hoodwinked so many on here for so long.

 

[msculley6905]

Was the union not ready/willing/wanting to extend the current deal back before all this started? Why then were willing to accept "40% less than your peers". To my knowledge NJ also does not make 100s of millions of dollars per quarter like the majors, so comparing pay to them is apples and oranges (strictly talking revenue stream, not skillset) Not to mention the vastly different financial/operating structure.[/QUOTE

Why would any professional pilot not compare their wages to other pilot jobs that they are qualified for? The apple to apple comparison IS the SKILL SET and what is a competitive wage for that SKILL SET. I chose to take my SKILL SET to another employer that compensates me fairly for my experience. It just so happens to be a lot more than a 40% increase in compensation. Funny thing is I still fly the same approaches into the same airports. I talk to the same ATC. I don't clean the airplane. I don't lift bags for pax. I don't stock airplanes. I work shorter trips and have more time off at the hotel.

I think if you applied COLA increases to the Netjets wage tables since the signing of the contract in 2007 it would be quite a sizable raise with the SAME buying power. I personally was not happy with the contract as I always felt underpaid. However, my UNION was still working on getting to a mature contract.

Remember when RTS said "The pilots could of got more"?

Try reviewing the financial results of Netjets over the last few years.

You need to educate yourself...

Good points, although I consider myself fairly educated in the matter already. My point was simply that quarterly revenue, from what I read (243m from a november article), are not that of a major airline (DL ~11B, WN ~4B..and yes, i know their costs are also dramatically higher than ours, just on fuel alone). If they were, then by all means I would expect a similar if not better contract. We just simply don't turn as large of profits as they do..not even close.

 

[G4dude]

yes we disagree. i have watched what you say on the boards. you are clearly a management guy. you talk down to people and play them like they are stupid. we are not. and you should go back into the hole you came from.

I just fly the planes. Ask Gutshotdraw and ACATerry, they know me. You think I am some kind of weird capitalist grinder in the faces of widows and orphans? Most of the pilots I fly with agree with me. At least 80 percent, in my unofficial estimation. They just don't post on sites like this. Too much acrimony.
This "embarassing Warren" campaign will not end well, I'm afraid. Unless Berkshire selling us would be a good thing. Maybe it would. I'm just worried.

 

[T-1GUY]

Mcsulley,

The size of the operation does not set the wage for the skill set. You would just need a greater number of pilots.

 

[pilotyip]

I just fly the planes. Ask Gutshotdraw and ACATerry, they know me. You think I am some kind of weird capitalist grinder in the faces of widows and orphans? Most of the pilots I fly with agree with me. At least 80 percent, in my unofficial estimation. They just don't post on sites like this. Too much acrimony.
This "embarassing Warren" campaign will not end well, I'm afraid. Unless Berkshire selling us would be a good thing. Maybe it would. I'm just worried.

unless of course the sale results in this http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=2505894#post2505894