NetJets Unrest Puts Warren Buffett in a Rare Pinch

[G4dude]

But the company has clearly stated they aren't interested in an agreement. They have sent out their agreement and they have specifically stated that if we do not accept it they will not buy any new planes, not hire new pilots and not recall furloughed pilots.

Whether you believe they are going to do it or not is irrelevant. You have stated he union is a thug embarrassing the company and Wb. Then what is the company by stating if we do not accept these concessions we will be forced to?

I've asked many questions and the best you've come up with is don't worry mon be happy. It will get done eventually. You don't answer questions on how it will get done. You state that demand will get our contract because the industry is running out of pilots but you have no backup plan. You can't state when the industry will run out of pilots and therefor since the two are tied together when we will get a new contract.

So again I ask you. Why is the company allowed to make very clear threats against our profession. Erode our contact. Demand concessions from us or else. Demand a roi that the company has never been able to achieve in a million years or else.

But the union is thugs and we shouldn't get riled up. This is the early stage.? It's been almost 2 years. Explain to us your background in contract negotiations and why you believe it's the early stage? Explain to us why you are the authority on why we shouldn't get riled up because it will work itself out.

Sorry you're a fence sitter. You don't want to rock the boat. You don't want to be mean. The union is a bunch of meanies. Yet you offer no experience or history in the subject matter.

Yeah I'll just go ahead and "don't worry mon, it'll be alright."

Enjoy the fence. That boys and girls is how you get used to taking it up the ass.

You are just trying to rile everybody up, using your usual elegant language to do so. Negotiations ALWAYS start far apart and move closer as time goes on. Taking individual hardline statements by the company and attempting to inflame the members is a cynical attempt to fire us all up, when we should be engaging, through the union unfortunately, to gradually hammer out a good deal for both sides. Without all the inflammatory BS. You tend to confirm the worst thoughts I have always had about unions, unfortunately, you and the other hooligans.

 

[G4dude]

We are approaching 2 years now...how long should it take?
And remember, it was not the greedy, bad egomaniac pilots who opened this up. The company had that extension and decided to waste a good opportunity to work together through it. I think THAT speaks volumes.

Sure it does. And our continuing the protracted negotiations speaks volumes about what we want. Its just negotiations, happens all the time. I think the pilot shortage will get what we want when it all plays out. The Union will get us a good deal, I just with they would stop leaking early company negotiating positions to make us angry.

 

[G4dude]

Look them straight in the eye, tell them to do what they need to, and then never give it another thought. It's a ridiculous and poorly thought out bluff. NetJets and BH make serious money selling new planes and the current owners are sick of the old run down things they ride around in now. If NetJets doesn't buy new planes, they won't keep the customers they have let alone attract new ones. Your salary won't change and the company will earn significantly less. Even if they were completely insane and didn't take the new planes, they still would need to recall to keep the planes they currently have in the air. Attrition is not going to slow anytime soon. So how is this a credible threat to you? They would be smarter to say they will wind the whole thing down. That would be at least somewhat plausible though extremely unlikely.

Good post. However, your point doesn't help the Union rabble rousers who want you to feel they are totally indespensable.

 

[Diesel]

You are just trying to rile everybody up, using your usual elegant language to do so. Negotiations ALWAYS start far apart and move closer as time goes on. Taking individual hardline statements by the company and attempting to inflame the members is a cynical attempt to fire us all up, when we should be engaging, through the union unfortunately, to gradually hammer out a good deal for both sides. Without all the inflammatory BS. You tend to confirm the worst thoughts I have always had about unions, unfortunately, you and the other hooligans.

I'm not riling anyone up. The company has already done that.

I'm asking you questions. Questions you can't seem to answer. Questions you don't want to deal with.

You go back to the same old line of union thuggery.

I'm not just randomly choosing hardline statements. I'm asking you why is the company demanding this but you don't acknowledge it.

Keep riding that fence. Your theories have been proving wrong at every step and your only argument is you're getting bullied. You can't even support your own talking points.

You should be fired up. You should be disgusted that the company wants to destroy your benefits, reduce your pay, increase your work hours and decrease your time off.

But hey let everyone else do the heavy lifting for you.

See you at the Vue.

 

[G4dude]

Obviously. But GIV argument was that the union was acting in thugary and he didn't like it. Yet he refuses to acknowledge what the company has been doing, writing, and telling the pilots.

We all knew. Well those of us that have seen this before that the threats were full of crap. They couldn't do any of the things if they tried. They also lost face by threatening to do so and not follow through.

Taken by itself it means nothing but when you add in some of the odd decisions the company has made in the last year and half it makes for interesting reading.

All this vague conspiracy theory stuff is boring. And silly. Negotiate, give us the final draft to vote on, and act like an adult. Geez.

 

[X-rated]

NJAOwner may be right, but these "results" may be shortsighted. Today I had in in depth conversation with a large share holder. He was really disappointed with the interior of the C350, with the exception of the galley. Ultimately he's saying goodbye to his large cabin share (he loves Gulfstream products and was reading the FT bombardier article today), and keeping is XL share for short hops.

Which aircraft actually contribute more to the bottom line again? Guess BRK should look at the results again and perhaps they'd see that the reduction injecting owner expectations will ultimately hurt their "current" bottom line numbers.

I'm confused. If he's a large cabin guy, why is he looking at the CL350? Might it be because despite it being a midsize airplane with a midsize price tag, it has an almost an identical cross section as the 450/550? If he's actually a large cabin guy, the Global 5000 and 6000 cabins crush the G450 and G550. The 6000 has a better cabin than the G650 for god's sake. Everything I've heard suggests NetJet's Globals are selling like hotcakes. Hope you educated him and pointed him in the right direction. Somehow, I get the feeling there is more to this story than he's a Gulfstream guy, so he won't buy a Global. Maybe he can't afford a new Global share, and if that's the case, he wouldn't have been able to afford a new Gulfstream share either. I also wonder how many NetJets Global owners are now Global guys? You can't please everyone every time. That doesn't mean ditching Gulfstream for Bombardier was a bad business decision. Time will tell.

 

[imacdog]

We are negotiating. Management won't budge on concessions. Now what do you suggest we do?

 

[Some guy]

I can't post it here. Sorry.

Got it. So you can repeat proprietary information so long as you don't copy and paste. I was just curious when the email went out in case I accidentally deleted it.

GS

 

[Some guy]

Ted Striker: My orders came through. My squadron ships out tomorrow. We're bombing the storage depots at Daiquiri at 1800 hours. We're coming in from the north, below their radar.
Elaine Dickinson: When will you be back?
Ted Striker: I can't tell you that. It's classified.

 

[Diesel]

Got it. So you can repeat proprietary information so long as you don't copy and paste. I was just curious when the email went out in case I accidentally deleted it.



GS

It wasn't an email it was a memo. Plus I believed sent to our houses but i can't remember.

As for the rest keep looking for smoke.

 

[G4dude]

I'm not riling anyone up. The company has already done that.

I'm asking you questions. Questions you can't seem to answer. Questions you don't want to deal with.

You go back to the same old line of union thuggery.

I'm not just randomly choosing hardline statements. I'm asking you why is the company demanding this but you don't acknowledge it.

Keep riding that fence. Your theories have been proving wrong at every step and your only argument is you're getting bullied. You can't even support your own talking points.

You should be fired up. You should be disgusted that the company wants to destroy your benefits, reduce your pay, increase your work hours and decrease your time off.

But hey let everyone else do the heavy lifting for you.

See you at the Vue.

They want us to work harder and take less pay and benefits. We want to make more and work less. Why get angry during the early negotiations? Lets keep bargaining and lets see what the final product is that we can vote on. I don't understand getting angry. Of COURSE they want to give us less compensation. We want to make more, should that make the company mad at us? Grow up. It is not "disgusting" for the company to try to compensate us less. its not "disgusting" for us to want to be compensated more. The bargaining process is always this way. All we care about is the contract offer we vote on.

 

[T-1GUY]

They want us to work harder and take less pay and benefits. We want to make more and work less. Why get angry during the early negotiations? Lets keep bargaining and lets see what the final product is that we can vote on. I don't understand getting angry. Of COURSE they want to give us less compensation. We want to make more, should that make the company mad at us? Grow up. It is not "disgusting" for the company to try to compensate us less. its not "disgusting" for us to want to be compensated more. The bargaining process is always this way. All we care about is the contract offer we vote on.

The bargaining process is not always this way. Once again you show your ignorance on the matter. Please reference IBB 2007.

 

[Diesel]

They want us to work harder and take less pay and benefits. We want to make more and work less. Why get angry during the early negotiations? Lets keep bargaining and lets see what the final product is that we can vote on. I don't understand getting angry. Of COURSE they want to give us less compensation. We want to make more, should that make the company mad at us? Grow up. It is not "disgusting" for the company to try to compensate us less. its not "disgusting" for us to want to be compensated more. The bargaining process is always this way. All we care about is the contract offer we vote on.

Again enlighten us with your experience of negotiations. Please list all the union shops you worked for and what contracts that you have worked through.

The answer is 0. You have no experience in this landscape yet your coming here explaining to us how YOU think it should work.

So regale us with all your union experience and negotiation history. All of us can't wait to hear the depth of your experience as you seem to post here with such authority.

 

[G4dude]

Again enlighten us with your experience of negotiations. Please list all the union shops you worked for and what contracts that you have worked through.

The answer is 0. You have no experience in this landscape yet your coming here explaining to us how YOU think it should work.

So regale us with all your union experience and negotiation history. All of us can't wait to hear the depth of your experience as you seem to post here with such authority.

You are right. I have, however, seen plenty of union/management negotiations through the years, and have spent hours with ex Eastern pilots, one of whom was on the Strike Committee. The things they told me about union malfeasance would curl the hair of any normal person. And how the union would drum up anger in order to manipulate the group. One would think pilots were smarter than that, but I guess not. But you are right. This is my first personal rodeo with a union, and NJASAP seems to do a good job, but the emotional negotiating process and the "embarass Warren" campaign worries me and many of my colleagues on the doughty Guffstreams. On a side topic, maybe Warren will sell us to Santulli. I think that would be cool.

 

[Diesel]

You are right. I have, however, seen plenty of union/management negotiations through the years, and have spent hours with ex Eastern pilots, one of whom was on the Strike Committee. The things they told me about union malfeasance would curl the hair of any normal person. And how the union would drum up anger in order to manipulate the group. One would think pilots were smarter than that, but I guess not. But you are right. This is my first personal rodeo with a union, and NJASAP seems to do a good job, but the emotional negotiating process and the "embarass Warren" campaign worries me and many of my colleagues on the doughty Guffstreams. On a side topic, maybe Warren will sell us to Santulli. I think that would be cool.

So that's clear you have no union experience. Your experience is hearing some war stories about one of the most famous strikes in aviation. If we were all able to be experts based on bar talk I'd be an surgeon after spending many hours with my dad. In the end though talk is not experience.

Glad we cleared that up. You're a pilot that is talking from no union experience but acting like an expert because you are offended.

Have you volunteered for the union at all to learn more?
Have you logged into the union messageboard?
Are you receiving the weekly updates from the union? Are you reading it?
Are you staying informed?
Are you a dues payer or a fees payer?
Have you read the fud book that is for sale?

You can't be spoonfed your whole life. I know it's the easy path but maybe you should take some time and get some education.

You're quick to jump on the union but only because it offends you. Not due to experience.

 

[G4dude]

So that's clear you have no union experience. Your experience is hearing some war stories about one of the most famous strikes in aviation. If we were all able to be experts based on bar talk I'd be an surgeon after spending many hours with my dad. In the end though talk is not experience.

Glad we cleared that up. You're a pilot that is talking from no union experience but acting like an expert because you are offended.

Have you volunteered for the union at all to learn more?
Have you logged into the union messageboard?
Are you receiving the weekly updates from the union? Are you reading it?
Are you staying informed?
Are you a dues payer or a fees payer?
Have you read the fud book that is for sale?

You can't be spoonfed your whole life. I know it's the easy path but maybe you should take some time and get some education.

You're quick to jump on the union but only because it offends you. Not due to experience.

I disagree with the union tactics and the behavior of the goons like you. You are a well known union activist, with whom I have many disagreements. I pay dues. I have been on the union message board, and thought it sophomoric and rather embarassing. I fly for NJA, and am reasonably informed for that reason. What really frosts you is that I actually will come a board and disagree with you. You are not used to that and react vehemently and crassly, which is normal for goons. The union updates read like a propoganda brochure from some street corner anarchist group. I don't disagree with you because I am uninformed, but because I have the same knowledge as you but have come to different conclusions. The War Stories you refer to? They were gut wrenching stories from guys whose careers had been seriously damaged by the Machinists Union at Eastern. Did you know some of the Eastern pilots met with Borman secretly to offer the union's help in fighting the machinists? He turned them down, thought he could manage without the huge fracture that would result from one union fighting another.

 

[Diesel]

I don't care that you disagree with me. That is what makes life interesting. What I do care is that your view is so myopic and so focused on hating the union that you don't see the big picture. You say everything the union does is sophomoric, but you don't reference anything the company does.

Your experience in unions and negotiations is nil except for a few eastern friends. When called out on it you attack the thug lifestyle, but it's you who inflame on a anonymous messagboard. You won't express your views at the vue in savannah.

We come to different conclusions because I have the experience and background that this story has already been written once. You come to your conclusions because you have no experience in these matters. You have nothing to draw from. Do you think 3000 pilots are all wrong and you're the only guy right?

I'm a well known anybody. I'm not an activist I'm a volunteer. I'm making sure that our new contract is something to be proud of. You're a fence sitter who talks about crossing a picket line on an anonymous message board. I've never once heard you say that your plan in the company of pilots. I'll be sure to ask you about it next time I see you.

Nothing frosts me, especially someone that is using anonymity to voice their argument which they haven't been able to answer one question about.

Will we see you picketing in Omaha? If you are working I hope that you will support your brothers and sisters by paying for s flight or hotel room for them. Will you be doing that?

 

[G4dude]

I don't care that you disagree with me. That is what makes life interesting. What I do care is that your view is so myopic and so focused on hating the union that you don't see the big picture. You say everything the union does is sophomoric, but you don't reference anything the company does.

Your experience in unions and negotiations is nil except for a few eastern friends. When called out on it you attack the thug lifestyle, but it's you who inflame on a anonymous messagboard. You won't express your views at the vue in savannah.

We come to different conclusions because I have the experience and background that this story has already been written once. You come to your conclusions because you have no experience in these matters. You have nothing to draw from. Do you think 3000 pilots are all wrong and you're the only guy right?

I'm a well known anybody. I'm not an activist I'm a volunteer. I'm making sure that our new contract is something to be proud of. You're a fence sitter who talks about crossing a picket line on an anonymous message board. I've never once heard you say that your plan in the company of pilots. I'll be sure to ask you about it next time I see you.

Nothing frosts me, especially someone that is using anonymity to voice their argument which they haven't been able to answer one question about.

Will we see you picketing in Omaha? If you are working I hope that you will support your brothers and sisters by paying for s flight or hotel room for them. Will you be doing that?

I post anonymously precisely because union goons, maybe not you, would mistreat me if they knew who I am. I will NOT picket in Omaha, not because I don't want us to get a good deal, but because I think it is the wrong tactic. I want the same thing you want, but feel the union tactics will backfire. I care about our "brothers and sisters" just as much as you do. BTW, you pretend that I am the only pro free market guy at NJA, and I KNOW you know better, because you are on the Guffstream too. A lot of pilots here agree with me, they just don't have the intestinal fortitude (UNDERSTANDABLY) to post here or elsewhere. Because of the vitriol from the goons. Also, I express my views all the time to my fellow pilots, and they do the same with me. At the Vue and elsewhere.

 

[G4dude]

I don't care that you disagree with me. That is what makes life interesting. What I do care is that your view is so myopic and so focused on hating the union that you don't see the big picture. You say everything the union does is sophomoric, but you don't reference anything the company does.

Your experience in unions and negotiations is nil except for a few eastern friends. When called out on it you attack the thug lifestyle, but it's you who inflame on a anonymous messagboard. You won't express your views at the vue in savannah.

We come to different conclusions because I have the experience and background that this story has already been written once. You come to your conclusions because you have no experience in these matters. You have nothing to draw from. Do you think 3000 pilots are all wrong and you're the only guy right?

I'm a well known anybody. I'm not an activist I'm a volunteer. I'm making sure that our new contract is something to be proud of. You're a fence sitter who talks about crossing a picket line on an anonymous message board. I've never once heard you say that your plan in the company of pilots. I'll be sure to ask you about it next time I see you.

Nothing frosts me, especially someone that is using anonymity to voice their argument which they haven't been able to answer one question about.

Will we see you picketing in Omaha? If you are working I hope that you will support your brothers and sisters by paying for s flight or hotel room for them. Will you be doing that?

In order to cool the rhetoric a little, I want to say this. You are passionate and sincere in what you believe. I just wish you could give people like me credit for being the same.

 

[G4dude]

Ready for another union goon story? When the previous negotiations were going hot and heavy, two of my colleagues, in separate incidents, saw NJA pilots begin their preflight by turning on the landing/taxi lights. Then go inside for a while, coming out later to write up the broken bulb and grounding the plane.