Netjets New Payscale

[CapnVegetto]

G4dude, you should move to management if you are not there already. Thinking like that has put the aviation industry in the toliet. Blame labor, blame the pilots, blame this, blame that. When management points a finger at pilots for causing a company to fall they have 3 fingers pointing back at themselves. Unions and organized pilots are not the problem! Last I checked, Southwest Pilots and Flight Attendents were unionized and I don't see their management blaming them for the current situation. There are more examples of poor leadership and bad management decisions than there are of Unions ruining an industry or company. It is real easy to make labor the vilian, while hiding mismanagement of resources and poor decisions.

Couldn't have been said any better by anyone. Anybody that wants to blame labor just needs to look at SWA. Highest paid, best treated labor in the business, and just look at them. They are on top because of innovative and smart management, as well as labor that is treated right and willing to work their butt off for management that they trust.

When was the last time you heard SWA labor complaining about their managment being dishonest, cooking the books, lining their pockets, etc. NEVER. NJA, FLOPS, every major, and every regional should be learning from this, yet the vast majority of managment teams out there still seem to think 'rape your labor and line your pockets' is a valid business plan.

 

[Some Dude]

The retired guys on my fleet are very strong union. I just had a retired guy three tours ago. It was only his 4th tour. He can't believe how hard we work. He also believed we were truely some of the best pilots he has ever flown with. His comment was "the captains at NJA have ten times the responsiblity that I ever had my whole airline career." He also said "if the pay doesn't come up here then I'm going to leave." Welcome indeed.

 

[Muddauber]

G4dude, you should move to management if you are not there already. Thinking like that has put the aviation industry in the toliet. Blame labor, blame the pilots, blame this, blame that. When management points a finger at pilots for causing a company to fall they have 3 fingers pointing back at themselves. Unions and organized pilots are not the problem! Last I checked, Southwest Pilots and Flight Attendents were unionized and I don't see their management blaming them for the current situation. There are more examples of poor leadership and bad management decisions than there are of Unions ruining an industry or company. It is real easy to make labor the vilian, while hiding mismanagement of resources and poor decisions.

Southwest pilots belong to SWAPA, a non-profit financially responsible employee organization. The flight attendants belong to the Transport Workers Union Local 556. In the long run, Southwest cannot afford the contract that they signed with the flight attendants last year. As you probably recall they were threatening to picket our opening of the Pittsburgh base. We are only profitable right now because of fuel oil and unleaded gasoline fuel hedging.

Muddy

 

[FamilyGuy]

This whole contract mess is just business, nothing more, nothing less. If you take it personally then you have no business working for a company that uses Union labor. For all the casino employees that feel threatened by the Union, I'm sure you could go work for CS or Flops!

I agree, contract negotiations are simply business. I dont see anyone in the flight center taking the negotiations personally. In fact, most people here support your case to get a fair raise. We know all the hard work that the pilots do every day.

What I do see people in the flight center taking personally is all the misleading and disparaging attacks being made a small group of union militants in public forums such as this board in an effort to discredit a very good company.

All we want is for this group to treat the negotiations as business as well....stop the public bashing and go back in and negotiate based on the facts.

That includes stopping all the public rants against the company on these boards. If you dont want to see us on these boards then stop posting the misleading statements and personal attacks on the company and we have no reason to be here....

 

[FamilyGuy]

Question:
Why did Netjets atttempt to raise newhire pay, outside (above) current rates, if these 8,000+ furloughed pilots SHOULD have been more than glad to get any flying job, as you state?

What kind of employee should Netjets want to attract, and keep? Committed, long term employees, or those just looking to wait out their furloughed time? Stable companies need stable employees, no?

I thought Netjets preferred "career employees"...if not at least be honest enough at face value, like the commuters were, to represent that Netjets is just a "stop along the way."

I think you answered your own question Vmax. The company tried to raise the newhire rate, no strings attached, because it was the right thing to do and they want committed, long term employees here.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Couldn't have been said any better by anyone. Anybody that wants to blame labor just needs to look at SWA. Highest paid, best treated labor in the business, and just look at them. They are on top because of innovative and smart management, as well as labor that is treated right and willing to work their butt off for management that they trust.

When was the last time you heard SWA labor complaining about their managment being dishonest, cooking the books, lining their pockets, etc. NEVER. NJA, FLOPS, every major, and every regional should be learning from this, yet the vast majority of managment teams out there still seem to think 'rape your labor and line your pockets' is a valid business plan.

Capn - no one here at NetJets is blaming labor. No one here at NetJets is asking for concessions from labor. NetJets has an offer of 23%-40% raises on the table to the pilot group.

For perspective, here's the current payscales for 5 year captain for NetJets, the other fractionals, and a sampling of airlines. All data came from airlinepilotpay.com.
[font=Verdana,arial][/font]
[font=Verdana,arial]NetJets...............60,984
CitationShares..... 63,996
FlightOptions....... 66,372
FlexJet............... 70,737

Delta................ 115,440
American........... 112,128
United................ 93,600
Continental........ 116,640
US Air............... 100,224
America West..... 115,128
JetBlue.............. 101,640
ComAir................ 61,200
Pinnacle.............. 55,800
[/font]

Last time I looked putting raises of this magnitude on the table doesnt fall into the category of "raping your labor and lining your pockets".

 

[cgmason1]

Just to play devils advocate-the numbers you posted for a 5 year Cpt at JetBlue would be right if they only flew 70 hours and got min guarantee.

Most 5 year JB CPT's are flying in the 80 plus range and with the time and a half above 70 earn in the neighborhood of 130k plus per year.

Also for the record-I have worked at NetJets and JB and the job at NetJets is allot harder with allot more details to worry about to provide a quality product.
NJA guys should be paid for the quality product they produce and the many many minute details they have to worry about-I won't even get into the issue of flying into a different airport day after day in regards to the dangers and issues that represents.
ie crew that had a brake failure in the Ultra in Texas, and still managed to pull the owners out of a burning aircraft-how much is that worth?

Fly Safe
Chuck

 

[Fozzy]

[QUOTE=dsptchrNJA]Heard this week from a training Capt. that we are getting an influx of United pilots and the interview classes are full. Many of these pilots are 16,000+ hour retired guys who are just itchin to fly. Welcome![/QUOTE]

LIAR!!! I call Bull$hit! You are such a fing mole. I may be coming off strong but you are so full of "I was hired by NJA to post this complete crap" that I want to strangle you.

I was just at FSI CMH. Our IP was very forthcoming on how things really are. (better tell your boss to put a muzzle on the FSI folks) And let me tell you, it is not good. New hires are walking out, during class and sim. One guy, right in the middle of the sim, "I don't need this $hit" and quit. God bless him. New hires with LESS than the min's required. Classes half full. Many of the new hires are shady at best. And now the company wants to put an end to IOE. Boy Gary, that is a smart move. Our IP was a very worried about signing off these guys for the line.

So where are the thousands of pilots hungry for NJA??!!?? Sorry moron they don't exist!

 

[dsptchrnja]

LIAR!!! I call Bull$hit! You are such a fing mole. I may be coming off strong but you are so full of "I was hired by NJA to post this complete crap" that I want to strangle you.

I was just at FSI CMH. Our IP was very forthcoming on how things really are. (better tell your boss to put a muzzle on the FSI folks) And let me tell you, it is not good. New hires are walking out, during class and sim. One guy, right in the middle of the sim, "I don't need this $hit" and quit. God bless him. New hires with LESS than the min's required. Classes half full. Many of the new hires are shady at best. And now the company wants to put an end to IOE. Boy Gary, that is a smart move. Our IP was a very worried about signing off these guys for the line.

So where are the thousands of pilots hungry for NJA??!!?? Sorry moron they don't exist!

Not sure if you calling me a liar for making up what I heard or the pilot a liar for telling me that. Either way, like Sun Tzu said, if it's true it will show up on the seniority lists soon.

I think what is striking about your post is your abhorrence to anything that might be interpreted as a positive news for the company. Your blatent hatred and vengence for this company is exactly the reason your non-bargaining associates are not lining up behind you. In fact you are scaring them. I highly recommend you find work where the prosperity of the company doesn't threaten you so much. If a new-hire can't even make it through the sim - I agree - God bless him for knowing his limits and tolerences and quiting rather than revolting. He's sounds smart to me. You on the other hand, are scary.

 

[Some Dude]

Family Guy you are such an idiot to believe the company wants long term employees (pilots). If that were true then why the heck would they hire any retired airline guys. They guys are only going to work mabe three years at the most. The guys I have talked to are just staying until the training contract is over. Once again gets some nuts and tell what your job is at NJA. You have NO common sense in regards to this company that I really do think your are just some stooge the company hired to write some posts. The company should get their money back because you don't make any points with real facts.

 

[VmaxFlyR]

Employment Strategy?

I think you answered your own question Vmax. The company tried to raise the newhire rate, no strings attached, because it was the right thing to do and they want committed, long term employees here.

Question:

But will those employees really want to stay when they find out that the only sizable raises make under a new contract were to them, as a group of new hires? Don't you think that they will eventually want to make more than $38k for working 17-18 days per month? To invision themselves being a long term employee, they will want to earn considerably more than that in the future, just as today's Netjet guys do--remember, they were once new hires, too!

The stategy you've suggested--raise new hire pay to get bodies in the jets, but restrict pay over time--is one that will promote turnover, NOT stability and long term employment...or is that the REAL stategy?

BTW...interesting use of "the right thing to do..."

 

[FamilyGuy]

Family Guy you are such an idiot to believe the company wants long term employees (pilots). If that were true then why the heck would they hire any retired airline guys. They guys are only going to work mabe three years at the most. The guys I have talked to are just staying until the training contract is over. Once again gets some nuts and tell what your job is at NJA. You have NO common sense in regards to this company that I really do think your are just some stooge the company hired to write some posts. The company should get their money back because you don't make any points with real facts.

LOL.....everyone on this board is still waiting for you to post a point backed up with real facts.

Your sole contribution has been hate, profanity, and ugliness. Maybe we should recap some of your more intelligent posts to prove the point:

Fred Garvin your "good authority" is an idiot or you sir are a liar. I do work at NJA and have for a long time. I just call your BS when I see it. You don't so your opinion don't matter fool..

Dispatch Dork if you were really a casino puke you would be worried about all the money flowing from NJA to all the other companies. It affects your pay as a cmh employee. No money left at NJA then no money for raises for cmh employees. Are you that stupid not to realize that?

Family Guy you must not work at NJA. Other wise you would know all about the investigation of the A Team and how ButtHole Boisture endorsed the fact that giving gifts to schedulers was ok. Hell no, we don't like those pole suckers, but I'm sure they have dreams of making it to V.P. of Pole Suckers one day. Hell we got a VP of People why not a VP of Pole Suckers?Truth is the A Teamers have broken the BH ethics code. Don't even get me started on the whole illegal checkride fiasco involving management pilots.

Heck just lock a monkey in the CEOs office. He should be able to produce the same results if not better results. We're thinking of trying this at NJA.

Transpac don't forget all the "A Team" pole suckers at NJA. If one of them was on fire I wouldn't waste my piss to put out the fire.

Oh poor DickItcher, I mean Dispatcher please don't ignore me. Come back and play.

H2b go back to your microsoft flight sim and stop trying to be a real pilot. Maybe spend some more of your time at www.wannbepilotcan'tgetlaid.com. I bet you wear those ray ban glasses just like in Top Gun.

Hey H2b you must be one of the rejects that didn't get hired at NJA you sure have a hard on for all of us. Although a small hard on. Hey NJA Owner how come your so smart but ya couldn't even spell Berkshire? Check out the title of your post "Bershire." I never heard of that company. You losers crack me up.

I'll tell you what is funny.....When douche bag NJA Owner shows up for his flight and I pull out the write up that I have been carrying for the last two days and ground the airplane just before his trip. After waiting at the FBO for hours the poor dumbass gets chartered out on some piece of crap vendor that has a piss poor safety record and his catering gets lost and some of his bags don't get loaded. Now thats some funny stuff!!! HA HA..

Still Ass Clown won't debate or even educate himself about the true financial reports of this company. If you don't have the balls to ask for a raise then that's your fault. It is clear you have no clue about union matters. Maybe you should go attack the mechanics they are union too. Most professional dispatchers belong to a union.

As I told you in this thread:
http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=641071#post641071

I think I'll side with dispatcherNJA on this one....there's no way you are a NetJets pilot because the vast majority of the ones I know would never debase themselves the way you have on this board....

 

[been-there]

the right thing to do.

"The right thing to do" is going to lead to a smoking hole. I hope you fools in cmh are ready for that. You are causing an UNSAFE work enviroment.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Question:

But will those employees really want to stay when they find out that the only sizable raises make under a new contract were to them, as a group of new hires? Don't you think that they will eventually want to make more than $38k for working 17-18 days per month? To invision themselves being a long term employee, they will want to earn considerably more than that in the future, just as today's Netjet guys do--remember, they were once new hires, too!

The stategy you've suggested--raise new hire pay to get bodies in the jets, but restrict pay over time--is one that will promote turnover, NOT stability and long term employment...or is that the REAL stategy?

BTW...interesting use of "the right thing to do..."

My understanding is that the current proposal has raises ranging from 23% to 40%, depending on seniority and position, with the larger number going to the new hires. If 23% is the minimum raise, then I think that meets the definition of 'sizable'.

BB used the quote 'the right thing to do....' in his letter that was posted on the intranet concerning the company's offer to raise new hire pay....

 

[VmaxFlyR]

Details & The Devil

My understanding is that the current proposal has raises ranging from 23% to 40%, depending on seniority and position, with the larger number going to the new hires. If 23% is the minimum raise, then I think that meets the definition of 'sizable'.

I won't get into an exchange with you as to whether the 23-40% raise figure is really accurate, but I can be confident that the cost of living ALONE has eaten up just over 18% of any additional money since 1998...

http://www.aier.org/cgi-aier/colcalculator.cgi

So what you're really talking about, if your figures are accurate, are 5-22% raises in real (2005) dollars.

Question:
Are the proposed raises indexed? Nope? Then that guy who will be a 5 year Captain 3 years from now will be looking at probably a -3% (decrease) to a +14% (increase) in Real Wages in 2008...

Is that same guy going to have to work more days for that raise? How about working any more hours in a day?

What about the status of his benefit package?


The devil is often in the details--could be a reason the netjets pilots aren't too excited about that latest proposal!

 

[dsptchrnja]

My understanding is that the current proposal has raises ranging from 23% to 40%, depending on seniority and position, with the larger number going to the new hires. If 23% is the minimum raise, then I think that meets the definition of 'sizable'.

I won't get into an exchange with you as to whether the 23-40% raise figure is really accurate, but I can be confident that the cost of living ALONE has eaten up just over 18% of any additional money since 1998...

http://www.aier.org/cgi-aier/colcalculator.cgi

So what you're really talking about, if your figures are accurate, are 5-22% raises in real (2005) dollars.

Question:
Are the proposed raises indexed? Nope? Then that guy who will be a 5 year Captain 3 years from now will be looking at probably a -3% (decrease) to a +14% (increase) in Real Wages in 2008...

Is that same guy going to have to work more days for that raise? How about working any more hours in a day?

What about the status of his benefit package?


The devil is often in the details--could be a reason the netjets pilots aren't too excited about that latest proposal!

Do your figures account for the 7-12% raise pilots get every year? Everyone knows no pilot is making the same amount he or she was making in 1998 just because a new contract hasn't gone through.

 

[steel]

Some dude-



Keep it going...I’m not everyone. We all know family guy "ain't gonna confess". We also know what he does for a living. We also know he knows nothing of the operation including NJ services. We also know he has not posted solutions. We also know that asking anyone in the puzzle palace knows who Dubinsky is. We see him spreading propaganda on this board to try and throw us off. He has no effect on the strong. He does a great service to the strong willed when we know his sole purpose is to rebut truths with half truths and "spins". He will be defeated. We will win.

 

[TurboJetCpt]

I am still amazed that people are STILL answering DUMBESTWIFE and DUMBASSDISPATCHER. Do you not understand that these are just trolls ? Check yourself and let them stew.

 

[Sun Tzu]

The only thing misleading on this forum is you familyguy. A 5th year captain is only going to see about a 8.2% raise. Even at 40% an new FO will only be at $37,800 with no upgrade in sight. I didnt see anything in the proposal that gave a 40% raise. A 10 year Captain will never make what a new JB captain makes. It is not a bunch of Union militants that are making misleading and disparaging attacks. That is coming from you. We are just telling our side of the story to counter the lies being spread here. You have no credibility and you never will.

 

[Sun Tzu]

Just checked the facts a few minutes ago.

Netjets has added 165 pilots to the seniority list since Jan 1 throug Jun 3.

Netjets has lost 50 pilots since 1 Jan 05.

Total gain of 115 pilots for 6 months of training. It's going to be hard to meet even 300 additional pilots before the year end.