NetJets seniority

[Starman]

don't worry Fac - we're getting the job done. You just don't like that we're doing it. Tough crap.

 

[Diesel]

Last time my paycheck was cashed it said netjets on it. We were told that we were "allowed in because it's the right thing to do." Ummmm we work at Netjets are you saying we aren't employees.

There are 2000 + pilots here at netjets. Of course we're going to talk about.

Oh and i love the press.

I am telling the company to get the job done. Every day I go to work.

 

[Fracster]

Heres another example of NutJets BS!

I will keep it non-specific so that the morons on this board cant get back at the crew.

They were airlined to A. Get to the FBO and preflight the plane. The plane is broke so they are shut down a few hours later. They get to the hotel and are given a brief for the next day. Now, remember they are at airport A because the brief they get for the next day has them picking up a different plane out of a different airport over 1000 miles away and not even the airport they were supposed to go the first afternoon. They dont say anything about it because the mighty schedulers know everything and the pilots dont know the big picture.

The next morning the crew pages in that they are not at airport B but infact at airport A where they airlined in the night before. After some chaos in the puzzle palace this crew gets a call from their respective CP asking them why they didnt call in the night before to tell scheduling where they were.

Im listening to this guy and wondering why he didnt go off on the CP but he said he kept his cool. I would have ripped the CP a new one for even questioning me.

So basically we cant tell scheduling what to because we dont have the big picture but they can yell at us for not fixing some of their incredibly stupid mistakes.

Go ahead Family Guy, Dispatch or any other idiot who wants to defend those morons in scheduling.

 

[miles otoole]

Heres another example of NutJets BS!

I will keep it non-specific so that the morons on this board cant get back at the crew.


The next morning the crew pages in that they are not at airport B but infact at airport A where they airlined in the night before. After some chaos in the puzzle palace this crew gets a call from their respective CP asking them why they didnt call in the night before to tell scheduling where they were.

Nah, they'll never figure out who it was.

 

[Sarka]

Heres another example of NutJets BS!

I will keep it non-specific so that the morons on this board cant get back at the crew.

They were airlined to A. Get to the FBO and preflight the plane. The plane is broke so they are shut down a few hours later. They get to the hotel and are given a brief for the next day. Now, remember they are at airport A because the brief they get for the next day has them picking up a different plane out of a different airport over 1000 miles away and not even the airport they were supposed to go the first afternoon. They dont say anything about it because the mighty schedulers know everything and the pilots dont know the big picture.

The next morning the crew pages in that they are not at airport B but infact at airport A where they airlined in the night before. After some chaos in the puzzle palace this crew gets a call from their respective CP asking them why they didnt call in the night before to tell scheduling where they were.

Im listening to this guy and wondering why he didnt go off on the CP but he said he kept his cool. I would have ripped the CP a new one for even questioning me.

So basically we cant tell scheduling what to because we dont have the big picture but they can yell at us for not fixing some of their incredibly stupid mistakes.

Go ahead Family Guy, Dispatch or any other idiot who wants to defend those morons in scheduling.

I guess since I am already one of the "morons in scheduling" and an idiot, I'll respond.

There are many factors that could contribute to the situation you describe. Obviously, the biggest is a breakdown in communication between the current day schedulers and the next day schedulers. When your aircraft broke, the next day scheduler either did not get informed or got too busy and missed the change in location. Should this stuff happen? No. Does it? Yes, unfortunately. As with many of you, schedulers many times feel overworked and understaffed also. And (believe it or not) we are human and make mistakes.

Take your story and multiply it by 100 or more. You deal with one aircraft, one crew and maybe 2 or 3 owner trips a day. We deal with hundreds of aircraft, hundreds of crews and hundreds of trips a day. Each day a scheduler will have to deal with numerous situations like the one you describe. Many times they are handling numerous "incidents" simultaneously. Is that an excuse. No, but it is a contributing factor that needs to be considered before labeling someone a moron or an idiot.

It also shows that our automated briefing system has some kinks that need to be worked out. If you were briefed by a member of crew services (in person) as it had been previously, then they might have also caught the mistake. I guess that it is unfortunate that with all of the technological advances we have made that we can no longer depend on crewmembers to speak up when they receive a bogus brief anymore.

Should the scheduler(s) have caught this? Yes. Unfortunately, there is no sure fire way to prevent incidents such as this. There is no indication from the software we use that indicates that a crewmember is at or not at a certain location if you have trips assigned to your next day duty line. If you do not have trips assigned, the software does show your last location, but with trips assigned it does not.

Do we rely on the crews to help us catch mistakes like this? Certainly. At least we used to. I find it very unfortunate that we (as a company) are no longer working as a team due to the current contract situation and cannot rely on each other to help avoid mistakes rather than help facilitate them (as you did in this case). Imagine if you could not rely on your co-pilot to let you know if you missed an item on your checklist or missed a radio call or forgot to put the gear down. We are in a sad situation when we no longer look after each other and actually look for ways to make each other look bad.

I also find it ironic that you do not realize that you (along with the scheduler) are directly responsible for hosing over one (or most likely several) of your other crews that had to recover for this mistake. I'm sure those crews were very happy about that, too. Not to mention the owner(s) that were affected.

Lastly, I cannot fathom how actions such as this will have any benefit to you and your negotiations? Will something like this make management want to pay you more? Will it make the owners want to pay more for your services?

I don't think so. Then again, I am a moron and an idiot.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Cmon, diesel. You are a smart man- when employees talk about "taking her down" it becomes everyone's business. If you didnt want employees to know or be involved then why do you plan to picket in Columbus?

If you didnt want employees to be involved why did you show up at the employee meeting passing out literature. Why talk about union business in ear shot of employees at FBO's?

Your union set out for alot of press- they got it. And now you dont like the exposure.

Just tell them to get the job done.

All good points.

Dont forget that they also have an employees section on their website.

I guess they only want to hear from employees that dont have a mind of their own.

They struggle to answer anyone that asks logical questions, hence the insults and rhetoric.

Its only a matter of time before the rational union members start to ask the same questions of their leadership.

 

[Some Dude]

Who sharted? Oh sorry I guess Family Guy made another post. Loser.

 

[FAcFriend]

All good points.


Its only a matter of time before the rational union members start to ask the same questions of their leadership.

the sad part is if you are a union member and ask questions or express dissent then you are subject to a public flogging, name calling, not a team player etc.

At the same time, Because many of these pilots have been around- they have been furloughed, they know that long term job security means something - They also know the next contract is just that- the NEXT contract....it is not the LAST contract...

 

[FamilyGuy]

the sad part is if you are a union member and ask questions or express dissent then you are subject to a public flogging, name calling, not a team player etc.

At the same time, Because many of these pilots have been around- they have been furloughed, they know that long term job security means something - They also know the next contract is just that- the NEXT contract....it is not the LAST contract...

So all these guys that have been around....surely they have experience at looking at the books...or know someone that does. So why the delay?

How long can the MEC delay looking at the financials before their members start to ask why?

How long can they spend talking about other things when the membership clearly says that the most important thing is pay?

Its now been 10 months....I guess we still have 26 to go before the membership gets frustrated

 

[Cavpilot]

Do we rely on the crews to help us catch mistakes like this? Certainly.

NO YOU DON'T! Just like Fracster said earlier, we have been given the big picture brush off so many times that most of us (including me) will not bother to point out stupid scheduling any more. For example; I was briefed to ferry an Excel From ATL to BZN (Bozman, MT) to do a 0.7 Owner flight. I called everyone I could at Bridgeway to raise the BS flag. Of course no one cared and I ended up doing an almost 4 hour ferry for a 0.7 revenue leg.
You guys talk a better game than you practice.

 

[Dixon Cider]

Welcome to negotiations.... Guess what...both sides think their positions are reasonable and justifiable. I suggest you turn things around and look at it from the other sides perspective.

Its not about what you want, its about what you need and can live with.

Well thats basically what I want.

 

[Ultra Grump]

So all these guys that have been around....surely they have experience at looking at the books...or know someone that does. So why the delay?

How long can the MEC delay looking at the financials before their members start to ask why?

How long can they spend talking about other things when the membership clearly says that the most important thing is pay?

Its now been 10 months....I guess we still have 26 to go before the membership gets frustrated

Hey SmartGuy, I'm sure you've seen the latest "Bargaining Update" from On High, right? Maybe you chose not to read the part about the company and union putting the financial review on hold to facilitate their accelerated bargaining schedule through 9/15. Read the info (propaganda) provided to you by the company, and some of your stupid questions might just be answered by management themselves.

 

[Dixon Cider]

Where do you guys get this number of 1.2M for Boisture anyways? I've seen it posted on this board several times, but have yet to see a reputable source of the info posted. Not that it matters anyways.....what do you think is fair pay for someone responsible for the livlihood of 4,000 employees and their families?

Still don't know how to break up a quote and comment so this will have to do.
So if we are responsible for someone and his/her family that is worth 20 billion, I think what we are asking is reasonable.

As for the aggresive expansion, I figured you guys would support this...it means the company is growing and most of that growth translates directly into more pilot jobs and more pilot dues for the union. What's your gripe with that?

Expansion yes, but not aggressive, that cost you and I money. Pay us what we are worth, then expand all you want.

The company has already said that NJA makes a profit and they are willing to give pilots a raise that reflects that profitability. So whats the problem?

Better knock the chip off your shoulder. I haven't given you an attitude, but you certainly carry one. There is no problem. They are not offering a true raise. What they are offering is a redistribution of funds. Sure give us more money, but don't make us work more days for it. Like I said, it isn't a raise, just a shell game. Labor is a cost of doing business and is seperate from profit. Ask FLYLOW22, he know the exact wording. So when we check out of a hotel, should the company tell the hotel that profits are down, so we can only afford to pay 40% of this bill?

Care to do any more flip-flopping?

Get yer head out of your ass. I said I/we give 100%, not 110% in both post. Where is the flip-flop?

Despite your protestations, the pilot group is sh!tting on us. Just look at all the derogatory references to flight center personnel, managers, executives, and owners on this board.

So you are stereotyping 95% of the pilots on this board because of 5%. That's real class on your part. I have several friends upstairs. Love 'em like brothers. I have never said anything of the sort. So who is personally attacking who here?

I too have been here for years. I know that most of our pilots are great people and that most of the crap that I see on this board is done by a small group of malcontents. But these malcontents seem to be running the show. If you dont agree with their actions why dont you speak up and cry foul? If you fail to speak up then you shouldnt be surprised that people assume you agree with their actions.

Why should I. You bring it upon yourself. I haven't posted here much. So as somewhat of an outsider, you make yourself look like an ass. So if most of our pilots (your quote)are good guys, why do you say that "pilots are sh!tting on you". Make it clear that a small percentage of pilots are doing the sh!tting. You just group us all together. Therefore you get what you deserve.

And as for the legality issue, I suggest you start educating yourself on the RLA and what is permitted, or else you'll quickly find yourself in the same boat as the APA at American Airlines. Bottom line is that while in negotiations the company is not permitted to change any operating rules and the union is not allowed to deviate from standard operating procedure. Your increased rate of DNIF and bullsh!t writeups could end up costing you a multi-million dollar settlement.

Studied the RLA in college, know it well, thank you. Show me a BS write up. It is black and white, cut and dry. There are no gray areas. If it is not in the MEL, it is broke. Can't argue that one. If the DNIF rate is up, that is because we quit flying sick or borderline sick. Can't argue that one either.

Either you guys start controlling the renegades or you will all pay for their actions.

All you renegaders, STOP!!!!!!!!!! Happy now?

Sounds to me like your anger is misplaced. The company bargained in good faith with your duly appointed representatives and reached an agreement with them in late 2004.

I didn't vote for those d!ckheads. They never asked us what we wanted except once and that was 4 years before the TA was reached. They had no clue what we wanted. That is why they were voted out by 85%. You are the one who has misplaced anger. You are angry at me and the other 95% that you have deemed the renegades.

The pilots didnt approve of that agreement and voted it down, which is their right. They also voted out the old leaders and replaced them with a group that you feel is more in tune with what you want.

Addressed above.

The company has been right there, willing to negotiate with any representative you care to put forward. They have also been instrumental in getting a better deal done in just 10 months.

Because they HAVE too.

To go back to your analogy - the company can only deal with the people you put forward. If your representatives are out of touch, who's fault is that? Why are you hostile to the company for your MEC being out of touch?

Again, I am not hostile, yet you continue to stereotype me and the other 95% with the 5%'ers. You yourself said that most of the pilots here are great people. What, can't the "great pilots" come on this public board and post their thoughts and concerns? It is ok for you to do it, but not me? You must be friends with my ex-wife!!

The company claims to have offered all NJ books for review. What books do you want to see that they have not offered? Geico? Dairy Queen?

I dont think NetJets has access to those, and I dont think they are pertinent to these negotiations.

That right there my friend are the key words. "The company CLAIMS to have offer all of the NJ books. They have not. Gecko and DQ, NO. But there are certain areas of Netjets' books that the company won't give up.

Yes, I am a family guy. That is what is truly important to me. I have the same money concerns that you do. I could use a few extra dollars, who couldnt? But am I willing to burn down my house to get it? No thanks.

Burn it down? Depends if they want to offer fair pay. If they don't, I could care less if it does or not. I won't be here to see it.

So you fly the richest people in the world around. Big deal. Does that mean you are entitled to something? It sounds like you feel that way in your mind.

I am entitled fair pay. Again, lose the chip.

You are entitled to a fair days pay for a fair days work. Nothing more, nothing less.

That is all we are asking for. You just don't get it. You are perceiving something that is not there.

NJA is making a profit and they've put a respectable raise on the table that puts you ahead of Flight Options, FlexJet, and Citiation Shares. As you and many other pilots on this board have already acknowledged, you already have much better work rules and conditions than our competitors. What else do you want?

From my perspective, you want airline rules and Corporate flight dept pay. Aint gonna happen. You need to make up your mind which business model you want to be compared to. You cant cherry pick the best of both worlds. When you do that the managers have to do their jobs and protect the business. They cant agree to terms that would cause the company to lose money....this would put everyone out of a job.

We are neither airlines or corporate. We are our own animal. You claim that we are comparing us to them. Well you just did it too. We are fractional, we set our own standards. We can't be compared to either, why are you demanding we choose one? Labor is a cost of doing business. If it was properly managed, EVERYONE could get a fair raise and the company could still return money to the share holders.

I'm beginning to understand why people here feel the way they do about you.
Lose the attitude.

 

[Sarka]

NO YOU DON'T! Just like Fracster said earlier, we have been given the big picture brush off so many times that most of us (including me) will not bother to point out stupid scheduling any more. For example; I was briefed to ferry an Excel From ATL to BZN (Bozman, MT) to do a 0.7 Owner flight. I called everyone I could at Bridgeway to raise the BS flag. Of course no one cared and I ended up doing an almost 4 hour ferry for a 0.7 revenue leg.
You guys talk a better game than you practice.

Did you ever think that there may be some explaination or extenuating circumstances behind the reason we ferried an aircraft 4 hour for a .7 trip? Or, do you just prefer to think that the schedulers are really that incompetant that they cannot see the waste in doing something like you have described, too? I could speculate on several reasons why somehting like this could occur. Most likely, the owner refused other options that had been presented or there were no other options. Many times our hands our tied by circumstances beyond our control and we are forced into ferrying aircraft great distances to meet the owners needs or wants. After all, isn't that our mission? To meet the owners needs?

The bottom line of the company affects our pay raises also. Do you think any of us want to make the company (our livelihood) less profitable? If so, you are delusional. I cringe every time I see that we have had to ferry an aircraft excessive amount to cover a small trip. But, most times there are reasons behind it. Like it or not, there are times that we have to do things that may not be the MOST efficient use of our assets.

I know people on this board (and in the puzzle palace) say that the pilot's don't have the "big picture" (a term I personnally despise). I can only speak for myself and from what I have seen or experienced. I'd say there are times you don't have all of the facts. Just as there are times that we (schedulers) don't have all the facts. We (like you) base our decisions on the information we have available at the time. Sometimes, bad decisions are made because of faulty or lack of information (on both sides). The biggest problem we have here is that the information is not being communicated (to everyone that needs to know), being mis-communicate, being ignored or being misunderstood.

You say you called everyone you could at Bridgeway to raise the BS flag and nobody cared. My question is, did you just say it was BS or ask for a reason behind it? Who were you asking and did they have all of the info?

I will agree that many times the full and correct information is not getting communicated to the crews, but you are adding to the problem by not communicating your observations and concerns when we all should be trying to find better solutions to the problems. I am not laying all of the blame on you either. There is enough to go around for all of us. The thing we should be doing is trying to find solutions instead of bashing each other and trying to place blame.

Once again, I ask. How is bashing scheduling or any other department or group on a public forum advancing your cause? How is not communicating with your co-workers going to increase your chances of getting what you are seeking?

It isn't. So, please leave those of us who have nothing to do with the current contract negotiations out of your public beef with the company. Please.

 

[squonk]

Family Guy said,

To go back to your analogy - the company can only deal with the people you put forward. If your representatives are out of touch, who's fault is that? Why are you hostile to the company for your MEC being out of touch?

Please explain how our reps are out of touch? I think we have shown numerous time how this company is WAY out of touch.

The ball is in their court....