NetJets seniority

[Dixon Cider]

Welcome to negotiations.... Guess what...both sides think their positions are reasonable and justifiable. I suggest you turn things around and look at it from the other sides perspective.

Its not about what you want, its about what you need and can live with.

Well thats basically what I want.

 

[Ultra Grump]

So all these guys that have been around....surely they have experience at looking at the books...or know someone that does. So why the delay?

How long can the MEC delay looking at the financials before their members start to ask why?

How long can they spend talking about other things when the membership clearly says that the most important thing is pay?

Its now been 10 months....I guess we still have 26 to go before the membership gets frustrated

Hey SmartGuy, I'm sure you've seen the latest "Bargaining Update" from On High, right? Maybe you chose not to read the part about the company and union putting the financial review on hold to facilitate their accelerated bargaining schedule through 9/15. Read the info (propaganda) provided to you by the company, and some of your stupid questions might just be answered by management themselves.

 

[Dixon Cider]

Where do you guys get this number of 1.2M for Boisture anyways? I've seen it posted on this board several times, but have yet to see a reputable source of the info posted. Not that it matters anyways.....what do you think is fair pay for someone responsible for the livlihood of 4,000 employees and their families?

Still don't know how to break up a quote and comment so this will have to do.
So if we are responsible for someone and his/her family that is worth 20 billion, I think what we are asking is reasonable.

As for the aggresive expansion, I figured you guys would support this...it means the company is growing and most of that growth translates directly into more pilot jobs and more pilot dues for the union. What's your gripe with that?

Expansion yes, but not aggressive, that cost you and I money. Pay us what we are worth, then expand all you want.

The company has already said that NJA makes a profit and they are willing to give pilots a raise that reflects that profitability. So whats the problem?

Better knock the chip off your shoulder. I haven't given you an attitude, but you certainly carry one. There is no problem. They are not offering a true raise. What they are offering is a redistribution of funds. Sure give us more money, but don't make us work more days for it. Like I said, it isn't a raise, just a shell game. Labor is a cost of doing business and is seperate from profit. Ask FLYLOW22, he know the exact wording. So when we check out of a hotel, should the company tell the hotel that profits are down, so we can only afford to pay 40% of this bill?

Care to do any more flip-flopping?

Get yer head out of your ass. I said I/we give 100%, not 110% in both post. Where is the flip-flop?

Despite your protestations, the pilot group is sh!tting on us. Just look at all the derogatory references to flight center personnel, managers, executives, and owners on this board.

So you are stereotyping 95% of the pilots on this board because of 5%. That's real class on your part. I have several friends upstairs. Love 'em like brothers. I have never said anything of the sort. So who is personally attacking who here?

I too have been here for years. I know that most of our pilots are great people and that most of the crap that I see on this board is done by a small group of malcontents. But these malcontents seem to be running the show. If you dont agree with their actions why dont you speak up and cry foul? If you fail to speak up then you shouldnt be surprised that people assume you agree with their actions.

Why should I. You bring it upon yourself. I haven't posted here much. So as somewhat of an outsider, you make yourself look like an ass. So if most of our pilots (your quote)are good guys, why do you say that "pilots are sh!tting on you". Make it clear that a small percentage of pilots are doing the sh!tting. You just group us all together. Therefore you get what you deserve.

And as for the legality issue, I suggest you start educating yourself on the RLA and what is permitted, or else you'll quickly find yourself in the same boat as the APA at American Airlines. Bottom line is that while in negotiations the company is not permitted to change any operating rules and the union is not allowed to deviate from standard operating procedure. Your increased rate of DNIF and bullsh!t writeups could end up costing you a multi-million dollar settlement.

Studied the RLA in college, know it well, thank you. Show me a BS write up. It is black and white, cut and dry. There are no gray areas. If it is not in the MEL, it is broke. Can't argue that one. If the DNIF rate is up, that is because we quit flying sick or borderline sick. Can't argue that one either.

Either you guys start controlling the renegades or you will all pay for their actions.

All you renegaders, STOP!!!!!!!!!! Happy now?

Sounds to me like your anger is misplaced. The company bargained in good faith with your duly appointed representatives and reached an agreement with them in late 2004.

I didn't vote for those d!ckheads. They never asked us what we wanted except once and that was 4 years before the TA was reached. They had no clue what we wanted. That is why they were voted out by 85%. You are the one who has misplaced anger. You are angry at me and the other 95% that you have deemed the renegades.

The pilots didnt approve of that agreement and voted it down, which is their right. They also voted out the old leaders and replaced them with a group that you feel is more in tune with what you want.

Addressed above.

The company has been right there, willing to negotiate with any representative you care to put forward. They have also been instrumental in getting a better deal done in just 10 months.

Because they HAVE too.

To go back to your analogy - the company can only deal with the people you put forward. If your representatives are out of touch, who's fault is that? Why are you hostile to the company for your MEC being out of touch?

Again, I am not hostile, yet you continue to stereotype me and the other 95% with the 5%'ers. You yourself said that most of the pilots here are great people. What, can't the "great pilots" come on this public board and post their thoughts and concerns? It is ok for you to do it, but not me? You must be friends with my ex-wife!!

The company claims to have offered all NJ books for review. What books do you want to see that they have not offered? Geico? Dairy Queen?

I dont think NetJets has access to those, and I dont think they are pertinent to these negotiations.

That right there my friend are the key words. "The company CLAIMS to have offer all of the NJ books. They have not. Gecko and DQ, NO. But there are certain areas of Netjets' books that the company won't give up.

Yes, I am a family guy. That is what is truly important to me. I have the same money concerns that you do. I could use a few extra dollars, who couldnt? But am I willing to burn down my house to get it? No thanks.

Burn it down? Depends if they want to offer fair pay. If they don't, I could care less if it does or not. I won't be here to see it.

So you fly the richest people in the world around. Big deal. Does that mean you are entitled to something? It sounds like you feel that way in your mind.

I am entitled fair pay. Again, lose the chip.

You are entitled to a fair days pay for a fair days work. Nothing more, nothing less.

That is all we are asking for. You just don't get it. You are perceiving something that is not there.

NJA is making a profit and they've put a respectable raise on the table that puts you ahead of Flight Options, FlexJet, and Citiation Shares. As you and many other pilots on this board have already acknowledged, you already have much better work rules and conditions than our competitors. What else do you want?

From my perspective, you want airline rules and Corporate flight dept pay. Aint gonna happen. You need to make up your mind which business model you want to be compared to. You cant cherry pick the best of both worlds. When you do that the managers have to do their jobs and protect the business. They cant agree to terms that would cause the company to lose money....this would put everyone out of a job.

We are neither airlines or corporate. We are our own animal. You claim that we are comparing us to them. Well you just did it too. We are fractional, we set our own standards. We can't be compared to either, why are you demanding we choose one? Labor is a cost of doing business. If it was properly managed, EVERYONE could get a fair raise and the company could still return money to the share holders.

I'm beginning to understand why people here feel the way they do about you.
Lose the attitude.

 

[Sarka]

NO YOU DON'T! Just like Fracster said earlier, we have been given the big picture brush off so many times that most of us (including me) will not bother to point out stupid scheduling any more. For example; I was briefed to ferry an Excel From ATL to BZN (Bozman, MT) to do a 0.7 Owner flight. I called everyone I could at Bridgeway to raise the BS flag. Of course no one cared and I ended up doing an almost 4 hour ferry for a 0.7 revenue leg.
You guys talk a better game than you practice.

Did you ever think that there may be some explaination or extenuating circumstances behind the reason we ferried an aircraft 4 hour for a .7 trip? Or, do you just prefer to think that the schedulers are really that incompetant that they cannot see the waste in doing something like you have described, too? I could speculate on several reasons why somehting like this could occur. Most likely, the owner refused other options that had been presented or there were no other options. Many times our hands our tied by circumstances beyond our control and we are forced into ferrying aircraft great distances to meet the owners needs or wants. After all, isn't that our mission? To meet the owners needs?

The bottom line of the company affects our pay raises also. Do you think any of us want to make the company (our livelihood) less profitable? If so, you are delusional. I cringe every time I see that we have had to ferry an aircraft excessive amount to cover a small trip. But, most times there are reasons behind it. Like it or not, there are times that we have to do things that may not be the MOST efficient use of our assets.

I know people on this board (and in the puzzle palace) say that the pilot's don't have the "big picture" (a term I personnally despise). I can only speak for myself and from what I have seen or experienced. I'd say there are times you don't have all of the facts. Just as there are times that we (schedulers) don't have all the facts. We (like you) base our decisions on the information we have available at the time. Sometimes, bad decisions are made because of faulty or lack of information (on both sides). The biggest problem we have here is that the information is not being communicated (to everyone that needs to know), being mis-communicate, being ignored or being misunderstood.

You say you called everyone you could at Bridgeway to raise the BS flag and nobody cared. My question is, did you just say it was BS or ask for a reason behind it? Who were you asking and did they have all of the info?

I will agree that many times the full and correct information is not getting communicated to the crews, but you are adding to the problem by not communicating your observations and concerns when we all should be trying to find better solutions to the problems. I am not laying all of the blame on you either. There is enough to go around for all of us. The thing we should be doing is trying to find solutions instead of bashing each other and trying to place blame.

Once again, I ask. How is bashing scheduling or any other department or group on a public forum advancing your cause? How is not communicating with your co-workers going to increase your chances of getting what you are seeking?

It isn't. So, please leave those of us who have nothing to do with the current contract negotiations out of your public beef with the company. Please.

 

[squonk]

Family Guy said,

To go back to your analogy - the company can only deal with the people you put forward. If your representatives are out of touch, who's fault is that? Why are you hostile to the company for your MEC being out of touch?

Please explain how our reps are out of touch? I think we have shown numerous time how this company is WAY out of touch.

The ball is in their court....

 

[Bad Monkey!]

Did you ever think that there may be some explaination or extenuating circumstances behind the reason we ferried an aircraft 4 hour for a .7 trip? Or, do you just prefer to think that the schedulers are really that incompetant that they cannot see the waste in doing something like you have described, too? QUOTE]

Sorry,

my vote is incompetant.

How about two different airplanes from east coast to west coast?? Bueller?? anyone??

Can't tell me there wasn't an airplane between NYC and LA to do the trip.

More waste.

 

[Fozzy]

So all these guys that have been around....surely they have experience at looking at the books...or know someone that does. So why the delay?

How long can the MEC delay looking at the financials before their members start to ask why?

How long can they spend talking about other things when the membership clearly says that the most important thing is pay?

Its now been 10 months....I guess we still have 26 to go before the membership gets frustrated

FamilyGuy,

For the last time, WE DON'T CARE ABOUT THE BOOKS. Give it a fing rest. None of the pilots care. WE DON'T CARE! Make sure you pass that along to your boss's. IF the money is not there (which I do not believe, but lets make believe), we still do not care. They will just have to raise management fees. Period. I don't care if we loose some owners (which won't happen), raise the rates. These are rates that "we are keeping artificially low".

Now so you can stop saying the same fing thing over and over like it will make us turn on the Union. WE DON'T CARE ABOUT THE BOOKS. They are doing what WE want.
You sound like a skipping record. Please shut up.

 

[Majik]

Do we rely on the crews to help us catch mistakes like this? Certainly. At least we used to. I find it very unfortunate that we (as a company) are no longer working as a team due to the current contract situation and cannot rely on each other to help avoid mistakes rather than help facilitate them (as you did in this case). Imagine if you could not rely on your co-pilot to let you know if you missed an item on your checklist or missed a radio call or forgot to put the gear down. We are in a sad situation when we no longer look after each other and actually look for ways to make each other look bad.

If I created tension in my cockpit like Santulli has in this company, I would fully expect my co-pilot to do nothing to help cover my ass unless my actions were going to directly endanger his. I guess it's hard to get someone to go above and beyond their basic job description when you jerk them around with false promises for four years. Doesn't shock me at all and I seriously doubt that you are really shocked too.

I also find it ironic that you do not realize that you (along with the scheduler) are directly responsible for hosing over one (or most likely several) of your other crews that had to recover for this mistake. I'm sure those crews were very happy about that, too. Not to mention the owner(s) that were affected.

Who's getting hosed over by their own crewmembers? We are on the hook to work up to 14 hours per day and scheduling seems to make sure that they keep you on for the whole 14. Maybe I used to feel "hosed" when I would get a trip and try to turn the plane in under 30 minutes. I don't hurry any more and, since I'm going to work 14 hours anyway, I don't feel hosed. It is what it is and will get worse until Santulli decides it needs to get better. I'm actually happy when I have to cover another crew's trip because it means they are doing their job and not cutting corners or taking unnecessary risks.

Lastly, I cannot fathom how actions such as this will have any benefit to you and your negotiations? Will something like this make management want to pay you more? Will it make the owners want to pay more for your services?
I don't think so. Then again, I am a moron and an idiot.

Santulli is the only one that can agree to increase our pay. Would Santulli like to have more productive employees, or are things just fine and we'll keep the status quo on pay and pilot productivity (or unproductivity)? The choice is his. He is the one that will find the money, either through cutting waste and looking for efficiencies, checking rampant expansion, or increasing management fees. I don't really care which he chooses but there's going to come a time where he's going to have to sh!t or get off the pot. We're just trying to help him make up his mind.

Sorry you feel caught in the middle, which you are. Hang in there and hopefully Santulli will reach his decision point soon and we can all go back to being one happy family. Until then, hunker down and ride it out.

 

[Sarka]

Nice post Majik. At least you are directing your frustrations towards someone that actually has something to do with your current contract situation.

The rest of us (at least most of us) just want to do our jobs and move on. Believe it or not, many of us do understand your frustrations, but the anamosity created by some on this board is doing nothing for your cause.

Sorry you feel caught in the middle, which you are. Hang in there and hopefully Santulli will reach his decision point soon and we can all go back to being one happy family. Until then, hunker down and ride it out.

I'm trying and good luck to you.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Where do you guys get this number of 1.2M for Boisture anyways? I've seen it posted on this board several times, but have yet to see a reputable source of the info posted. Not that it matters anyways.....what do you think is fair pay for someone responsible for the livlihood of 4,000 employees and their families?

So if we are responsible for someone and his/her family that is worth 20 billion, I think what we are asking is reasonable.

Why dont you just answer the questions?

You asked for answers from me earlier, and I provided them. You should reciprocate instead of dodging the questions.

And 20 billion? Isn't that a little bit of an exaggeration?

Let's face it....billionaires will have their own aircraft, not fly in a fractional program (overlooking WB, who owns the company). Not to mention the fact that there are only 3 people in the US worth 20 billion.

The company has already said that NJA makes a profit and they are willing to give pilots a raise that reflects that profitability. So whats the problem?

Better knock the chip off your shoulder. I haven't given you an attitude, but you certainly carry one. There is no problem. They are not offering a true raise. What they are offering is a redistribution of funds. Sure give us more money, but don't make us work more days for it. Like I said, it isn't a raise, just a shell game. Labor is a cost of doing business and is seperate from profit. Ask FLYLOW22, he know the exact wording. So when we check out of a hotel, should the company tell the hotel that profits are down, so we can only afford to pay 40% of this bill?

Chip? It was a simple statement and question. No attitude...so stop getting your panties in a wad. You should look in the mirror if you want to see an attitude.

I'm not going to claim to have the details of the raise offered or how it compares to current. Suffice it to say that everyone in the flight center supports the pilots in getting a raise (yes, a true raise) and being paid fairly for their contributions.

I would recommend steering clear of the hotel analogy though...from what I understand the hotel rates nationwide (including NetJets) have gone down significantly since 9/11.

Get yer head out of your ass. I said I/we give 100%, not 110% in both post. Where is the flip-flop?

The flip-flop is simple. Go back and read the thread.

You first claimed that "we aren't performing POORLY, we just quit giving 110%. Now we just give 100%. We do EXACTLY what we are supposed to. Nothing more, nothing less. We do our job."

When I pointed out several examples of poor performances and illegal job actions, you changed your tune, denying engaging in any of those actions and claiming "I give 100%. What I said was, I quit giving 110%."

Now, when called on it you want to go back and change your tune again.

Despite your protestations, the pilot group is sh!tting on us. Just look at all the derogatory references to flight center personnel, managers, executives, and owners on this board.

So you are stereotyping 95% of the pilots on this board because of 5%. That's real class on your part. I have several friends upstairs. Love 'em like brothers. I have never said anything of the sort. So who is personally attacking who here?

No stereotyping at all. 95% of the posts on this board are crap, and they are posted by the same small group of malcontents.

Go back and read my posts....you'll see that I've repeatedly said that most of our pilots are great and I'm honored to work with them.

And if you do have several friends upstairs, whom you 'love like brothers', then why havent you spoken up in their defense when your peers are on here trashing everyone upstairs? Sounds like a friend I would want in my corner....

I too have been here for years. I know that most of our pilots are great people and that most of the crap that I see on this board is done by a small group of malcontents. But these malcontents seem to be running the show. If you dont agree with their actions why dont you speak up and cry foul? If you fail to speak up then you shouldnt be surprised that people assume you agree with their actions.

Why should I. You bring it upon yourself.

WRONG. This crap has been on this board long before I started posting. I finally couldnt stand to see the lies, baseless allegations, and smear tactics anymore so I decided to start posting to provide a balanced viewpoint for all non NJ people.

Studied the RLA in college, know it well, thank you. Show me a BS write up. It is black and white, cut and dry. There are no gray areas. If it is not in the MEL, it is broke. Can't argue that one. If the DNIF rate is up, that is because we quit flying sick or borderline sick. Can't argue that one either.

I posted several BS writeups (tootsie roll, removing fuel placards) All you could say was you dont do them. If you really have studied the RLA, then you'll know it wont matter to the judge whether you personally engaged in that act or not. You've asked to be represented collectively and you'll be judged collectively.

Sounds to me like your anger is misplaced. The company bargained in good faith with your duly appointed representatives and reached an agreement with them in late 2004.

I didn't vote for those d!ckheads. They never asked us what we wanted except once and that was 4 years before the TA was reached. They had no clue what we wanted. That is why they were voted out by 85%. You are the one who has misplaced anger. You are angry at me and the other 95% that you have deemed the renegades.

You've been here 7 years and you didnt vote for them?

It really doesnt matter if you did or did not. A majority of your peers did, which made them your duly appointed representatives.

Again, if they didnt accurately represent what the pilot group wanted, whose fault is that? Just answer the question...

The company has been right there, willing to negotiate with any representative you care to put forward. They have also been instrumental in getting a better deal done in just 10 months.

Because they HAVE too.

If you're conspiracy theories are correct, then the company could have easily stretched this more than 10 months, especially after the pilots changed MEC's and Locals.

To go back to your analogy - the company can only deal with the people you put forward. If your representatives are out of touch, who's fault is that? Why are you hostile to the company for your MEC being out of touch?

Again, I am not hostile, yet you continue to stereotype me and the other 95% with the 5%'ers. You yourself said that most of the pilots here are great people. What, can't the "great pilots" come on this public board and post their thoughts and concerns? It is ok for you to do it, but not me? You must be friends with my ex-wife!!

No, it doesnt sound like you're hostile at all...

Please just answer the question...if its the union representatives that were out of touch and not accurately representing what the pilots wanted, then why does the pilot group have so much hostility towards the company and want to blame them for three wasted years?

That right there my friend are the key words. "The company CLAIMS to have offer all of the NJ books. They have not. Gecko and DQ, NO. But there are certain areas of Netjets' books that the company won't give up.

So again, answer the question - What books do you want to see that the company doesnt want to show?

Yes, I am a family guy. That is what is truly important to me. I have the same money concerns that you do. I could use a few extra dollars, who couldnt? But am I willing to burn down my house to get it? No thanks.

Burn it down? Depends if they want to offer fair pay. If they don't, I could care less if it does or not. I won't be here to see it.

So what's fair? If you have better work rules, better conditions, work fewer days, and get paid more than the other fractionals, is that fair?

We are neither airlines or corporate. We are our own animal. You claim that we are comparing us to them. Well you just did it too. We are fractional, we set our own standards. We can't be compared to either, why are you demanding we choose one?

Exactly. We are fractional and any comparisons should be made to other fractionals. So why do I constantly see people on this board saying they want corporate flight dept pay? or airline style hard day off schedules?

Again - If you have better work rules, better conditions, work fewer days, and get paid more than the other fractionals, is that fair?