NetJets seniority

[dsptchrnja]

Again, for those of us who have been here for longer than the average we used to do this. Where did it get us? Did anything change?

Frankly yes. Many of the changes you see on your flight plan over the years are from feedback from crews. And just recently I was CC'd on an email forwarded to the Chief Pilot from a crew on the road making a suggestion. I don't recall the exact nature of the suggestion I just remember reading the last line that said something like "I think this is a good suggestion, don't see why it can't be implemented." No doubt some of your feedback has fallen on deaf ears over the years, some of my suggestions have too. But people here do care even if they don't do well at communicating that to you.

We do the absolute bare minimum. We just dont care.

I don't believe you. You do care. People who don't care don't bother to discuss this stuff. I think all the pilots care, they are just discouraged.

Over the years, the pilots have rewarded scheduling, owner services and dispatch for their mistakes. We have taught these groups to let their gaurds down because, we, the pilots would catch their mistakes and fix things in the end.... We simply dont do your jobs anymore.... All the waste and problems with NJA is primarily these three groups.

Personally I resent this statement and it is dis-heartening to the many who have worked hard and take pride in what they do. Please learn to respect the departments and people that serve you. Condemning them/us will never help.

 

[Dixon Cider]

Glad to see you have the emotional maturity and professionalism required to carry on an adult conversation.

I'd recommend that you avail yourself of some of the other benefits the company provides you - namely EAP....they can help you with your anger management issues.

Yaaaawwwnnnnn. EAP couldn't help me so I beat the sh!t out of the counselor. I have the maturity and professionalism. Like I said, you bring it on yourself. I'm done with you.

Some Dude, I'm buying the first round. You in??

 

[Fracster]

You made changes to our flight plan?????? WTF does changes to the flight plan have anything to do with efficiency. You moved a few blocks around and added a few blocks. We still get weather thats 4 hours old so we end up going inside and printing up the latest weather and latest notams. And out of 2000+ pilots you remember 1 cc'ed email about a suggestion? 2000 pilots and 1 suggestion taken seriously.

Dispatch, let me add one other thing. You guys are not the problem. Yes, it aggravates me when things are wrong with the numbers and that can cause us problems but thats why we double check everything. I would love to get my flight plan, plug in the numbers and forget about it but this isnt 121 so its never going to happen. You guys dont cost the company money and owners like scheduling and owners services.

 

[dsptchrnja]

Fracster, nevermind, not worth it, tired of the confrontational volleys.

BTW, the reason you get 4 hour old wx is because we normally release you 4 hours before your flight - hope this helps.

 

[GerryG]

Gentlemen,
I am a flight options pilot and almost never post on this site, although I often read. I am also more than sympathetic to your Union and your cause. That being said I finally have to ask. Why do you engage with the dispatchers and other inferior people who post on this site? When I first got out of college I had a job, for a short time in a hospital. One of the things I learned from that experience is that people always resent those they are tasked to support. In the case of the hospital the nurses, orderlies and secretaries resented the doctors because they got to practice medicine and make the final decisions. In our case the dispatchers, schedulers, owner service reps. and other office functionaries, resent the pilots because we get to fly and make the final decisions. The only difference is the doctors would never have discussed their challenges with the little people beneath them, because to do so would have invited those people to consider themselves equal. Ask yourselves, how long did these people go to school to be qualified to do their jobs? How many years did they sacrifice to get to where they are? How many people will die if they make mistakes. The bottom line is these people either lacked the smarts or the perseverance required to get to where you are. Sure they are good at sorting through minutia and pushing papers across a desk but they really don't know much about aviation and have little consception of what our jobs are really like. So their opinions don't count for much, why respond to them? You flatter them when you choose to speak to them. That's why they bait you here.

 

[dsptchrnja]

Gentlemen,
I am a flight options pilot and almost never post on this site, although I often read. I am also more than sympathetic to your Union and your cause. That being said I finally have to ask. Why do you engage with the dispatchers and other inferior people who post on this site? When I first got out of college I had a job, for a short time in a hospital. One of the things I learned from that experience is that people always resent those they are tasked to support. In the case of the hospital the nurses, orderlies and secretaries resented the doctors because they got to practice medicine and make the final decisions. In our case the dispatchers, schedulers, owner service reps. and other office functionaries, resent the pilots because we get to fly and make the final decisions. The only difference is the doctors would never have discussed their challenges with the little people beneath them, because to do so would have invited those people to consider themselves equal. Ask yourselves, how long did these people go to school to be qualified to do their jobs? How many years did they sacrifice to get to where they are? How many people will die if they make mistakes. The bottom line is these people either lacked the smarts or the perseverance required to get to where you are. Sure they are good at sorting through minutia and pushing papers across a desk but they really don't know much about aviation and have little consception of what our jobs are really like. So their opinions don't count for much, why respond to them? You flatter them when you choose to speak to them. That's why they bait you here.

Takes big kahoonas to anonomously put people down, huh Gerry?

At the risk of flattering you for responding to your condescending post I will just point out some errors in your line of thought. For all I know you are likely not an aviation professional but a flamer who gets his kicks out of upsetting or putting down people.

At any rate, can you give an example of a single dispatcher or NJA employee who generally resent the pilots they serve and support that with evidence...? BTW if all you have is what you come up with on this board, you lose. If I am not aware of one, I kind of doubt you're going to do too well on this.

I have a 4 year BS degree in Management of Technical Aviation Operations. I have another 4 years in the military and went to several schools there. And you?

Oh, and I can fly any time I want, I'm also a pilot and got my license at ERAU in DAB. It was there that I decided to be a dispatcher and attended the oldest and most recognized dispatch shcool in the world in FLL.

Do you know how many dispatchers are now flying the line at NJA?

I could go on about how dispatcher's mistakes could cost lives but as you say I don't know anything about aviation, am inferior to you, and lack the smarts to get where you are, so who cares what I think.

Thanks for the post... finally needed a good laugh on this thread.

 

[flyfysh]

Here is a cookie for doing what we pilots are hired to do. Oh and BTW, you also get a paycheck for this as well.
Are you the President of your own fan club too?
There are some of us who take pride in what we do and do not feel the need to beat our own drum.

 

[x402]

Takes big kahoonas to anonomously put people down, huh Gerry?

At the risk of flattering you for responding to your condescending post I will just point out some errors in your line of thought. For all I know you are likely not an aviation professional but a flamer who gets his kicks out of upsetting or putting down people.

At any rate, can you give an example of a single dispatcher or NJA employee who generally resent the pilots they serve and support that with evidence...? BTW if all you have is what you come up with on this board, you lose. If I am not aware of one, I kind of doubt you're going to do too well on this.

I have a 4 year BS degree in Management of Technical Aviation Operations. I have another 4 years in the military and went to several schools there. And you?

Oh, and I can fly any time I want, I'm also a pilot and got my license at ERAU in DAB. It was there that I decided to be a dispatcher and attended the oldest and most recognized dispatch shcool in the world in FLL.

Do you know how many dispatchers are now flying the line at NJA?

I could go on about how dispatcher's mistakes could cost lives but as you say I don't know anything about aviation, am inferior to you, and lack the smarts to get where you are, so who cares what I think.

Thanks for the post... finally needed a good laugh on this thread.

Our dispatchers are a part of the complete picture of what goes on day to day a Netjets. Will everyone be correct 100% of the time? NEVER.Are we as pilots responsible to review EVERYTHING before we depart. Yes.
When I stop checking details, I will go back to driving trucks.
It's a team effort and the Netjets dispatchers allow us to do 5-7 legs safely.
Perfection is a target we all strive for, reality makes us all work together to survive.

 

[Sarka]

Gentlemen,
I am a flight options pilot and almost never post on this site, although I often read. I am also more than sympathetic to your Union and your cause. That being said I finally have to ask. Why do you engage with the dispatchers and other inferior people who post on this site? When I first got out of college I had a job, for a short time in a hospital. One of the things I learned from that experience is that people always resent those they are tasked to support. In the case of the hospital the nurses, orderlies and secretaries resented the doctors because they got to practice medicine and make the final decisions. In our case the dispatchers, schedulers, owner service reps. and other office functionaries, resent the pilots because we get to fly and make the final decisions. The only difference is the doctors would never have discussed their challenges with the little people beneath them, because to do so would have invited those people to consider themselves equal. Ask yourselves, how long did these people go to school to be qualified to do their jobs? How many years did they sacrifice to get to where they are? How many people will die if they make mistakes. The bottom line is these people either lacked the smarts or the perseverance required to get to where you are. Sure they are good at sorting through minutia and pushing papers across a desk but they really don't know much about aviation and have little consception of what our jobs are really like. So their opinions don't count for much, why respond to them? You flatter them when you choose to speak to them. That's why they bait you here.

Personally, I think this post should be in the NetJets In-House Fighting Championship thread except for the fact that you are not a NetJets employee (thank God!).

Speaking for myself only, I hold absolutely no resentment towards our pilots although I find you to be quite full of yourself. For the most part, I have found the vast majority of our pilots to be the ultimate professionals.

I also find that most of the people I work with in CMH are also highly professional. Unfortunatley, we all have our 10%. Gerry, you would definately fall into that 10%.

Our dispatchers are a part of the complete picture of what goes on day to day a Netjets. Will everyone be correct 100% of the time? NEVER.Are we as pilots responsible to review EVERYTHING before we depart. Yes.
When I stop checking details, I will go back to driving trucks.
It's a team effort and the Netjets dispatchers allow us to do 5-7 legs safely.
Perfection is a target we all strive for, reality makes us all work together to survive.

Well said x402. I couldn't agree more. Obviously, you are part of the 90%.

 

[Diesel]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

The dispatchers are filing thousands of flightplans, changes, everything that goes on. They are doing everything from a falcon to a 400xp and supposed to remember everything for each and every plane.

Dispatchers are set up to fail. It's amazing they can keep 99 percent of the balls in the air. They need to file only one type of plane and hire more dispatchers.

Unfortunatly the company does not see how much they are needed but the pilots do.

 

[dsptchrnja]

on that note... found out yesterday we are hiring 4-6 new dispatchers. Still looking for qualified applicants.

 

[Semore Butts]

Glad to hear it

Glad to hear we are getting some more dispatchers.

I know you all work hard, and wether some would believe it or not, it's a team effort.

 

[Hawkered]

Family Guy

Your accounting of the core-fleet disposal is one that concerns me greatly. I know that you have to "hail to the chief", but clearly it is time for somebody to speak up before the emperor shows up without any clothes.

We have spoken before about the validity of higher utilisation of all of the aircraft types with the Marquis Jet Partners option effectively dividing possession of the aircraft into 1/32, or between any one of 32 parties. This is a far cry from the original "Quarter Share" marketing of our fractional founder.

Leveraged aviation purchases at airlines don't work, because the return on investment does not make the interest payment attractive over either the short or long term. Thats why we now have two completely "paper" airlines in this country consiting of JetBlue and Airtran. They have no real assets except the cash on hand to show that they can...go out and lease more aircraft. Much like Budget did just before they went bankrupt in the '80s..but that's another story.

Netjets is such a dynamically different operation than a business model that serves the same two dozen city pairs. With over 5,000 airports domestically in the United States alone, you have really screwed up any chance of recovering flights after an interruption in reliability. A Citation X broken down in Butte, Montana is going to sit there for three days if it breaks on a Friday evening. This problem is not the same as an A-320 in Long Beach or JFK for JetBlue being cared for by in-house line maintenance with a factory rep' looking over their shoulders.

What you have failed to realize is that by simply showing a reduction in a long-term lien against a core fleet aircraft, or for that matter, one that is owned but fully depreciated, you have cost us that expense multiplied by ten or fifteen flights over the weekend that our broken down Citation X in Butte could not cover. The short term costs have been astronomical.

I don't know if you guys did this to lower the staffing required for Part 91K, to drag out negotiations, or because you simply didn't know any better!

Leadership 101: When you screw up, admit it, ask for forgiveness and move on!!

Dixon Cider

I feel your pain man, but you're coming off as a real whack job, not somebody whose professional respect is based upon dignified behavior.

 

[Dixon Cider]

Dixon Cider

I feel your pain man, but you're coming off as a real whack job, not somebody whose professional respect is based upon dignified behavior.

Look man, I tried to be civil, calm, cool, and collected. I am a professional in the cockpit as much as anyone. However, every man has limits. If it weren't for the anonymity, I wouldn't have given in so easily. That being said, I have no tolerance for gross stupidity from FG. His double talk of how he thinks pilots are great in one breath and in the next he talks about how the pilots are sh!tting on him, and we do our job poorly based on his opinions. Where is the professionalism on his part?

No whack job on my part, just fed up. Take care.

 

[Hawkered]

You too, take care. We don't need the thread degenerating anymore than it has. Its time to put this behind us and....


Git 'er Done!!!!

 

[FamilyGuy]

Family Guy

Your accounting of the core-fleet disposal is one that concerns me greatly. I know that you have to "hail to the chief", but clearly it is time for somebody to speak up before the emperor shows up without any clothes.

We have spoken before about the validity of higher utilisation of all of the aircraft types with the Marquis Jet Partners option effectively dividing possession of the aircraft into 1/32, or between any one of 32 parties. This is a far cry from the original "Quarter Share" marketing of our fractional founder.

Leveraged aviation purchases at airlines don't work, because the return on investment does not make the interest payment attractive over either the short or long term. Thats why we now have two completely "paper" airlines in this country consiting of JetBlue and Airtran. They have no real assets except the cash on hand to show that they can...go out and lease more aircraft. Much like Budget did just before they went bankrupt in the '80s..but that's another story.

Netjets is such a dynamically different operation than a business model that serves the same two dozen city pairs. With over 5,000 airports domestically in the United States alone, you have really screwed up any chance of recovering flights after an interruption in reliability. A Citation X broken down in Butte, Montana is going to sit there for three days if it breaks on a Friday evening. This problem is not the same as an A-320 in Long Beach or JFK for JetBlue being cared for by in-house line maintenance with a factory rep' looking over their shoulders.

What you have failed to realize is that by simply showing a reduction in a long-term lien against a core fleet aircraft, or for that matter, one that is owned but fully depreciated, you have cost us that expense multiplied by ten or fifteen flights over the weekend that our broken down Citation X in Butte could not cover. The short term costs have been astronomical.

I don't know if you guys did this to lower the staffing required for Part 91K, to drag out negotiations, or because you simply didn't know any better!

Leadership 101: When you screw up, admit it, ask for forgiveness and move on!!

Dixon Cider

I feel your pain man, but you're coming off as a real whack job, not somebody whose professional respect is based upon dignified behavior.

Hawkered - I dont think the selling of the core fleet is attributable to anything as sinister as what you alluded to at the end of your message.

For me, it appears to be a repeat of the problems we saw in 99-00. If you'll think back we go through these cycles every 4-5 years where demand skyrockets and we cant get the planes fast enough from the manufacturers. This causes our core fleet to shrink down to unacceptable levels and the sell offs to increase, and yes, to levels that are astronomical and unsustainable.

The flip side of this is that during the slow years the planes are coming in from the manufacturers at a much faster rate than we are selling them...something that is also unsustainable. You have to balance the supply and demand out....which as I pointed out earlier, is very difficult when supply has a 2-3 year lead time and demand changes in a matter of weeks or months.

I dont know why it is so hard to balance these two....but we do have to get better at it. I personally think we havent learned as a company to manage our sales. We've always been sell, sell, sell.....and then we have to try and find a way to support it. Shortsighted? yes. Should we be managing the sales to match aircraft supply? yes. but it is a good problem to have.

Your point on not selling the core because it is fully depreciated is way off base though. Think about our model....we buy aircraft and keep them for 10 years max, and then we are selling them and moving into newer aircraft fleets. look at the SII's, and now the Hawkers and Ultras.

The point is that you arent going to fully depreciate an aircraft over 10 years and it is not realistic for us to keep older, fully depreciated aircraft as the core fleet for the owners....they wouldnt accept them. We have to keep selling shares in the aircraft fleets and steadily moving the core to the newer fleets.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Look man, I tried to be civil, calm, cool, and collected. I am a professional in the cockpit as much as anyone. However, every man has limits. If it weren't for the anonymity, I wouldn't have given in so easily. That being said, I have no tolerance for gross stupidity from FG. His double talk of how he thinks pilots are great in one breath and in the next he talks about how the pilots are sh!tting on him, and we do our job poorly based on his opinions. Where is the professionalism on his part?

No whack job on my part, just fed up. Take care.

No double talk at all Dixon. Go back and read my posts. I've been very clear from the start that most of our pilots are great. Most of our pilots also do not post on this board. There is a small group of malcontents that seen intent on getting on this board and posting a bunch of misleading crap that does nothing but bash a very good company and denigrate the other employees. That I will not stand idly by and watch. Those malcontents are sh!tting all over the other employees and the company and you seem to be content in just watching the mugging.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Where do you guys get this number of 1.2M for Boisture anyways? I've seen it posted on this board several times, but have yet to see a reputable source of the info posted. Not that it matters anyways.....what do you think is fair pay for someone responsible for the livlihood of 4,000 employees and their families?

The company filings show his compensation package. Every CEO, or company presidents' earnings are public knowledge.

Dixon,
Really. Can you tell me where? What filings? I went to the website looking for both NJ and BH. Can you be more specific? Link? Please tell me exactly where you found this information.
Thanks.

Still waiting on an answer Dixon.

Where do you get this number? If what you are saying is accurate then its public information and you can post it. Why the delay?

 

[Hawkered]

Family Guy

You are wrong about the tolerance levels of the owners to older aircraft. Many of our sell-offs are given to older aircraft than made up your core fleet disposal plan anyway.

When you look at the worldwide succes of many of the chain restaurants, the focus has always been one of a homogenous product and a predictable outcome. By engaging in large numbers of sell-offs you are not really controlling either and are just looking like any other broker.

Let me give you a good example.

The other day I was in an area of Chicago where a Hawker 800A was parked with no crew anywhere to be found. It was an aircraft I had flown at a prior employer and I knew it to be manufactured in 1993. I then introduced myself to several customers in the lounge, believing they might be ours. They were.

I went to the pilot lounge and identified myself to the two sleeping bodies in lazy boys, one who had a full beard, (how's that Eros mask gonna seal over that thing), and neither in anything that resembled a uniform. The customers looked at me in disgust.

I contacted Owner Services and they gave me a defensive line about the small writing in the customers contract. Now what tools does that offer me to appease these people?

Whether we look at the chain burger example where a Big Mac in Moscow is the same as it is in New York, or even Yellow Cab between New York or Chicago, its the predictability of the end product that gives the customers a sense of security in their purchasing decisions and lets them feel they're not getting ripped off.

Sir, you have also taken a somewhat defensive position on an honest question regarding the disposal of a valuable asset in what was the company core fleet. Your team also managed to achieve this in the most depressed used aircraft market in almost thirty years. You will note that The Berkshire Hathaway statements for 2003 and even 2004 also reflected this negatively.

I accept the fact that there are not as many tax advantages to a fully depreciated aircraft, but it has one major advantage to a sell-off. It costs you less, and sell-offs leave you with nothing but a box full of receipts. Not only this but you left a great number of employees who came here on the promise of a quick upgrade on FO/FO pay for almost two and a half years. The costs to morale have been, perhaps, as high as the enormous burden of the sell-offs.

You speak of the challenges of the fractional market, yet you're undeterred in selling as many Marquis Cards as you can, thereby alienating your real owners. Your response...blame those nasty pilots?

I have been approached by two airlines and even this company to go into management and once or twice I have considered it. I am not looking for another job and wouldn't mind sticking around here until I retire, but you guys do have me worried!

Lastly, I don't feel that your response to Dixon Cider was in any way an extension of the olive branch. He may have drank a little union kool aid, he may think that I drank too much that was given to me by the company, but at the end of the day we respect each other and plan to continue getting along as professional peers.

I don't care what Mr Boisture makes. I want us all to make a decent living. I hope he and everyone else makes as much money as they think they're worth and that we all get our focus back on securing the needed talent to make this company the best company it can be.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Family Guy
You are wrong about the tolerance levels of the owners to older aircraft. Many of our sell-offs are given to older aircraft than made up your core fleet disposal plan anyway.

When you look at the worldwide succes of many of the chain restaurants, the focus has always been one of a homogenous product and a predictable outcome. By engaging in large numbers of sell-offs you are not really controlling either and are just looking like any other broker.

Hawkered - I agree with you that consistency and predictability of the product is a key to continued success. That is also why I will stick with my original point that the owners will push back on the older aircraft. Yes, many of our sell-offs are to older aircraft, but that does not mean the owners like it. Our core fleet should be on the same level as the rest of the fleet that the owners buy into.

Family Guy
Let me give you a good example.

The other day I was in an area of Chicago where a Hawker 800A was parked with no crew anywhere to be found. It was an aircraft I had flown at a prior employer and I knew it to be manufactured in 1993. I then introduced myself to several customers in the lounge, believing they might be ours. They were.

I went to the pilot lounge and identified myself to the two sleeping bodies in lazy boys, one who had a full beard, (how's that Eros mask gonna seal over that thing), and neither in anything that resembled a uniform. The customers looked at me in disgust.

I contacted Owner Services and they gave me a defensive line about the small writing in the customers contract. Now what tools does that offer me to appease these people?

Whether we look at the chain burger example where a Big Mac in Moscow is the same as it is in New York, or even Yellow Cab, its the predictability of the end product that gives the customers a sense of security in their purchasing decisions and lets them feel they're not getting ripped off.

Agreed. The example you cited is not acceptable and we should be exercising greater discretion in securing additional lift for the fleet.

Family Guy
Sir, you have also taken a somewhat defensive position on an honest question regarding the disposal of a valuable asset in what was the company core fleet. Your team also managed to achieve this in the most depressed used aircraft market in almost thirty years. You will note that The Berkshire Hathaway statements for 2003 and even 2004 also reflected this negatively.

I accept the fact that there are not as many tax advantages to a fully depreciated aircraft, but it has one major advantage to a sell-off. It costs you less, and sell-offs leave you with nothing but a box full of receipts. Not only this but you left a great number of employees who came here on the promise of a quick upgrade on FO/FO pay for almost two and a half years. The costs to morale have been, perhaps, as high as the enormous burden of the sell-offs.

Ed - you are talking like we sold these aircraft out of the program and thereby eliminated additional jobs for pilots. Nothing could be further from the truth. The reduction in the core fleet has occurred because we sold more shares in the fleet. We simply have been selling shares faster than they are being delivered. This does not result in a reduction of pilot jobs.

Simply put, the program is oversold, much like it was in 99-00. We need to slow down the sales and start matching them to aircraft deliveries.

Family Guy
You speak of the challenges of the fractional market, yet you're undeterred in selling as many Marquis Cards as you can, thereby alienating your real owners. Your response...blame those nasty pilots?

You've lost me on this one ed. I dont know where my responses have led you to believe that I've blamed the pilots for being oversold, or that I agree with selling as many Marquis cards as we can.

I agree that an oversold program alienates our real owners. I also think I've been clear that we should manage our sales more closely and make sure they do not exceed our supply of aircraft. Is it hard to say no to a potential owner? Sure, but that is definitely preferable to selling off flights to charter. I also think that having a wait list to get into the program lends itself to that air of exclusivity and increases the desirability of the product.

Family Guy
Lastly, I don't feel that your response to Dixon Cider was in any way an extension of the olive branch. He may have drank a little union kool aid, he may think that I drank too much that was given to me by the company, but at the end of the day we respect each other and plan to continue getting along as professional peers.

I didnt know I was supposed to extend an olive branch to Dixon. As you pointed out a couple days ago, I have tried to take the high road and not engage in profanities, grade school name calling, and personal attacks.

I will always try to respect my fellow employees and treat them professionally, but if anyone wants an olive branch from me then I need to see positive steps from the opposing party that indicates that they are ready to act like mature adults and conduct themselves like professionals on this board.

Family Guy
I don't care what Mr Boisture makes. I want us all to make a decent living. I hope he and everyone else makes as much money as they think they're worth and that we all get our focus back on securing the needed talent to make this company the best company it can be.

Agreed.