NetJets Strike Passes By 93%

[FLYLOW22]

My personal favorite was the pilot who called in fatigued 15 minutes before an owner flight, even though he was coming off 15 hours of rest and no flights the previous day.

Yes, with behavior like that, its understandable that the schedulers will quickly learn who is a reliable professional and who is not...

It is hard to debate the actions of this pilot. You don't have all of the facts and neither do I.

Did the pilot sleep ok the night before? Did the pilot eat properly? Did the pilot just get off of a few min rest overnights? Did the pilot just finish several 14 hour days or do some back side of the clock/front side of the clock switcheroos? I would love to get you office types out here on the line for a tour or two. Love it.

Reliable professional or consumate professional?

Reliable sounds like Gary Hart talking. It has a double meaning. Reliable isn't always safe.

We are instructed by "management" to punch out for fatigue reasons at any time prior to a flight; 15 minutes included. We have seen "management" intimidate crews by bringing them into CMH for "counseling" as to why they fatigued out. We have also seem "management" terminate pilots for supposedly sleeping in the cockpit. "Management" seems to want it both ways. Pilots can't be tired according to NJA. They are supposed to be machines absent of any human characteristics resembling the need for adequate rest.

Fatigue will kill a crew and Owner(s) here one day if this attitude persists. It just will.

I think the pilot did the right thing. Flying fatigued makes no more sense than flying with no arms. Fatigue also doesn't just annouce itself to the pilot. It is quiet and insidious. Once it sets in... too late if your airborne.

I guess what "management" is telling us to do is hit the gas even thought the stop light is yellow. We might make it.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Tell that to the aviation mechanics out there. The airlines have increased the percentage of maintenance outsourced from 37% in 1996 to 51% this year....

Simple facts are obvious....union representation of private sector employees has dropped to just 7.9% of all employees....here's the Bureau of Labor statistics official numbers:

Separation:

Ooooh. Now outsourcing is a comletely different animal than Union representation.

Management in Corporate America would oursource their mothers if they could. It's all about the numbers with the beano counters.

On Point:

Let's keep the topic on what it was; Aviation Employees remain some of the heaviest Unionized in history. Period. Undisbuted. Had those mechanic jobs you mentioned still existed absent of outsourcing then they would be Unionized. Outsourcing is not a voluntary employee action. It is imposed.

I admit that Union respresentation of private sector employees has declined in the US for several reasons. One of those reasons is the fact that MANUFACTURING JOBS, once hugely Unionized, have been outsourced to other countries thereby sacrificing quality for price. Some SERVICE JOBS (like aviation mechanics) have been outsourced as well but nowhere near the number of manufacturing jobs.

"Management" would love to outsource pilot jobs but fortunately for pilots in the US there are strong Cabotage laws.

Macro View:

Unionized labor is what brought pay and benefits in the US to the levels they were. Many of those pay and benefits packages are drying up as profits become more of a priority than labor well being.

As that trend continues to it's eventual breaking point (when more than an average number of Americans is affected- it's happening already) we will all see an increase in Unionization again. That is my prediction.

Management only increases pay and benes when they are forced to. They are profit maximizers. They are monolithic. It's nothing personal... it's business.

 

[FamilyGuy]

I admit that Union respresentation of private sector employees has declined in the US for several reasons. One of those reasons is the fact that MANUFACTURING JOBS, once hugely Unionized, have been outsourced to other countries thereby sacrificing quality for price. Some SERVICE JOBS (like aviation mechanics) have been outsourced as well but nowhere near the number of manufacturing jobs.

"Management" would love to outsource pilot jobs but fortunately for pilots in the US there are strong Cabotage laws.

Look at the auto industry - one of the largest manufacturing industries out there. Unions have been wholly unsuccessful in unionizing the transplant facilities that have been built in the US by Honda, Toyota, and others. Why?

Has all the auto manufacturing jobs that shifted from GM, Ford, and Chrysler resulted in a sacrifice of QUALITY? Face it....Toyota, Honda, and most other imports are vastly superior to the American product.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Look at the auto industry - one of the largest manufacturing industries out there. Unions have been wholly unsuccessful in unionizing the transplant facilities that have been built in the US by Honda, Toyota, and others. Why?

Has all the auto manufacturing jobs that shifted from GM, Ford, and Chrysler resulted in a sacrifice of QUALITY? Face it....Toyota, Honda, and most other imports are vastly superior to the American product.

I am not in the manufacturing industry, much less the automobile industry. I have no clue how one motor company treats it's employees compared to another.

I did notice that you mentioned several US based companies as Unionized and several Foreign based companies as non Union.

Again, can't comment on the topic as I am not well versed in that industry.

The majority of Aviation employees in the US are Unionized. I CAN tell you that is a fact.

 

[Hawkered]

We now have a union official telling everyone that the resignation of training captains in the Falcon was doomed before it started. Great news huh, so it was a job action? Or wasn't it?

Will s/he say the same thing of any future action?

So labelling all of the people who extended: 600 or so, will they all be labled as scabs? If so, how long will a strike action last?

We're screwed!!@

Hey Family Guy, we have more foreigners here than I've ever seen at any company, I don't think cabotage is protecting anyone. They are just happy to be in America.

 

[Diesel]

And I don't know you from Adam. So why is it OK for you to email me a copy of the memo?

Actually Dispatchr we both know who each other is. We've sent pm's and we have mutual friends upstairs. You know who I am and i know who you are. No big deal.

Sarka-
We all know the circumstances behind "Chip off the old block"'s wall incident. The reason why he punched is because he didn't see the big picture when his bosses and the other pilot did. It's that, "these are my pilots" attitude scheduling has.

Family Guy-
So we've shot down all your arguments and now you're main argument is that unions are in decline and we should become non union? Let's do apples to apples. Show me a list of airlines that have gone from union to non-union. Leaving one union to go to another or start another doesn't count. They are still remaining in some sort of union. There isn't any.

Actually the reverse is true. A lot more aviation companies are becoming union than not. You can blame the Jimmy Hoffa mentality all day long but if we were with ALPA would your view of us change? How about this why don't some of the managers actually take responsibility up there and do their job. Instead of taking the easy way out and blaming the union.

As for the pilot that called in fatigued 15 minutes before the flight. I say bravo. I don't even know the background info but I don't have to. That fact that he was willing to stand up and say I AM NOT SAFE TO FLY should be applauded. Of course you don't really have any idea about all the "extras" we have to do on the road to keep the plane turning.

Oh by the way 70 extended days for some guys are proven by the DATA the company is CONTRACTUALLY REQUIRED to give to the union. It is used to make sure that FAIR AND EQUATABLE distribution of flying. An extended day is different than an aftermidnight. It's noted in the COMPANY SUPPLIED DATA.

Hawkered-
Cut and paste me the link where the union is saying the falcon fleet was doomed from the start. I think that you're one of the guys that enjoy the extending and don't see the big picture.

 

[GVFlyer]

You have it good compared to us, but you are definately lowering the bar for G drivers around the country.

This simply isn't true. Look at any of the salary surveys and you will see that captains at NJI can make $135K; average GIV/GV captain pay is $125K.

GV






~

 

[dsptchrnja]

Management only increases pay and benes when they are forced to. They are profit maximizers. They are monolithic. It's nothing personal... it's business.

Wrong, Wrong, Wrong. Don't even know why you would even try to pass this argument off to people who know better. My pay (non-bargaining employee) more than doubled in less than 6 years with the company - all at the company's choosing.

During the same time frame your union hasn't been able to negotiate any pay raises for it's bargaining employees. The company even tried to raise FO pay outside of negotiations but the union was against it. Again, your union is the problem, not the solution.

 

[dsptchrnja]

Actually Dispatchr we both know who each other is. We've sent pm's and we have mutual friends upstairs. You know who I am and i know who you are. No big deal.

Must have me confused with someone else (NJAdispatcher perhaps?), and I just checked my PM history, never sent one, never received one from you.

 

[Some Dude]

You guys kill me. Defending anyone at the company who took gifts to change their schedules is wrong. Those pilots SHOULD HAVE BEEN TERMINATED ALONG WITH THE SCHEDULERS. Can anyone define GO TO TEAM? Sounds really safe having guys doing 17 hour duty days because they are on the GO TO TEAM. Can't wait to read that accident report and see the Billion dolllar lawsuit that will follow. This company has a history of ethics problem.

 

[JetProp]

.....

 

[Hogprint]

Some Dude is right:

Sounds really safe having guys doing 17 hour duty days because they are on the GO TO TEAM. Can't wait to read that accident report and see the Billion dolllar lawsuit that will follow. This company has a history of ethics problem.

This will be a huge black eye if (god forbid) something like this happend.

How will this jibe with we are the safest company out there theme?

 

[dsptchrnja]

You guys kill me. Defending anyone at the company who took gifts to change their schedules is wrong.

One more time for the slow guy...

NO ONE CHANGED ANYONE'S SCHEDULE BECAUSE THEY RECEIVED A GIFT.

yah, we know, you were part of the investigation... who cares?

...get over it already

 

[Some Dude]

Wrong Dispatcher, Why would anyone give someone a gift? Why didn't the other departments receive gifts from these pilots. Why were you so stupid to post company communication on an internet site? Do you not know that you can be terminated for that? Especially a memo that is for company personnel only. I would watch your posts. You don't have many friends on this site. You wouldn't want your posts of company communication to be forwarded to management. Personally, I wouldn't do that to you. But I do know a few persons who are seriously considering it.

 

[dsptchrnja]

Wrong Dispatcher, Why would anyone give someone a gift? Why didn't the other departments receive gifts from these pilots.

uuhhhh... for the same reason pilots bought us pizzas a few weeks ago? Or perhaps they had some extra nuts and wanted to share them because they were NICE? You mean you've had over a year to think about it and it still hasn't dawned on you that it was a friendly gesture?

You still don't get it.... it's over. Your questions have already been answered for over a year now by people who knew more about it than you. You're not just beating a dead horse here, you're digging it out of the grave and wacking at the bones now.

The thug image isn't suiting you either.

 

[Some Dude]

I'll make note to the pilots to stop feeding you pizza. I'm not the thug. You can be terminated for what you did. Do you not understand that? Don't forget who convinced the company to create a dispatch department. We did. You can be easily replaced.

 

[FamilyGuy]

I don't believe anyone has been threatened for pimping extended days. Many have been urged to not fly overtime by their peers through verbal communication... you know... just talking. Simply looking at the names on Company provides Duty Summary lists and talking to those pilots on the road does not constitute a threat.

Oh...just talking to them, no coercion, no threats....right

Why do you perceive the verbal communication from the chief pilots as threats and coercion but your "friendly little chats" with pilots who want to work overtime is just talking?

 

[FamilyGuy]

I am not in the manufacturing industry, much less the automobile industry. I have no clue how one motor company treats it's employees compared to another.

I did notice that you mentioned several US based companies as Unionized and several Foreign based companies as non Union.

Again, can't comment on the topic as I am not well versed in that industry.

The majority of Aviation employees in the US are Unionized. I CAN tell you that is a fact.

Cant comment since you are not in Manufacturing? Then why did you bring it up as an example when you tried to defend your lame argument?

Sounds to me like you're another victim of blindly repeating union dogma without truly understanding the message.

US based or Foreign Based is irrelevant. The point is that Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, Mercedes, Hyundai all operate auto manufacturing plants right here on American soil, employing American citizens. The unions, which have a stranglehold on the Big 3 US manufacturers have been wholly unsuccessful in converting any of these transplant auto factories.

Again, either the unions have a compelling message or they do not. The facts clearly show that unions are in decline and have been fading to oblivion for 60 years!

As for aviation, yes, currently a majority of employees are unionized. But its just a matter of time before that changes. Read the news and check out the other sections of this board. There's widespread discontent with the union's inability to stop the erosion of wages, benefits, scope, and other advantages that unions have claimed in the past. If the unions cant deliver any advantages over non-union shops then its just natural that the employees will question the wisdom of giving some of their hard earned dollars to the union.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Family Guy-
So we've shot down all your arguments and now you're main argument is that unions are in decline and we should become non union? Let's do apples to apples. Show me a list of airlines that have gone from union to non-union. Leaving one union to go to another or start another doesn't count. They are still remaining in some sort of union. There isn't any.

WHAT? I think those fumes are getting to you Diesel....I havent seen any arguments refuted. In fact, most of my points have been avoided, I must assume because you guys cant even mount a plausible counter argument.

But since you are clearly delusional I'll take pity on you and give you another chance to shoot down my more recent arguments that have not been refuted by sound, rational, facts yet...

Look at the auto industry - one of the largest manufacturing industries out there. Unions have been wholly unsuccessful in unionizing the transplant facilities that have been built in the US by Honda, Toyota, and others. Why?

Has all the auto manufacturing jobs that shifted from GM, Ford, and Chrysler resulted in a sacrifice of QUALITY? Face it....Toyota, Honda, and most other imports are vastly superior to the American product.

Who's claiming NO money? How could the company offer you higher wages than FlexJet, Flight Options, and Citation Shares if they were claiming no money?

Unions have been LOSING for 60 years! Is it really scheming by management or a tired, worn-out message that's no longer applicable?

Either the unions have a compelling message or they do not. It looks like Americans are voting with their feet and leaving in droves.

Or are you telling me that unions have their head stuck in the sand and cant recognize fundamental shifts in demographics and employment trends and adapt their message accordingly? Which is it?

Simple truth is that the facts dont lie. If these number crunchers had access to all the crew schedules and overtime records then that is all that is needed to determine if favoritism was present. Its either in the data or its not.

If you had a problem with the findings of these number crunchers then why didnt you call the ethics hotline 2 years ago? Why raise the issue on an internet board? Maybe because you know there is NO VALIDITY to your claims?

I see the union spinmeisters are out in force to try and explain why 400 of their own didnt participate in the recent strike vote.

you guys are trying hard but there is still something that doesnt ring true in the latest 'explanation'....

if its the old contact list from local 284 that's to blame for the 'no votes' then why was everyone able to vote in the election for a new MEC?

Everyone was able to cast a vote in the election of a new MEC, yet something happened to the list in the intervening 9 months?

Last I heard, total annual cost of crew meals was around $20 million....what is this magical pilot proposal that will save $20 million?

And my personal favorite...

I agree Hogprint, it is negotiations. But that doesnt mean that both groups cant be civil to each other.

And I still dont buy this argument that the company has stalled on this for three years. If the old MEC was a bunch of company stooges that gave the company everything they wanted and 9/11 has just occurred - throwing thousands of pilots out on the street, why wouldnt the Company immediately press for a kick-ass agreement in favor of the company? They were holding all the cards....why not drive the dagger home and get everything they wanted (like the legacy carrier managements are currently doing)?

IMO, the union didnt want to do a deal during 2002-2003 simply because the economy sucked and they wouldnt be able to get what they wanted.....so they waste time going over every single article in the contract and bide their time until the economy turns around. Then they start to kick up a fuss, complaining as loudly and widely as they can about the injustice of waiting 1300 days.

Take your own advice Hogprint and read between the lines....the union was stringing this whole deal out waiting for better economic times to bargain....

 

[Hawkered]

Family Guy

Whether you like it or not, you did accept a job with a company that had a union long before you came on the property. Maybe you were hired to bust the union, you have failed miserably.

I don't like the fact hat we have a union. I think the last union MEC botched the job completely and that you have cost the company millions in angry owners that won't renew. The reason I say this is because you literally screwed yourselves out of an opportunity by low-balling the last T/A. By doing this you've had worker discontent and angry owners waiting around for contract maintenance to change a cabin light bulb in broad daylight, you've had fatigue calls within 15 mins of a revenue flight and you've had guys that went for years without using sick time using nearly all of it.

Quite frankly, there's only one thing worse than a poorly organised union and that is bad management that can't measure the barometer of the workforce.

For crying out loud, GET 'R DONE!!!

Your basking in the failures of unions past or present while Rome is burning is doing nothing for the security of this company, NOR YOUR OWN JOB SECURITY!

I'm not a union guy, I'm not a family guy, I'm a pragmatist. You're all at fault, and you're all a bunch of idiots!