NetJets seniority

[FamilyGuy]

Family Guy

Your accounting of the core-fleet disposal is one that concerns me greatly. I know that you have to "hail to the chief", but clearly it is time for somebody to speak up before the emperor shows up without any clothes.

We have spoken before about the validity of higher utilisation of all of the aircraft types with the Marquis Jet Partners option effectively dividing possession of the aircraft into 1/32, or between any one of 32 parties. This is a far cry from the original "Quarter Share" marketing of our fractional founder.

Leveraged aviation purchases at airlines don't work, because the return on investment does not make the interest payment attractive over either the short or long term. Thats why we now have two completely "paper" airlines in this country consiting of JetBlue and Airtran. They have no real assets except the cash on hand to show that they can...go out and lease more aircraft. Much like Budget did just before they went bankrupt in the '80s..but that's another story.

Netjets is such a dynamically different operation than a business model that serves the same two dozen city pairs. With over 5,000 airports domestically in the United States alone, you have really screwed up any chance of recovering flights after an interruption in reliability. A Citation X broken down in Butte, Montana is going to sit there for three days if it breaks on a Friday evening. This problem is not the same as an A-320 in Long Beach or JFK for JetBlue being cared for by in-house line maintenance with a factory rep' looking over their shoulders.

What you have failed to realize is that by simply showing a reduction in a long-term lien against a core fleet aircraft, or for that matter, one that is owned but fully depreciated, you have cost us that expense multiplied by ten or fifteen flights over the weekend that our broken down Citation X in Butte could not cover. The short term costs have been astronomical.

I don't know if you guys did this to lower the staffing required for Part 91K, to drag out negotiations, or because you simply didn't know any better!

Leadership 101: When you screw up, admit it, ask for forgiveness and move on!!

Dixon Cider

I feel your pain man, but you're coming off as a real whack job, not somebody whose professional respect is based upon dignified behavior.

Hawkered - I dont think the selling of the core fleet is attributable to anything as sinister as what you alluded to at the end of your message.

For me, it appears to be a repeat of the problems we saw in 99-00. If you'll think back we go through these cycles every 4-5 years where demand skyrockets and we cant get the planes fast enough from the manufacturers. This causes our core fleet to shrink down to unacceptable levels and the sell offs to increase, and yes, to levels that are astronomical and unsustainable.

The flip side of this is that during the slow years the planes are coming in from the manufacturers at a much faster rate than we are selling them...something that is also unsustainable. You have to balance the supply and demand out....which as I pointed out earlier, is very difficult when supply has a 2-3 year lead time and demand changes in a matter of weeks or months.

I dont know why it is so hard to balance these two....but we do have to get better at it. I personally think we havent learned as a company to manage our sales. We've always been sell, sell, sell.....and then we have to try and find a way to support it. Shortsighted? yes. Should we be managing the sales to match aircraft supply? yes. but it is a good problem to have.

Your point on not selling the core because it is fully depreciated is way off base though. Think about our model....we buy aircraft and keep them for 10 years max, and then we are selling them and moving into newer aircraft fleets. look at the SII's, and now the Hawkers and Ultras.

The point is that you arent going to fully depreciate an aircraft over 10 years and it is not realistic for us to keep older, fully depreciated aircraft as the core fleet for the owners....they wouldnt accept them. We have to keep selling shares in the aircraft fleets and steadily moving the core to the newer fleets.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Look man, I tried to be civil, calm, cool, and collected. I am a professional in the cockpit as much as anyone. However, every man has limits. If it weren't for the anonymity, I wouldn't have given in so easily. That being said, I have no tolerance for gross stupidity from FG. His double talk of how he thinks pilots are great in one breath and in the next he talks about how the pilots are sh!tting on him, and we do our job poorly based on his opinions. Where is the professionalism on his part?

No whack job on my part, just fed up. Take care.

No double talk at all Dixon. Go back and read my posts. I've been very clear from the start that most of our pilots are great. Most of our pilots also do not post on this board. There is a small group of malcontents that seen intent on getting on this board and posting a bunch of misleading crap that does nothing but bash a very good company and denigrate the other employees. That I will not stand idly by and watch. Those malcontents are sh!tting all over the other employees and the company and you seem to be content in just watching the mugging.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Where do you guys get this number of 1.2M for Boisture anyways? I've seen it posted on this board several times, but have yet to see a reputable source of the info posted. Not that it matters anyways.....what do you think is fair pay for someone responsible for the livlihood of 4,000 employees and their families?

The company filings show his compensation package. Every CEO, or company presidents' earnings are public knowledge.

Dixon,
Really. Can you tell me where? What filings? I went to the website looking for both NJ and BH. Can you be more specific? Link? Please tell me exactly where you found this information.
Thanks.

Still waiting on an answer Dixon.

Where do you get this number? If what you are saying is accurate then its public information and you can post it. Why the delay?

 

[Hawkered]

Family Guy

You are wrong about the tolerance levels of the owners to older aircraft. Many of our sell-offs are given to older aircraft than made up your core fleet disposal plan anyway.

When you look at the worldwide succes of many of the chain restaurants, the focus has always been one of a homogenous product and a predictable outcome. By engaging in large numbers of sell-offs you are not really controlling either and are just looking like any other broker.

Let me give you a good example.

The other day I was in an area of Chicago where a Hawker 800A was parked with no crew anywhere to be found. It was an aircraft I had flown at a prior employer and I knew it to be manufactured in 1993. I then introduced myself to several customers in the lounge, believing they might be ours. They were.

I went to the pilot lounge and identified myself to the two sleeping bodies in lazy boys, one who had a full beard, (how's that Eros mask gonna seal over that thing), and neither in anything that resembled a uniform. The customers looked at me in disgust.

I contacted Owner Services and they gave me a defensive line about the small writing in the customers contract. Now what tools does that offer me to appease these people?

Whether we look at the chain burger example where a Big Mac in Moscow is the same as it is in New York, or even Yellow Cab between New York or Chicago, its the predictability of the end product that gives the customers a sense of security in their purchasing decisions and lets them feel they're not getting ripped off.

Sir, you have also taken a somewhat defensive position on an honest question regarding the disposal of a valuable asset in what was the company core fleet. Your team also managed to achieve this in the most depressed used aircraft market in almost thirty years. You will note that The Berkshire Hathaway statements for 2003 and even 2004 also reflected this negatively.

I accept the fact that there are not as many tax advantages to a fully depreciated aircraft, but it has one major advantage to a sell-off. It costs you less, and sell-offs leave you with nothing but a box full of receipts. Not only this but you left a great number of employees who came here on the promise of a quick upgrade on FO/FO pay for almost two and a half years. The costs to morale have been, perhaps, as high as the enormous burden of the sell-offs.

You speak of the challenges of the fractional market, yet you're undeterred in selling as many Marquis Cards as you can, thereby alienating your real owners. Your response...blame those nasty pilots?

I have been approached by two airlines and even this company to go into management and once or twice I have considered it. I am not looking for another job and wouldn't mind sticking around here until I retire, but you guys do have me worried!

Lastly, I don't feel that your response to Dixon Cider was in any way an extension of the olive branch. He may have drank a little union kool aid, he may think that I drank too much that was given to me by the company, but at the end of the day we respect each other and plan to continue getting along as professional peers.

I don't care what Mr Boisture makes. I want us all to make a decent living. I hope he and everyone else makes as much money as they think they're worth and that we all get our focus back on securing the needed talent to make this company the best company it can be.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Family Guy
You are wrong about the tolerance levels of the owners to older aircraft. Many of our sell-offs are given to older aircraft than made up your core fleet disposal plan anyway.

When you look at the worldwide succes of many of the chain restaurants, the focus has always been one of a homogenous product and a predictable outcome. By engaging in large numbers of sell-offs you are not really controlling either and are just looking like any other broker.

Hawkered - I agree with you that consistency and predictability of the product is a key to continued success. That is also why I will stick with my original point that the owners will push back on the older aircraft. Yes, many of our sell-offs are to older aircraft, but that does not mean the owners like it. Our core fleet should be on the same level as the rest of the fleet that the owners buy into.

Family Guy
Let me give you a good example.

The other day I was in an area of Chicago where a Hawker 800A was parked with no crew anywhere to be found. It was an aircraft I had flown at a prior employer and I knew it to be manufactured in 1993. I then introduced myself to several customers in the lounge, believing they might be ours. They were.

I went to the pilot lounge and identified myself to the two sleeping bodies in lazy boys, one who had a full beard, (how's that Eros mask gonna seal over that thing), and neither in anything that resembled a uniform. The customers looked at me in disgust.

I contacted Owner Services and they gave me a defensive line about the small writing in the customers contract. Now what tools does that offer me to appease these people?

Whether we look at the chain burger example where a Big Mac in Moscow is the same as it is in New York, or even Yellow Cab, its the predictability of the end product that gives the customers a sense of security in their purchasing decisions and lets them feel they're not getting ripped off.

Agreed. The example you cited is not acceptable and we should be exercising greater discretion in securing additional lift for the fleet.

Family Guy
Sir, you have also taken a somewhat defensive position on an honest question regarding the disposal of a valuable asset in what was the company core fleet. Your team also managed to achieve this in the most depressed used aircraft market in almost thirty years. You will note that The Berkshire Hathaway statements for 2003 and even 2004 also reflected this negatively.

I accept the fact that there are not as many tax advantages to a fully depreciated aircraft, but it has one major advantage to a sell-off. It costs you less, and sell-offs leave you with nothing but a box full of receipts. Not only this but you left a great number of employees who came here on the promise of a quick upgrade on FO/FO pay for almost two and a half years. The costs to morale have been, perhaps, as high as the enormous burden of the sell-offs.

Ed - you are talking like we sold these aircraft out of the program and thereby eliminated additional jobs for pilots. Nothing could be further from the truth. The reduction in the core fleet has occurred because we sold more shares in the fleet. We simply have been selling shares faster than they are being delivered. This does not result in a reduction of pilot jobs.

Simply put, the program is oversold, much like it was in 99-00. We need to slow down the sales and start matching them to aircraft deliveries.

Family Guy
You speak of the challenges of the fractional market, yet you're undeterred in selling as many Marquis Cards as you can, thereby alienating your real owners. Your response...blame those nasty pilots?

You've lost me on this one ed. I dont know where my responses have led you to believe that I've blamed the pilots for being oversold, or that I agree with selling as many Marquis cards as we can.

I agree that an oversold program alienates our real owners. I also think I've been clear that we should manage our sales more closely and make sure they do not exceed our supply of aircraft. Is it hard to say no to a potential owner? Sure, but that is definitely preferable to selling off flights to charter. I also think that having a wait list to get into the program lends itself to that air of exclusivity and increases the desirability of the product.

Family Guy
Lastly, I don't feel that your response to Dixon Cider was in any way an extension of the olive branch. He may have drank a little union kool aid, he may think that I drank too much that was given to me by the company, but at the end of the day we respect each other and plan to continue getting along as professional peers.

I didnt know I was supposed to extend an olive branch to Dixon. As you pointed out a couple days ago, I have tried to take the high road and not engage in profanities, grade school name calling, and personal attacks.

I will always try to respect my fellow employees and treat them professionally, but if anyone wants an olive branch from me then I need to see positive steps from the opposing party that indicates that they are ready to act like mature adults and conduct themselves like professionals on this board.

Family Guy
I don't care what Mr Boisture makes. I want us all to make a decent living. I hope he and everyone else makes as much money as they think they're worth and that we all get our focus back on securing the needed talent to make this company the best company it can be.

Agreed.

 

[FAcFriend]

FG&hawkered

Well, I have always thought you guys spoke level headed about had great insight about business. I love listening (reading) your posts about the strength of the brand, branding strategy, the analogy to MCD's, etc.

FF

 

[Hawkered]

Family Guy

Thanks for the quick and very respectful reply, and for you to be doing this outside of normal business hours shows enormous care, concern and passion for the company and by extension, the pilot group.

Please understand that many of the pilot group see many problems that are not being addressed. One is the conduct of a certain salesman who knows absolutely nothing about the plane specifics and enters aircraft without introduction and without prominently displaying his ID. We have CPs with extremely poor system knowledge, training done by vendors that don't know or even care about our SOPs and FBO standards that would be poor in developing nations...Jackson Hole being one of them, and charter operators that are flying as vendors that aren't even close.

Many of these problems can be related by pilots who feel they are being employed at a fair rate of compensation and who feel that the company values them as an asset rather than the liability that these extended negotiations have made many people feel.

You're a good guy, I can tell, hopefully you've got friends up there that share your ideals and we can get this show back on the road.

 

[Lie_n_wait01]

Seniority means very little at NJA. The schedules are awarded on seniority but not with the right percentages. Trips are not assigned based on seniority but rather who kisses arse more. Airplanes assignments are based on whats available at the time of the employment offer. Vacations are the only schedule that is truly seniority based without outside influence.

As always its a sh!t job so make sure you aware entering this venture with eyes wide open.

FRACSTER....PERHAPS YOUVE BEEN KISSING THE WRONG ARSE!!!!!
DONT TAKE IT OUT ON US!!!! LEARN HOW TO PLAY THE GAME!!!!!! and be sure when you pucker up, you do it to the right ARSE!!!!!!

 

[FLYLOW22]

Just can't wait till Friday. I need some exercise.

 

[El Chupacabra]

Just can't wait till Friday. I need some exercise.

TGIF
​

Going on Walk About.​

 

[squonk]

I'm a walk'n....yes indeed, and I'm a hope'n that you'll come walk with me........

 

[FamilyGuy]

Family Guy

Thanks for the quick and very respectful reply, and for you to be doing this outside of normal business hours shows enormous care, concern and passion for the company and by extension, the pilot group.

Please understand that many of the pilot group see many problems that are not being addressed. One is the conduct of a certain salesman who knows absolutely nothing about the plane specifics and enters aircraft without introduction and without prominently displaying his ID. We have CPs with extremely poor system knowledge, training done by vendors that don't know or even care about our SOPs and FBO standards that would be poor in developing nations...Jackson Hole being one of them, and charter operators that are flying as vendors that aren't even close.

Many of these problems can be related by pilots who feel they are being employed at a fair rate of compensation and who feel that the company values them as an asset rather than the liability that these extended negotiations have made many people feel.

You're a good guy, I can tell, hopefully you've got friends up there that share your ideals and we can get this show back on the road.

ed - thank you for the kind reply. I'm happy to say that most of the people here in the flight center share my ideals. Yes, we all have our challenges, but pretty much everyone here tries to do their best every day.

Do we have problems? Yes. But its been my experience that every place has problems. There is no perfect company out there. As you solve some of the problems, you encounter new ones...its just a fact of life. Still, all in all, this is the best company I've found....so its my intention to stay here and work on solving the problems, not sit back and lament them.

You bring up some interesting issues. I wont claim to have the answers to them, as most of them have nothing to do with my job here. But I have to ask...who have these problems been reported to?

Is it a case of the problems being reported and nothing being done to rectify them, or are the issues not getting reported and addressed? Another possibility is that your point may be valid, but there are little to no better options...for example your point on the FBO at Jackson Hole...it happens to be the only FBO on the field.

We've been asked to refer all crew reported issues to the crew resource center for follow up. I understand that they have done a good job of following up issues that the crews have encountered. I'd recommend starting there with these issues. Hopefully they can get some of these problems resolved.

 

[FamilyGuy]

I'm a walk'n....yes indeed, and I'm a hope'n that you'll come walk with me........

Come on squonk...that too obvious. You need to go for some of the more obscure lyrics.... like these....

#1
Now i'm not looking for absolution
Forgiveness for the things i do
But before you come to any conclusions
Try walking in my shoes
You'll stumble in my footsteps
Keep the same appointments i kept
If you try walking in my shoes
Morality would frown upon
Indecency looked down upon
The scapegoat fate's made of me
But i promise now, my judge and jurors
My intentions couldn't have been purer
My case is easy to see
I'm not looking for a clearer conscience
Peace of mind after what i've been through
And before we talk of any repentance
Try walking in my shoes
You'll stumble in my footsteps
Keep the same appointments i kept
If you try walking in my shoes
Try walking in my shoes
Now i'm not looking for absolution
Forgiveness for the things i do
But before you come to any conclusions
Try walking in my shoes
You'll stumble in my footsteps
Keep the same appointments i kept
If you try walking in my shoes


#2
And the walking man walks
Doesn't know nothing at all
Any other man stops and talks
But the walking man walks on by
Walk on by

Most everybody's got seed to sow
It ain't always easy for a weed to grow, oh no
So he don't hoe the row for no one
Oh for sure he's always missing
And something is never quite right
Ah, but who would want to listen to you
Kissing his existence good night

Walking man walk on by my door
Well, any other man stops and talks
But not the walking man
He's the walking man
Born to walk
Walk on walking man
Well now, would he have wings to fly
Would he be free
Golden wings against the sky
Walking man, walk on by
So long, walking man, so long


#3
You're walking on thin ice
You'll have to pay the price
You just don't listen
You never take advice
But i've got to warn you
You'd better heed my mind
While you walk on thin ice
I'm right behind
You're treading a tight-rope
You know you're going to fall
You just don't listen
Think you can have it all

 

[squonk]

Family Guy, you do have talent!

Put a guitar in his hand and I think we've found the entertainment for this years Christmas hangar party!

Now lets all sing along!........

Because your mine....I walk the line.....

 

[gunfyter]

Fractional Aviation Blues

I hear the plane a comin'
Its rollin round the bend
and I ain't seen a new contract
since I don't know when

I'm stuck at NJA
and time keeps draggin on
and those planes keep a goin' to a service center
on down to San Antone...

When I was just a baby
My momma told me son
Don't ever fly for a living
only fly for fun

But I fly a jet for rich folks
just to pass the time.
When I see my paycheck
I hang my head and cry

I bet there's rich folks eatin'
in those fancy jets of ours
I bet they're drinkin' coffee
and smokin big cigars

But I know I had it comin
I know I can't be free.
But those people keep a movin'
and thats what tortures me....

Well if they free me from this prison
If this union gets released
I'll be walking proudly
on the Picket line
Far from fractional aviation
thats where I want to be...